[Open Assets] Super Mystic Sonic [SMSreborn v3-2: Boundless] v3-2

[Sinny33]

Beauty at its Kid Icarus

 

[CyberKnux]

Beauty at its Kid Icarus

uhhh ok i guess what were you trying to say?

 

[Rapid]

I absolutely love the new sprites he has. His new playstyle definitely has made alot of improvements.

 

[frozenLake]

Something I do have to ask, is for it to be made a bit more obvious that there is more than one page of options in the menus. I only stumbled upon the SMSBlast option by /accident/.

 

[Twins'R'Okay]

This is the first character that had me say, out aloud:
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

This thing is so ridiculously overpowered, I love it, and when you get the hang of it, it can be fun to traverse around the level at light speed.

Keyphrase: When you get the hang of it

I like this thing, but the control scheme is very cumbersome to deal with and I feel that this character can be more fun to play if you can figure out how to narrow his controls down to two or three buttons.

In other words, obey the game design principle of K.I.S.S

Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid.

 

[So2ro]

Alright, it seems sms has a pretty major issue regarding his inputs and no it isnt it being complicated, if anything i love it
The problem is that, SMS seems to eat inputs that involve using mouse clicks:

In the gif above you can see that im jumping three times, and in the third i transform in sms im in battlemod, but it still applies to vanilla SMS, every time i jump i press the tossring button (currently left mouse click for me), you'd think that if im doing what i said i should be able to turn into sms in the first jump, however because of this issue, i cant ,so i have to rely most of the time on smashing tossring until it works.

Heres another gif of me doing the same thing but trying to use his flames attack i cant for life remember the name rn:

My other complaint, albeit minor, is that when changing the controls to simple haymaker, on control aids it still shows it as the back+c1 input.
Also it would be nice if we could change the homing attack to make it so i dont have to hold spin in midair to do it, basically swapping the thok and homing attack places.

 

[izzy]

I like this thing, but the control scheme is very cumbersome to deal with and I feel that this character can be more fun to play if you can figure out how to narrow his controls down to two or three buttons.

In other words, obey the game design principle of K.I.S.S

Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid.

I feel the same way about SMS, there's also some moves that would only be useful in levels actually designed for SMS (i.e. giant boss with weak spots you have to reveal with flametoss).

 

[time gear]

I feel the same way about SMS, there's also some moves that would only be useful in levels actually designed for SMS (i.e. giant boss with weak spots you have to reveal with flametoss).

I actually really like the idea of a giant boss with weak spots. I would love to see something like that make it into vanilla SRB2 one day. Something kinda like the Egg Golem from SA2.

 

[izzy]

I actually really like the idea of a giant boss with weak spots. I would love to see something like that make it into vanilla SRB2 one day. Something kinda like the Egg Golem from SA2.

Bingo, buddy. Exactly what I remembered when I was thinking of the example.

 

[Golden Shine]

You people have been exceptionally nice about this, thank you so much!

• I'll remove some of the excess flashes from HMS. They're not as opaque / jarring in-game as they are in GIFs, that's just a strange quirk of GIF recordings, but I don't want either method to give people seizures.
• I hear people about their difficulty with the amount of buttons. With SMScontrols not mentioning alternate controls, I'm not too surprised. I'll bring out tutorials soon to hopefully rectify this!
• Not having tested this in multiplayer often before release, I appreciate any bugs being reported for the bugfix update and will try to fix what I can!
• Lag varies wildly from person to person due to the way SRB2 handles only your CPU. I'll see about optimizing the script for performance if I can. Until then.....if you experience lag, I suggest turning off HMS in busy netgames(I didn't design this to work laglessly with a dozen HMS' at once), turning the SMS graphics setting to low, and switching your renderer to OpenGL!
• If there's a demand, I might revise SMS' "white outline" glow to instead use the same more fancy method the Mystic Emerald has. This'll take time, however.

As great as this mod is, one cannot understate how much the amount of buttons you need to press sucks

There's already a control scheme like that in the official release. The issue with yours is that it forces players to deal with the limitations that come from a simplified control scheme when the point of SMSreborn is to allow unhindered potential.

Plus, putting abilities that stop/slow your momentum on the same button as the sprint makes no sense. And by removing the multi-homing thok you miss out on the advantages of a slow multithok on a character that desperately needs the extra control over his speed and direction, especially in smaller spaces.

Give me some time to release the SMS tutorials first so the simplified control schemes can come to light before remaking the controls on day 1.

... Have you considered just giving SMS a multi-thok instead? I'd be fine with that.

There's an option in the menu for "SMSblast mode", which lets you play like SMSunleashed, a simpler playstyle that has an instant boost which barely gets punished for hitting walls and also has the multi speed thok.

...then it hit me that the HMS music is a remix of Clownpiece's theme song.

5 stars out of 5, would Lunatic Time again.

Exactly, screw Inazuma's music taste. :P

I feel the same way about SMS, there's also some moves that would only be useful in levels actually designed for SMS (i.e. giant boss with weak spots you have to reveal with flametoss).

SMS' flames are mainly there for the competitive modes this time around, you can simply use them in coop for practice. I DID have to nerf SMS' startring-count in bossfights because it was op, though, so I wouldn't call it "useless".

Battle

Spoiler

The overall design ethos of the character in Battle makes enough sense -- the player must collect 30 rings as a standard Sonic with a nerfed thok and no Super Jump / Ground Pounds, and once he transforms, he completely sacrifices any ability to use shields. In theory, this makes SMS the most fragile character in the game, and it forces downtime on the player every time they get hit.

The issue is that the downsides need to be proportional to the strengths, and while on any other character this could be potentially crippling, SMS has such an incredible toolkit that a skilled player can potentially negate these downsides with ease. For example: his mobility is extremely dominant, which means he can control the terms of engagement easily; he has at least one projectile at any given moment, which gives him a method of applying pressure against defensive characters; his standard homing attack, while possible to be countered by certain melee attacks, applies incredible amounts of pressure against some characters due to its lack of downtime when clashing against attacks.

This is all to neglect mentioning Hyper Mystic Sonic, which, while rare, can lead to SMS completely shutting down any possible attempt at engagement on a Control Point due to its lethality, area of influence, and the duration of the attack.

One move that I absolutely cannot stand is the Comet Haymaker and how it interacts with enemy players by forcing them to respond to a Quick Time Event. Never do this in an online environment like SRB2's. Any player that's sitting above 115 ping is simply trashed due to the fact they physically cannot respond in time to defend against the attack. And even if that weren't the case, it's impossible for me to describe just how obnoxious it to be on the receiving end of this, as I get BTFO'd and my extra shields removed at random if I get hit, and I'm pretty much just forced to respond to a single move in SMS's kit with an arbitrary button press which is completely detached from the rest of the game's logic or physics. Furthermore, I don't understand what the appropriate counterplay is supposed to be for a move like this, since he's apparently invulnerable for the duration of this attack and all you can do is QTE if you want to avoid it; based on what I've seen from its abuse online, my current assumption is that there isn't a counterplay.

With all of this on the table, losing shield abilities and asking the player to recollect thirty rings when they get hit really isn't a big ask. For comparison, Tails requires thirty rings just to carry his maximum amount of buzz sentries, and while that allows him to apply a decent amount of pressure safely, it's nowhere near as powerful as what SMS's thirty rings allows him to do. And once Sonic transforms, the challenge becomes about being able to hit him at all, and while this is possibly more doable in modes like CTF and CP which have centralized objectives, an additional +25 points is something of a joke reward in Battle -- especially since a rival SMS is probably going to get those points off of him anyway.

There are counter-relationships to the character as-is, though it's a bit situationally dependent. Amy is a great counter-pick since her twinspin out-prioritizes SMS's homing attack and her charm beam de-transforms SMS entirely. Fang's cork is largely ineffective against an aggressive SMS, but his bombs are fairly decent at playing keep-away. Metal Sonic cannot catch SMS, but he can at least tank hits and retaliate with energy blasts in close quarters. On the flipside, vanilla Sonic seems to be at a total loss, as SMS's homing attack does not seem to suffer downtime during conflicts. Tails vs SMS is something of a stalemate. I haven't had enough time to gauge Knuckles' relationship.

In summary, the core transformation and anti-shield system applied to SMS is actually a good system to use for him, but there are certain variables and attributes to his collective toolkit that I think need to be re-examined before I could ever personally consider adding him onto one of my servers.

• Comet Haymaker outright needs to be removed from his options or its player interaction entirely redesigned for these modes, and the homing attack ought to have enforced downtime when hitting foes.
• SMS players should not receive any points bonus for de-transforming an enemy SMS, since all this is doing right now is encouraging SMS players to farm off of each other for points. Additionally I would consider raising the reward from 75 to 100 points to make the cost-benefit more proportional. (After all, de-transforming SMS is basically akin to "killing" him, isn't it?)
• I would reduce HMS's transform time from 20 seconds to 8-10 seconds. That's still plenty of time to clear out an area and kill at least a couple people, 20 seconds is just complete overkill.
• I would consider upping the initial transform requirement from 30 rings to 50 rings.

Bear in mind that balance for competitive multiplayer is largely a matter of trial and error. I must have updated Battle something like fifty times since its initial release, and many of the changes I make are due to balance considerations. As critical as my analysis may seem, it's kind of a feat that SMS is even as balanced as it is on its release. I am not sure how aware you were aware of the shield stacking system I added in a recent update, but this at least partially helped to make SMS's glassy nature more apparent. His biggest issue in the format right now is simply that the strengths still outweigh the weaknesses, and I would attribute this largely due to a few of his moves having polarizing qualities to them that don't suit the format very well. But making him actually balanced for the mode, at this point, seems surprisingly doable.

My thoughts

Spoiler

About battle mode...I haven't had the chance much to test with many players, only very experienced testers in private tests. I wish to give it a bit more time before re-balancing, though so far in my experiences, SMS has come out balanced to underpowered in actual practice. For example, I don't think the Haymaker will be nearly as much of an issue in the long run as it is in your first impression.

Whether you dodge the haymaker isn't a reactive thing, it's a predictive response. It's always the same button inputs, and you can mash the jump+spin with no punishment even before the prompt shows making lag a non-issue. SMS players show very telling and repetitive behavior when they're setting up a haymaker, which I'm 100% certain you'll learn to recognize if you're getting irritated by how often players try to spam it if think they can get away with it. When you consider SMS drains rings to boost at all in Battle Mode, risks running into spinning players/projectiles/traps(which you really don't want to do when you have 1 hit), and is vulnerable after the attack. The haymaker is an awesome surprise attack for players ignoring you with a huge payoff, but once muscle memory and caution set in for other players, it's very ineffective and needs to be used sparingly.

HMS is absolutely broken, but does come at a cost even if you succeed. You can't casually pick 300 rings up over a long game or snatch them all from some player like emeralds. You have to be SMS for a long time, actively avoid getting potential points from risky fighting, AND survive an entire server hunting you down if you get 200+ rings. Now you do all that, and you successfully outright murder 3 people as HMS despite them running and hiding those 20 seconds. That's 300 points gained. Despite 20 seconds of complete domination, the gains aren't that huge compared to the risks. And yes, a bigger server means bigger point rewards for HMS, but that also means less rings to collect and more risk of losing them. I definitely gotta make him unable to use control points, though....

And finally SMS, definitely the most dangerous character on the field when transformed. But that does go both ways. As just Sonic, he's slow and can be easily chased and bullied into constant submission with very little in the way of fighting back. You could be combo'd by a really skilled player just as a skilled SMS might get alot of use out of his powers. But right now, I most often see people become SMS, and get 1 or 2 hits in before detransforming. The person who hits you get 75 points, and for the 30 rings it takes to go SMS, I'd say you need at least 150 points to really say it was worth it. I think the biggest risk of a balance issue actually lies in the charging flames, which lays fire traps and is a competent explosive projectile at the cost of 5 rings. But when the broken elemental shield exists, I'm not sure yet.

I think SMS in theory has all the potential to be the most broken of the "balanced" cast, but especially right now, people are far too clumsy to reach up to that. So I want to see how this goes in practice a little longer before rushing into changes!

 

[izzy]

shine really bouta turn us all into SMS gods as a response to control complaints



small note, the multithok comment was a joke about how gigantic sms reborn's moveset is

 

[clairebun]

Spoiler: Battle

About battle mode...I haven't had the chance much to test with many players, only very experienced testers in private tests. I wish to give it a bit more time before re-balancing, though so far in my experiences, SMS has come out balanced to underpowered in actual practice. For example, I don't think the Haymaker will be nearly as much of an issue in the long run as it is in your first impression.

Whether you dodge the haymaker isn't a reactive thing, it's a predictive response. It's always the same button inputs, and you can mash the jump+spin with no punishment even before the prompt shows making lag a non-issue. SMS players show very telling and repetitive behavior when they're setting up a haymaker, which I'm 100% certain you'll learn to recognize if you're getting irritated by how often players try to spam it if think they can get away with it. When you consider SMS drains rings to boost at all in Battle Mode, risks running into spinning players/projectiles/traps(which you really don't want to do when you have 1 hit), and is vulnerable after the attack. The haymaker is an awesome surprise attack for players ignoring you with a huge payoff, but once muscle memory and caution set in for other players, it's very ineffective and needs to be used sparingly.

Assuming everything you say is true, then the haymaker's effectiveness is inversely proportional to enemy awareness. I would raise the counterpoint that this further encourages SMS to feed off of less-experienced players, which breaks him in battles with higher player counts.

Meta aside, my central complaint is with the QTE, which simply is not an enjoyable mechanic for Battle's gameplay format. The balance aspect, while serious, is still less annoying than the actual QTE itself.

HMS is absolutely broken, but does come at a cost even if you succeed. You can't casually pick 300 rings up over a long game or snatch them all from some player like emeralds. You have to be SMS for a long time, actively avoid getting potential points from risky fighting, AND survive an entire server hunting you down if you get 200+ rings. Now you do all that, and you successfully outright murder 3 people as HMS despite them running and hiding those 20 seconds. That's 300 points gained. Despite 20 seconds of complete domination, the gains aren't that huge compared to the risks. And yes, a bigger server means bigger point rewards for HMS, but that also means less rings to collect and more risk of losing them. I definitely gotta make him unable to use control points, though....

I think even if you make HMS incapable of capturing points, this would still be an issue in Team Control Point, because while HMS is tossing up a storm, the rest of the team can use those twenty seconds to get an easy free capture. TCP is also the sort of environment where it's easier to gain HMS, because the mode's mechanics encourage players to focus less on each other and more on the objective. Since most people use the resting periods to replenish their resources, it's the perfect format for SMS to farm rings behind the scenes whilst avoiding conflict as necessary.

This is not to say 300 rings isn't a huge barrier, because it certainly is and it makes the transformation that much more eventful due to its rarity. The reason I recommended reducing the duration rather than the lethality, is because I'm totally okay with HMS wrecking face; I just think the duration of the event should be moderated so that it doesn't disrupt specialized mode objectives as severely.

And finally SMS, definitely the most dangerous character on the field when transformed. But that does go both ways. As just Sonic, he's slow and can be easily chased and bullied into constant submission with very little in the way of fighting back. You could be combo'd by a really skilled player just as a skilled SMS might get alot of use out of his powers. But right now, I most often see people become SMS, and get 1 or 2 hits in before detransforming. The person who hits you get 75 points, and for the 30 rings it takes to go SMS, I'd say you need at least 150 points to really say it was worth it. I think the biggest risk of a balance issue actually lies in the charging flames, which lays fire traps and is a competent explosive projectile at the cost of 5 rings. But when the broken elemental shield exists, I'm not sure yet.

I think SMS in theory has all the potential to be the most broken of the "balanced" cast, but especially right now, people are far too clumsy to reach up to that. So I want to see how this goes in practice a little longer before rushing into changes!

See, that's totally fair and I don't particularly disagree with this assessment.

Up until now, there has only been one Battle character who has held such an emphasis on extended periods of downtime and uptime -- and that character is Eggpack, who requires 60 rings and preptime in order to get a powerful sentry turret that lays waste to the surrounding area and just causes all sorts of ruckus. But whenever that sentry is down, Eggman is just a big lumbering oaf that players can just throw around if they happen to catch him.

SMS in Battle is an amplification of that sort of character archetype, where his stock Sonic form is a literal nobody; no abilities and a more garbage thok, and then you get the powerhouse of SMS, the objectively most powerful character in the game but with the worst survivability. The thing I especially love about the execution of this is that base Sonic can still keep shields in stock! So there's a strategic element here where the player can choose to preserve his rings and instead rely on his core/shield abilities for as long as possible, only transforming when the moment is right or Sonic has lost all of his shields. I sincerely do love this sort of game design, and I think this particular aspect of SMS is executed quite well!

At the end of the day, I think that the challenge SMS is faced with in terms of mode balance is that his toolkit is extremely vast -- and as players continue to exeriment and adapt, dominant strategies begin to emerge. Enemy players may adapt, but even as they do so, they still have to contend with the fact that SMS has more options than anyone else in the cast. Therefore, I think SMS will inevitably stay on top of other characters' attempts to adapt simply because SMS is the most adaptable of all characters.

This is all fine and well so long as every tool in his kit has adequate counterplays or limits. The reason why so many players are faceplanting as SMS at the moment is largely due to the complexity of his toolkit rather than any sort of incompetitiveness on the characters' part. I have played Battle servers as Fang in a sea of SMS players and occasionally have come out on top -- but for every one time that I do so, there are multiple instances where one SMS player gets 4x the number of points as the next best player. As a non-SMS player, I cannot catch up to SMS's sheer speed, and so if SMS chooses not to engage with me, then there is nothing I can do to pick up the lead.

I think it's totally fair to wait for more data to come in before making any adjustments. But please take my above recommendations as possible pressure points in the character's design to watch out for -- in particular, I believe denying SMS from receiving a +25 bonus for hitting other SMS players would encourage them to engage more frequently with non-SMS characters. Second, Comet Haymaker appears to be the most obvious point of polarity, so its current PvP interaction at least ought to be reconsidered. The rest is largely tertiary.

 

[BomberBlur07]

Wow, it looks awesome. Literally. Sadly, I could never understand the Custom1, Custom2, and Custom3 buttons, or even the buttons in general, even if I have aid on. Can I get some help?

 

[Icarus]

Wow, it looks awesome. Literally. Sadly, I could never understand the Custom1, Custom2, and Custom3 buttons, or even the buttons in general, even if I have aid on. Can I get some help?

You need to bind them in the controls menu (at the very end of it).

 

[riha]

Wow, I didn't actually think it was possible to add custom menu's.

 

[SMS Alfredo]

There's already a control scheme like that in the official release.

Yes, I am aware of the SMSBlast mode, but the thing is, that mode doesn't fix any of the problems SMS's control scheme has for a player who wants to use less buttons. That mode, in essence, is just SMSReborn, but you can only use the Jump, Spin, and Custom 1 buttons, the ability to wall jump is removed, and the boost works differently. Really, at that point, you're better off just playing without SMSBlast mode on, but with only those 3 buttons mapped.
I think SMSBlast mode, as a legacy control scheme option, is great. But as a way for players to not to have to use any many buttons? Horrible. Playing with the mode off and just using those same buttons has the exact same effect, if not better. I personally think there needs to be a new control mode that actually fixes some of the control problems, rather than essentially just brushing them under the carpet.

The issue with yours is that it forces players to deal with the limitations that come from a simplified control scheme when the point of SMSreborn is to allow unhindered potential.

You know what? You're right, it does do that. I really don't know why I thought it could just replace SMS's basic control scheme. However, I bet it could be an optional alternative control scheme similar to that of SMSBlast. This way, players who want to have those limitations on them in exchange for a simplified control scheme can have it, while those who want to really use SMS to his full potential can simply have it off. It's a win-win for everyone involved.

Plus, putting abilities that stop/slow your momentum on the same button as the sprint makes no sense.

You're also right here too...I was trying to make it so SMS used three primary buttons, and really the Boost had no where else to go after I moved the Triple Sweepkick and Atomic Dive to Custom 1. Maybe instead you could put the Boost on Custom 2, but make it a toggle instead of a hold action? That would make it so if Custom 2 is almost out of reach for a player, it won't be too much of an issue. But, honestly, this whole thing would be alot easier if I could just get rid of SMS's ability to roll while moving and replace that with the Triple Sweepkick. But I doubt anyone would actually want that.

And by removing the multi-homing thok you miss out on the advantages of a slow multithok on a character that desperately needs the extra control over his speed and direction, especially in smaller spaces.

Hmm, how about if you don't press any movement keys/keep the control stick neutral when thokking it turns into that slow multi-thok? And then you could keep all the other changes I made. Although...hmm, not sure if that's the best idea, but it's the only one I can think of that fits with the control scheme I came up with.
Maybe instead the stomp could cancel all your momentum like how Modern's stomp works? Ehh...that would also prevent you from diving downward at fast speeds. My previous idea was better than that.
I guess it might just have to be one of those "limitations that come from a simplified control scheme" you mentioned earlier. And like I said, if my ideas were implemented as an alternate control scheme rather than an update to SMS's base controls, players would be opting into these limitations by choosing it consciously over SMS's default control scheme.
Doing it this way would be very similar to SRB2's own choice between the different play styles. Standard is the default control scheme, and the one that promotes the highest level of play from players. However, it can be overwhelming to new players, or even just those playing with a gamepad. This is why the Simple control scheme exists. It auto turns the camera for you, so you don't have to manage as many things at once, and can simply have fun. While you are no longer in complete control, and it doesn't always work exactly the way you want, it's all worth it to some people. And then SMSBlast could be like the Legacy play style, but that hardly adds anything to this discussion.


Anyways, in conclusion, I think SMS could benefit from a new simplified control scheme that doesn't strip away nearly all of his abilities, but instead has players deal with the caveats of multiple abilities being mapped to just a few buttons. I don't really care if you use my ideas, or come up with your own, I just think SMS really needs this after so many people have complained about how many buttons SMS needs to just be played normally. I really do believe that you can fix this problem if you work hard enough at it. We all want SMS to become the best character he can possibly be.

 

[Darkboy64]

Honestly, the only thing I would really like to see changed is for Homing Momentum to be set to KEY by default. Or at least for SMS's settings to save so I don't have to change them every time I start the game.

 

[julian0005]

This is possibly my favorite character wad. I use to play as sms back in 2.0 of all things and now seeing this makes me happy. While the controls are a bit to much for my liking mastering them was pretty fun. And while the sprite isn't anything to goth about i do love the effects from this wad. so in conclusion thank you shine you did good.

 

[MotdSpork]

Honestly, the only thing I would really like to see changed is for Homing Momentum to be set to KEY by default. Or at least for SMS's settings to save so I don't have to change them every time I start the game.

I second this. Having a config file similar to Silver would be wonderful.

 

[WarPear]

I don't want to buy a 2000$ pc to play as SMS

I'm pretty sure there's an option to lower the amount of particles and stuff in the SMS menu. Try it. Also, it doesn't lag at all on my computer, and i have an Intel i3 core [shrugs]