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DrStephen

My PhD is made out of foam.
You wouldn't yell at a kid for colouring outside of the lines, or drawing a blue flower with yellow leaves, so so what if this Eevee mod is a little bit fantastical? Just leave it alone and move on.

Contrary to popular belief, the "just rate it 1 star and leave" mentality is actually less helpful than "harsh" criticism.

Criticism, constructive or not, should give the creator an idea of what to change for the future. It should help them learn, help them grow and make bigger, better things. While I do agree that just saying "it sucks" doesn't help at all, ignoring it doesn't even give the creator the attention they deserve for having finished a big project like a whole character addon.
In this case, Frostiikin did give actual feedback about how the abilities didn't exactly fit an Eevee and even suggested an ability. I really can't see this as "yelling at a kid" or unconstructive criticism.

While the creator does have a point that they can indeed do whatever they want to do with their character, they're also discarding criticism which is more hurtful for them than it is for us.

As for the topic itself, I congratulate you for sitting down and finishing the 200 or so sprites of Eevee, that is a commendable effort if anything - but I do echo Frostii's comment about the abilities not fitting.
 

little guy*

A guy who loves Adventures!
I have to agree with DrStephen and Frostiikin. The only thing original here is the D A B and the sprites. A bit more effort is needed, because most of the appeal is the abilities that are already on the MB.

Making all of your own sprites are nice, but if the character itself doesn't have an interesting playstyle, what's the point?

My suggestion is to make something more original. Something exclusive to Eevee, not just a silly dab and call it.
 

Frostiikin

Insert funny hahas here
Look, I've come under fire for being needlessly critical on the forums lately too and lemme tell you something. There is no divine right bestowed upon you to cast judgement upon this character, and nobody is under any obligation to do as you say.

This isn't about you. It does not hurt you by simply existing, and there are more constructive ways to offer feedback than this.

You wouldn't yell at a kid for colouring outside of the lines, or drawing a blue flower with yellow leaves, so so what if this Eevee mod is a little bit fantastical? Just leave it alone and move on.

You're acting like I was just relentlessly shitting on this mod. I didn't say anything like "the sprites are shit, go redo them now you fucking idiot", "these abilities are a fucking joke", etc. No, In fact, I wasn't really even mean at all. I just said what I thought could be done to improve the character. That's about as constructive as it gets. What people like you and Prof. Eevee don't tend to understand is that in order to give constructive criticism, you must actually be critical of something, which involves pointing out it's flaws. This doesn't mean you need to be rude while doing so, but it is a necessary part of giving feedback on something. How am I supposed to tell someone what I think should be improved without pointing out it's flaws? And before you say that I shouldn't have been giving criticism in the first place, the fact that i've gotten criticism from things that i've released in the past, regardless of said things' quality and my attitude at the time is what's turned me into the modder I am today. I'm not gonna say my stuff's absolutely incredible or anything, i still have a long ways to go, but if you want pure proof of how far good criticism goes, take a look at this.
comparison-export.png



Both of these are sprites done by yours truly. The one on the left is one that I made very soon after I joined this community (around 9 or so months ago), and the one on the right is one that I recently made within the last two months. If I hadn't had anyone there to tell me what I did wrong, and what I could improve, I'd still be at the same level I was when I made the one on the left today. This is why I care so much about giving people legitimate criticism, it helps you grow as a creator, and what I want the most from all these younger folks creating characters and releasing them is for them to grow, and learn from these projects. I have no doubts that with time, Prof. Eevee could become someone capable of reaching the level even people like Roach and Alice are at, if he was willing to put in the time and effort. Anyways, sorry for the rant.

TL,DR: Constructive criticism is a necessary step in helping any creator, new or old improve, regardless of the medium. Whether they listen to it or not, simply having that be accessible to them is incredibly important for helping them grow.
 
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Charybdizs

>WTB lamp oil
Administrator
Judge
Right, so:

Yes, Frostii does have the right to express criticism here. As long as she does so politely, that's cool. It's when it turns into mocking, tearing people down without much for them to work on, or entitlement, that there's a problem.

Frostiikin said:
This still has every single problem that I outlined in dms with you on discord.

I don't see much of what Frostii wrote as inherently problematic, but this line is not very friendly. The subtext in it is "you NEEDED to take my criticism, why would you release this without doing so?" which is kinda entitled :V

Starting off with this kinda put a bad light on the rest of your very legitimate criticisms, is how I see it, and probably what upset the author.


A few more notes:

little guy said:
I have to agree with DrStephen and Frostiikin. The only thing original here is the D A B and the sprites. A bit more effort is needed, because most of the appeal is the abilities that are already on the MB.

Making all of your own sprites are nice, but if the character itself doesn't have an interesting playstyle, what's the point?

There's two problems with this criticism:

#1: No, more effort is not "needed" -- this is something the artist chose to do for their fun, they can polish it however much or little as they want, they can leave it half finished if they so choose. It was definitely suitable for releases!

#2: It's not a stretch to say that they may have just wanted a custom skin. That's what the point is! The ability might be important to you, but it might not be important to the author, and it doesn't need to be. Not to say none of the suggestions in this thread don't have *merit* mind you, but the truth is if they just wanted to play Sonic but look like Eevee, that's actually okay.

izzy said:
You mean your Sonic?

This is a super lame comment to make. Don't be the peanut gallery dude chiming in with useless comments like this. :V
Characters take a hell of a lot of work to make, so demeaning it entirely just because it doesn't have a custom ability is a really stupid take.
 

Rafael44642

Member
Ok, i worked on this project and what I'm about to say is kinda stupid but this was some interesting conversation about criticism as it also helped me grown as a spriter. Not to say that Professor Eevee didn't do the sprites well or anything like that but he at least remained original to the mod he made in Sonic 3 AIR (which for some reason has a Legacy Rafael there or I'm crazy and been halucinating cause i did not make a sonic 3 air mod) and yeah, it takes soo long to make a character, even if it doesn't look good (again, not to say that its bad, just an example) and some of the Eevee abilities were ported and "remade" by us. I can agree that it has its pros and cons and the fact that saying that this is just sonic or a pointy sonic clone or that the dab isn't original (since pointy used it but that doesn't mean the creator invented the dab) is kinda unnecessary since some people don't know about Pointy Sonic cause nobody ported him to 2.2 and they didn't play 2.1 but thats not the point. (It's not that your opinion was trash Frostii, it was good and the example you showed was fantastic) We are now working on a next version for this Eevee here, i still think he is fun to play besides his cons and that Professor Eevee will be a good modder in the future if he works hard and yeah, this conversation defenetly taugh that we can give constructive criticism but that it can't be that harsh but it also can't be the opposite. (or it could idk)
 

I'll Begin

🐑✨
You're acting like I was just relentlessly shitting on this mod. I didn't say anything [specifically harsh]. I just said what I thought could be done to improve the character.

Okay, yeah, I'll concede on that, but you were still making it about you, and you've continued to do so. Bringing your trauma and your own work into this is really not necessary. Maybe I don't spend enough time in this subforum, but I haven't seen you speak with this level of unearned authority about other mods.

Like, I dunno, like Chary said, considering you approached this with "we tried to HELP you and you IGNORED us", it's really not a good look. Feels like basically all the premier character mod makers jumping in against this kid in here for not conforming to some arbitrary style guide. Flashbacks to the 1.09.4 era and Super Mystic Sonic, anyone?

And you are right, constructive criticism is key and it's not your fault if the creator doesn't want to listen. Again, I lack context from the Discord too, but it seems to me like Prof Eevee responding this harshly to you was the sign of a bigger issue. That's where I got the impression that you were hounding them. Perhaps a hasty assumption on my part.
 

Rafael44642

Member
Flashbacks to the 1.09.4 era and Super Mystic Sonic, anyone?

And you are right, constructive criticism is key and it's not your fault if the creator doesn't want to listen. Again, I lack context from the Discord too, but it seems to me like Prof Eevee responding this harshly to you was the sign of a bigger issue. That's where I got the impression that you were hounding them. Perhaps a hasty assumption on my part.

Yeah, i might not have been on those but i could imagine the war that happened in those times, also were working on a next version for Eevee and that Professor Eevee took the constructive criticism. It was appreciated that you guys commented on this since it helps recognise some error that we've could have forgot or some other stuff and i think that if we continue to comment on this it might turn into a hot thread about Eevee and the criticism he's been given without even us knowing.
 

tropluckyfr

bri-ish begginer
im happy to see that you managed to make air eevee a thing in the mb i loved to test him on ur server and im sure he will stay to be a good character
 

TelosTurntable

How the turns have tel- tab-
... I'll stop this before it starts.

Frostii, while I'm sure your intent is to be constructive -- I also want to see others grow -- it can be crushing if all you get is negatives (also, it may pay to invest in some line breaks, that blurb is a bit tough to swallow.) It's true that criticism is useful, but if you're nothing outside of critical, you'll shatter their work instead of refining it. Also, don't get too hostile about having the criticism rejected: that'll muddy your intent, making sure it's not listened to at all.
That aside, Eevee, don't take it to heart. Actual criticism, rough or not, means that frostii believes you're capable of growing even further. Think of it as... a rose dressed in thorns. Do what you want with that rose, though, you're not obligated to grow for anyone.

... wait, I never stated my own thoughts? Eh!? Ah, I'm glad to see that you were able to push through the excessive task of creating all of the character sprites. I'm interested in seeing what you'll pull off next.
 

Frostiikin

Insert funny hahas here
Okay, yeah, I'll concede on that, but you were still making it about you, and you've continued to do so. Bringing your trauma and your own work into this is really not necessary. Maybe I don't spend enough time in this subforum, but I haven't seen you speak with this level of unearned authority about other mods.

Like, I dunno, like Chary said, considering you approached this with "we tried to HELP you and you IGNORED us", it's really not a good look. Feels like basically all the premier character mod makers jumping in against this kid in here for not conforming to some arbitrary style guide. Flashbacks to the 1.09.4 era and Super Mystic Sonic, anyone?

And you are right, constructive criticism is key and it's not your fault if the creator doesn't want to listen. Again, I lack context from the Discord too, but it seems to me like Prof Eevee responding this harshly to you was the sign of a bigger issue. That's where I got the impression that you were hounding them. Perhaps a hasty assumption on my part.

Yeah, i might not have been on those but i could imagine the war that happened in those times, also were working on a next version for Eevee and that Professor Eevee took the constructive criticism. It was appreciated that you guys commented on this since it helps recognise some error that we've could have forgot or some other stuff and i think that if we continue to comment on this it might turn into a hot thread about Eevee and the criticism he's been given without even us knowing.


EDIT: Charyb told me to remove screenshots of the actual dms. I'll just describe the basic gist of what happened instead.



Alright, I'll provide the context of the discord dm.


Basically, what happened in the dms is that I'd contacted him regarding the version of this mod that is on gamebanana (which mind you, is identical to the version uploaded here) in order to try to help him come up with some ideas for a more unique moveset involving evolution, eevee's main gimmick in the pokemon series, and to point him in the direction of roach's spriting tutorial. His response was essentially that this eevee was his "oc", and that the sprites had a "charm" to them, and that it was his first time spriting, which was not the point I was trying to make at all.


The main part I was disappointed about was not the fact that he didn't use my ability idea specifically, but that he still kept the sonic moveset and still didn't look at roach's tutorial (the sprites are the exact same as the gamebanana version).
My main purpose behind the post version was making it blatantly clear what I thought could be improved with this mod, since I may have been a bit vague in the dm.



About me bringing up things i've made, the point of that was not to make this about me, it was to show why I care so much about people having access to actual criticism. I've grown so much thanks to the help of others, and I just want that option to be there for others. I've stated previously on this thread that whether he actually listens to this stuff or not is up to him, I simply want him to have access to criticism, which is personally something I struggled to get any legitimate form of with my art for a very long time.

Regarding me bringing up personal stuff, I'll admit, that was pretty inappropriate. I'm still not gonna get into it, but I was an absolute wreck when I wrote that part of this all, something devastating had just happened irl, and I was not in a mental state where I should've been writing... well, anything.

You write as if listing everything wrong with a mod in extensive detail is "constructive criticism". Creators are not obligated to listen to criticism (especially if it's written like that), and they are definitely not obligated to fit your idea of "good" perfectly.

Again, already said that people aren't obligated to actually listen to the things I've said, but seriously how the fuck do you tell someone what you think could be improved with a mod without outlining it's flaws? Also, even with it's flaws, I explicitly stated that even managing to do all the angles for a full character wad is a commendable effort. Many characters that have been released here didn't even do that much cough fehn cough, and as such, it's great that he atleast followed through with doing every angle.
 
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Othius

[A person in a place]
Contest Winner🏆
I understand that you want to help but when you go to this lengths it seems more like you want his eevee to be what you want it to be, rather than what he wants to be.

He's content with it being subpar compared to the other sprites. That's perfectly okay! No need to make a fuss about it, or to prove yourself or anything. He wants to play by his own rules and the more you go against that the more it looks worse for you.

And if it really bothers you that much you can make your own. (Nah that was a bit of a cop-out answer lol)
 

Charybdizs

>WTB lamp oil
Administrator
Judge
Right, move along guys. There's actually nothing more to discuss here, extending it just is weird and tense and not what I imagine the author wants on their thread. :V Frostii already got poked in the right direction, as did the author of this character wad. There's no reason this discussion needed to be anything more than

"Hey, Frostii, you're being a little harsh, why not phrase your criticisms in a friendlier way"

"Oh, my bad, can do."
 

Pc-98 Fan

Back to play SRB2 again!
I would like to mention a little tip for you, so here it is: I recommend that you ask someone who is helping you to do an improved version of the character info, so people understand the content and the abilities much better
 

Jer

Lua Beginner
I think the point of the mod is to BE terrible, and that's why it's good.

(Don't quote me on this)
 

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