SRB2 Message Board  

Go Back   SRB2 Message Board > Sonic Robo Blast 2 > Releases > Characters

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Super Mystic Sonic Reborn [SMSreborn-v2.2; SMS Colors] Details »»
Super Mystic Sonic Reborn [SMSreborn-v2.2; SMS Colors]
Version: 2.2, by Golden Shine (Here to bring light!) Golden Shine is offline
Developer Last Online: Sep 2020

Version: SRB2 Rating: (31 votes - 4.45 average)
Released: 04-18-2020 Last Update: 06-09-2020 Favourites: 22
Characters SOCs Scripts Re-Useable Content Sprites/Graphics



This mod adds a new transformation to Sonic, significantly boosting his abilities far beyond what players would usually be expected to handle normally, pushing the limits of what you can do is the name of the game! But be careful, you're not invincible and will lose your form in 2 hits. While Super Mystic, it isn't the game, but your own limits as a player that will define how far you can push Sonic, unleashing him as that action superhero he's always shown off to be, but rarely let you actually play as. (...or you can just go Hyper Mystic and say screw everything. I ain't gonna police it)

VIDEO FOOTAGE

TRAILER

Spoiler: TUTORIALS

Features:
  • The Ability to transform from practically any version of Sonic.
  • Special Balance for BattleMod 6.1, Match, CTF, and extra options for Race.
  • Many cooperative abilities allowing you to boost other players, including powershare, which grants characters a special superform with unique abilities not seen in normal superforms.
  • A humongous amount of abilities, options, and alt control schemes to let you play your own way.
  • Hyper Mystic Sonic, AKA HMS; An extra optional transformation on top of SMS, letting you become the most powerful character in SRB2 history for a limited time.
If you like playing the old way or want to practice, you can also select SMS as a skin, unless servers force this off. SMS is my most personal and long-running creation, and at the very least, I hope it'll show in the polish.

Spoiler: SMSreborn v2.2 Changelog

-Made 34 extra skincolors, mostly to add pulsing color options and a proper default palette that isn't just Super Sonic's. Other
characters may access these too.
-Added an admin option to turn pulsing colors off. This may ease RESYNC issues if you're getting those!
-SMS technically now supports Battlemod 8.3, though I'm dropping future Battlemod support, and recommend playing 6.1 from here on out for optimal games with SMS.
-Bandages(Sonic Boom Sonic) can now transform into SMS.
-Minor bugfixes for dedicated servers, some wad combinations, etc etc.

This version uses a different I/O file, so don't forget to save your favorite settings again.

Spoiler: SMSreborn v2.1 Changelog

Spoiler: BUG FIXES

-Fixed SMS' infinite attack & defense priority in Battle Mode that plagued SMSreborn-v2. Rejoice, Knuckles players.
-Fixed SMS being able to multi-homing attack after a homing attempt when he shouldn't (Battle Mode.)
-Removed a bug where SMS' stomp wouldn't work properly with combat shoes.
-SMS' lightspeed attack no longer breaks when wearing speedshoes.


Spoiler: CHANGES

-SMS now varies voice clips for Airboost and Blinddash. RIP "Go!!" spam
-SMSblast Mode is now called "Legend Mode" and has SMS' 2.0 walljump+1.09.4 multi-homing thok.
-The ringburst can now alternatively be done by double tapping custom1 on the ground.(boostmode-only) Practically necessary for the "Simple" control scheme.
-Afterimages when HMS' spindash AoE attack hits enemies.
-If you've never saved options, you'll now get assigned a random SMS color outside of coop modes when joining a game.



Spoiler: BALANCE

(Battle Mode)
-New critical combo mechanic! Any strong stun you afflict on SMS players will now become a critical stun. Hit SMS during this stun for a critical FINISHER, sending him flying and gaining you even more bonus points! This mechanic should allow non-SMS players to be much more aggressive, and also make it alot more fun to fight SMS in general. Aim to clash your attacks as hard as you can with SMS, as this will now give you the advantage and open opportunities!

-SMS' stomp now bounces a bit unless moving very fast to present clearer openings.

-If Fang is firmly grounded, neither shooting or sprinting, he can now resist SMS' spin-type attacks much like Knuckles.

-SMS is now refunded up to 10 rings when detransformed by a non-critical finish depending on ring count before getting hit. He also gets a pity or force shield depending on ring count. This should make it easier to get back into the game in busy netgames.

-SMS' flames inflict a more stun.

Spoiler: SMSreborn v2 Changelog

Spoiler: BUG FIXES
-Fixed methods to bypass SMS transformation restrictions
-You can no longer buy Golden Shoes in unintended gametypes
-Can no longer access HMS with 50 rings in gamemodes you need 300 rings.
-HMS can no longer hold onto flags.
-Fixed firestomping bug without elemental/fire shields
-Fixed issue with SMS transforming and instantly throwing a Diffusion Flame.
-Restores music properly for everyone after HMS panic in matches.
Weapon Previous input now also picks up items like intended.
-Atomdive&Stomp now properly detect all FOFs over deathpits.
-Analog footsweep setting now doesn't screw up the dodge.
-Fixed being unable to use the SMSmenu command when grabbed by -SMS(to make yourself ungrab-able during grieving)
-Kirby now gets different abilities from SMS depending on context.(fixes people getting kicked upon rejoining after sigsegvs when rejointimeout's active, messing up and lagging netgames like crazy)
-Fixed SMS's "freemode" and banned-mode being inaccessible for Battle Mode
-Many other minor things.

Spoiler: NEW MOVES
-Tap spin after launching the Atomic Dive for a Super Dropdash! More height = more speed!
-HMS is now even more powerful. Press Fire when charging a spindash for "Galaxy Storm".

Spoiler: CHANGES

-Your preferences can now be saved. Use "Save Config" in the SMSreborn menu. I suggest not doing this as a joiner, because it'll save the host's Admin settings from that game.
-SMS now autoloads SMSreborn.cfg. This acts like an autoexec.cfg, but specifically for SMS. Neat for automatically loading smsaltmusic(netgame safe), giving yourself a silly Super Mystic name or other commands. Not necessary at all.

-SMS graphics now automatically adjust upon server joins and HMS appearances. Turned off being messing with it manually.
-The lowest SMS graphics setting now removes even more visual effects.
-Added HMS limit option. Sets limit to how many HMS' can exist in a server. Default is 1.
-Removed rapid flashes from HMS' Novablast and Godbreaker on the highest graphics setting.
-When disabling the ability to turn into HMS, now immediately turns off already active HMS players.
-Added arrows to the SMS menus to convey the multiple pages.
SMS controls can be used during Match gametypes.
-Removed "SMSreborn is added, use blah for controls aid, etc" message
-Homing Momentum is now set to "key" by default since that seems to be the general preference over mine.
-New gfx/sfx for spamdash, ringburst, footsweep reflections(&timing) and HMS spindash AoE
-"HMS Themes" is now "Music Themes". Turns off HMS' theme, HMS' panic theme, and runshoes music for you.
-Added two new special SMS colors.(SMSreborn menu): Lapis Vapor and Azure Breaker
-Hold C3 for an "Explosion cam" after the highest grade atom dive.
Added hint if you get killed by an SMS who threw you.
-Players can now use "FIRE" to turn HMS in Battle.(C3 still works too) This caused some confusion.
-SMSblast SMS now has homing build into his multi-speed thok, like the original 1.09.4 SMS.
-An already ongoing ringburst will no longer be stopped by water
-Climbing Characters can now super-leap off walls if they're Mystic Super.
-You can now ringburst directly while spinning (still need boostmode), and canceling ringbursts grants some boostlvl
-If Tails(bot) is carrying you, you can now press custom3 to boost him yourself.
-The super hammerjump now can now also be performed from an airlanding.
-Kirby now gets Fire/Tornado/Wheel/Mike/Long Jump from SMS depending on context.(fixes people getting kicked upon rejoining after sigsevs when rejointimeout's active, messing up servers)
-Character mods can now set player.mo.smscompatibleskin to 2 to force compatibility with SMS.

Spoiler: BALANCE

(All)
-Diffusion Flames now lay firetraps a few frames later, and no longer do while detonating.
-The haymaker prompt extends if you've recently got hit by/dodged a haymaker to discourage spam.
-SMS' haymaker(HMS exempt) is now single-target on players. Players kept running into SMS' fist AoE wondering why they got no prompt.
-The haymaker now can't target flickering players and drains rings similar to sprinting.
-You can now leapfrog anyone, friend or foe.
-SMS' sprint powers now drain rings faster
-Atomdives now cost rings and whiff if you have none.

(CTF)
-SMS now has to touch the flag for half a second before being able to grab it. Should make capturing the flag in a game with tons of SMS players easier.

(Battle Mode)
-You're now invulnerable for 2 seconds when transforming. Should aleviate frustration of instantly losing SMS.
-Increased SMS' stun power on his regular flames
-Only non-SMS players now gain 25 bonus points when hitting SMS. (Untransformed SMS players still get this bonus)
-Homing Attack now has cooldown and consistent knockback when it fails, making spam harder, but also minimizing awkwardly flying skywards because of jank.
-Haymakers won't pierce shields in battle mode.(Still does in Match/CTF)
-HMS now drains 25 rings per second when a control point's being captured by anyone.
-HMS now captures control points MUCH slower

Download Now

File Type: pk3 SMSaltmusic.pk3 (3.39 MB, 2636 views)
File Type: pk3 SMSaltmusic-meme.pk3 (2.25 MB, 1762 views)
File Type: lua HMScheat.lua (1.8 KB, 1577 views)
File Type: pk3 VCL_SMSreborn-v2-2.pk3 (2.62 MB, 2481 views)

Screenshots

Click image for larger version

Name:	srb20086.gif
Views:	2269
Size:	3.36 MB
ID:	29800   Click image for larger version

Name:	srb20081.gif
Views:	2174
Size:	2.85 MB
ID:	29803   Click image for larger version

Name:	SMS Thumb.png
Views:	24868
Size:	96.1 KB
ID:	29805   Click image for larger version

Name:	XTRAB0.png
Views:	23938
Size:	4.3 KB
ID:	29806   Click image for larger version

Name:	SMSmenusmoll.png
Views:	16176
Size:	91.5 KB
ID:	32954  

Show Your Support

  • The author of this addon has given explicit permission for its content to be re-used and/or reproduced.

Comments
Old 04-19-2020   #42
Sinny33
or Sinny the Fennec
 
Sinny33's Avatar
Default

Beauty at its Kid Icarus
Sinny33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2020   #43
CyberKnux
Knuckles Chuckles
Extended Ban (Strike 3)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinny33 View Post
Beauty at its Kid Icarus
uhhh ok i guess what were you trying to say?
CyberKnux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2020   #44
Rapid
wake me up when 2.3 is out
 
Rapid's Avatar
Default

I absolutely love the new sprites he has. His new playstyle definitely has made alot of improvements.
__________________
Quote:
Sonic: Did you get all those chaos emeralds?
Rapid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2020   #45
frozenLake
 
frozenLake's Avatar
Default

Something I do have to ask, is for it to be made a bit more obvious that there is more than one page of options in the menus. I only stumbled upon the SMSBlast option by /accident/.
__________________
"ringslinger is more unbalanced than sonics thok" -White, 11/6/2017
frozenLake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2020   #46
Twins'R'Awesome
Mid tier pixel artist
 
Twins'R'Awesome's Avatar
Default

This is the first character that had me say, out aloud:
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

This thing is so ridiculously overpowered, I love it, and when you get the hang of it, it can be fun to traverse around the level at light speed.

Keyphrase: When you get the hang of it

I like this thing, but the control scheme is very cumbersome to deal with and I feel that this character can be more fun to play if you can figure out how to narrow his controls down to two or three buttons.

In other words, obey the game design principle of K.I.S.S

K
eep
It
Simple,
Stupid.
__________________
The most E P I C gamer around~
Twins'R'Awesome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #47
So2ro
Contest Winner
 
So2ro's Avatar
Default

Alright, it seems sms has a pretty major issue regarding his inputs and no it isnt it being complicated, if anything i love it
The problem is that, SMS seems to eat inputs that involve using mouse clicks:

In the gif above you can see that im jumping three times, and in the third i transform in sms im in battlemod, but it still applies to vanilla SMS, every time i jump i press the tossring button (currently left mouse click for me), you'd think that if im doing what i said i should be able to turn into sms in the first jump, however because of this issue, i cant ,so i have to rely most of the time on smashing tossring until it works.

Heres another gif of me doing the same thing but trying to use his flames attack i cant for life remember the name rn:


My other complaint, albeit minor, is that when changing the controls to simple haymaker, on control aids it still shows it as the back+c1 input.
Also it would be nice if we could change the homing attack to make it so i dont have to hold spin in midair to do it, basically swapping the thok and homing attack places.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	srb20403.gif
Views:	1770
Size:	7.09 MB
ID:	29854   Click image for larger version

Name:	srb20406.gif
Views:	1550
Size:	3.68 MB
ID:	29855  

Last edited by So2ro; 04-20-2020 at 05:26 AM.
So2ro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #48
izzy
ceo of good descriptions
 
izzy's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twins'R'Awesome View Post
I like this thing, but the control scheme is very cumbersome to deal with and I feel that this character can be more fun to play if you can figure out how to narrow his controls down to two or three buttons.

In other words, obey the game design principle of K.I.S.S

K
eep
It
Simple,
Stupid.
I feel the same way about SMS, there's also some moves that would only be useful in levels actually designed for SMS (i.e. giant boss with weak spots you have to reveal with flametoss).
__________________
mighty 2.3

whirl 2.3

skip 2.0
izzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #49
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy View Post
I feel the same way about SMS, there's also some moves that would only be useful in levels actually designed for SMS (i.e. giant boss with weak spots you have to reveal with flametoss).
I actually really like the idea of a giant boss with weak spots. I would love to see something like that make it into vanilla SRB2 one day. Something kinda like the Egg Golem from SA2.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #50
izzy
ceo of good descriptions
 
izzy's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
I actually really like the idea of a giant boss with weak spots. I would love to see something like that make it into vanilla SRB2 one day. Something kinda like the Egg Golem from SA2.
Bingo, buddy. Exactly what I remembered when I was thinking of the example.
__________________
mighty 2.3

whirl 2.3

skip 2.0
izzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #51
Golden Shine
Here to bring light!
 
Golden Shine's Avatar
Default

You people have been exceptionally nice about this, thank you so much!
  • I'll remove some of the excess flashes from HMS. They're not as opaque / jarring in-game as they are in GIFs, that's just a strange quirk of GIF recordings, but I don't want either method to give people seizures.
  • I hear people about their difficulty with the amount of buttons. With SMScontrols not mentioning alternate controls, I'm not too surprised. I'll bring out tutorials soon to hopefully rectify this!
  • Not having tested this in multiplayer often before release, I appreciate any bugs being reported for the bugfix update and will try to fix what I can!
  • Lag varies wildly from person to person due to the way SRB2 handles only your CPU. I'll see about optimizing the script for performance if I can. Until then.....if you experience lag, I suggest turning off HMS in busy netgames(I didn't design this to work laglessly with a dozen HMS' at once), turning the SMS graphics setting to low, and switching your renderer to OpenGL!
  • If there's a demand, I might revise SMS' "white outline" glow to instead use the same more fancy method the Mystic Emerald has. This'll take time, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMS Alfredo View Post
As great as this mod is, one cannot understate how much the amount of buttons you need to press sucks
There's already a control scheme like that in the official release. The issue with yours is that it forces players to deal with the limitations that come from a simplified control scheme when the point of SMSreborn is to allow unhindered potential.

Plus, putting abilities that stop/slow your momentum on the same button as the sprint makes no sense. And by removing the multi-homing thok you miss out on the advantages of a slow multithok on a character that desperately needs the extra control over his speed and direction, especially in smaller spaces.

Give me some time to release the SMS tutorials first so the simplified control schemes can come to light before remaking the controls on day 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy View Post
... Have you considered just giving SMS a multi-thok instead? I'd be fine with that.
There's an option in the menu for "SMSblast mode", which lets you play like SMSunleashed, a simpler playstyle that has an instant boost which barely gets punished for hitting walls and also has the multi speed thok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenhog View Post
...then it hit me that the HMS music is a remix of Clownpiece's theme song.

5 stars out of 5, would Lunatic Time again.
Exactly, screw Inazuma's music taste. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy View Post
I feel the same way about SMS, there's also some moves that would only be useful in levels actually designed for SMS (i.e. giant boss with weak spots you have to reveal with flametoss).
SMS' flames are mainly there for the competitive modes this time around, you can simply use them in coop for practice. I DID have to nerf SMS' startring-count in bossfights because it was op, though, so I wouldn't call it "useless".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
Battle

Spoiler:

The overall design ethos of the character in Battle makes enough sense -- the player must collect 30 rings as a standard Sonic with a nerfed thok and no Super Jump / Ground Pounds, and once he transforms, he completely sacrifices any ability to use shields. In theory, this makes SMS the most fragile character in the game, and it forces downtime on the player every time they get hit.

The issue is that the downsides need to be proportional to the strengths, and while on any other character this could be potentially crippling, SMS has such an incredible toolkit that a skilled player can potentially negate these downsides with ease. For example: his mobility is extremely dominant, which means he can control the terms of engagement easily; he has at least one projectile at any given moment, which gives him a method of applying pressure against defensive characters; his standard homing attack, while possible to be countered by certain melee attacks, applies incredible amounts of pressure against some characters due to its lack of downtime when clashing against attacks.

This is all to neglect mentioning Hyper Mystic Sonic, which, while rare, can lead to SMS completely shutting down any possible attempt at engagement on a Control Point due to its lethality, area of influence, and the duration of the attack.

One move that I absolutely cannot stand is the Comet Haymaker and how it interacts with enemy players by forcing them to respond to a Quick Time Event. Never do this in an online environment like SRB2's. Any player that's sitting above 115 ping is simply trashed due to the fact they physically cannot respond in time to defend against the attack. And even if that weren't the case, it's impossible for me to describe just how obnoxious it to be on the receiving end of this, as I get BTFO'd and my extra shields removed at random if I get hit, and I'm pretty much just forced to respond to a single move in SMS's kit with an arbitrary button press which is completely detached from the rest of the game's logic or physics. Furthermore, I don't understand what the appropriate counterplay is supposed to be for a move like this, since he's apparently invulnerable for the duration of this attack and all you can do is QTE if you want to avoid it; based on what I've seen from its abuse online, my current assumption is that there isn't a counterplay.

With all of this on the table, losing shield abilities and asking the player to recollect thirty rings when they get hit really isn't a big ask. For comparison, Tails requires thirty rings just to carry his maximum amount of buzz sentries, and while that allows him to apply a decent amount of pressure safely, it's nowhere near as powerful as what SMS's thirty rings allows him to do. And once Sonic transforms, the challenge becomes about being able to hit him at all, and while this is possibly more doable in modes like CTF and CP which have centralized objectives, an additional +25 points is something of a joke reward in Battle -- especially since a rival SMS is probably going to get those points off of him anyway.

There are counter-relationships to the character as-is, though it's a bit situationally dependent. Amy is a great counter-pick since her twinspin out-prioritizes SMS's homing attack and her charm beam de-transforms SMS entirely. Fang's cork is largely ineffective against an aggressive SMS, but his bombs are fairly decent at playing keep-away. Metal Sonic cannot catch SMS, but he can at least tank hits and retaliate with energy blasts in close quarters. On the flipside, vanilla Sonic seems to be at a total loss, as SMS's homing attack does not seem to suffer downtime during conflicts. Tails vs SMS is something of a stalemate. I haven't had enough time to gauge Knuckles' relationship.

In summary, the core transformation and anti-shield system applied to SMS is actually a good system to use for him, but there are certain variables and attributes to his collective toolkit that I think need to be re-examined before I could ever personally consider adding him onto one of my servers.
  • Comet Haymaker outright needs to be removed from his options or its player interaction entirely redesigned for these modes, and the homing attack ought to have enforced downtime when hitting foes.
  • SMS players should not receive any points bonus for de-transforming an enemy SMS, since all this is doing right now is encouraging SMS players to farm off of each other for points. Additionally I would consider raising the reward from 75 to 100 points to make the cost-benefit more proportional. (After all, de-transforming SMS is basically akin to "killing" him, isn't it?)
  • I would reduce HMS's transform time from 20 seconds to 8-10 seconds. That's still plenty of time to clear out an area and kill at least a couple people, 20 seconds is just complete overkill.
  • I would consider upping the initial transform requirement from 30 rings to 50 rings.


Bear in mind that balance for competitive multiplayer is largely a matter of trial and error. I must have updated Battle something like fifty times since its initial release, and many of the changes I make are due to balance considerations. As critical as my analysis may seem, it's kind of a feat that SMS is even as balanced as it is on its release. I am not sure how aware you were aware of the shield stacking system I added in a recent update, but this at least partially helped to make SMS's glassy nature more apparent. His biggest issue in the format right now is simply that the strengths still outweigh the weaknesses, and I would attribute this largely due to a few of his moves having polarizing qualities to them that don't suit the format very well. But making him actually balanced for the mode, at this point, seems surprisingly doable.
My thoughts

Spoiler:
About battle mode...I haven't had the chance much to test with many players, only very experienced testers in private tests. I wish to give it a bit more time before re-balancing, though so far in my experiences, SMS has come out balanced to underpowered in actual practice. For example, I don't think the Haymaker will be nearly as much of an issue in the long run as it is in your first impression.

Whether you dodge the haymaker isn't a reactive thing, it's a predictive response. It's always the same button inputs, and you can mash the jump+spin with no punishment even before the prompt shows making lag a non-issue. SMS players show very telling and repetitive behavior when they're setting up a haymaker, which I'm 100% certain you'll learn to recognize if you're getting irritated by how often players try to spam it if think they can get away with it. When you consider SMS drains rings to boost at all in Battle Mode, risks running into spinning players/projectiles/traps(which you really don't want to do when you have 1 hit), and is vulnerable after the attack. The haymaker is an awesome surprise attack for players ignoring you with a huge payoff, but once muscle memory and caution set in for other players, it's very ineffective and needs to be used sparingly.

HMS is absolutely broken, but does come at a cost even if you succeed. You can't casually pick 300 rings up over a long game or snatch them all from some player like emeralds. You have to be SMS for a long time, actively avoid getting potential points from risky fighting, AND survive an entire server hunting you down if you get 200+ rings. Now you do all that, and you successfully outright murder 3 people as HMS despite them running and hiding those 20 seconds. That's 300 points gained. Despite 20 seconds of complete domination, the gains aren't that huge compared to the risks. And yes, a bigger server means bigger point rewards for HMS, but that also means less rings to collect and more risk of losing them. I definitely gotta make him unable to use control points, though....

And finally SMS, definitely the most dangerous character on the field when transformed. But that does go both ways. As just Sonic, he's slow and can be easily chased and bullied into constant submission with very little in the way of fighting back. You could be combo'd by a really skilled player just as a skilled SMS might get alot of use out of his powers. But right now, I most often see people become SMS, and get 1 or 2 hits in before detransforming. The person who hits you get 75 points, and for the 30 rings it takes to go SMS, I'd say you need at least 150 points to really say it was worth it. I think the biggest risk of a balance issue actually lies in the charging flames, which lays fire traps and is a competent explosive projectile at the cost of 5 rings. But when the broken elemental shield exists, I'm not sure yet.

I think SMS in theory has all the potential to be the most broken of the "balanced" cast, but especially right now, people are far too clumsy to reach up to that. So I want to see how this goes in practice a little longer before rushing into changes!
__________________
Check out the shiny new replacement for the old SMS freewebs!

It features an archive of my mods, old and new. Like SMSreborn and Metroid Vanguard. (Currently a wip)
Golden Shine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #52
izzy
ceo of good descriptions
 
izzy's Avatar
Default

shine really bouta turn us all into SMS gods as a response to control complaints



small note, the multithok comment was a joke about how gigantic sms reborn's moveset is
__________________
mighty 2.3

whirl 2.3

skip 2.0
izzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #53
CobaltBW
Community Noise Maker
Developer
 
CobaltBW's Avatar
Default

Spoiler: Battle


Quote:
About battle mode...I haven't had the chance much to test with many players, only very experienced testers in private tests. I wish to give it a bit more time before re-balancing, though so far in my experiences, SMS has come out balanced to underpowered in actual practice. For example, I don't think the Haymaker will be nearly as much of an issue in the long run as it is in your first impression.

Whether you dodge the haymaker isn't a reactive thing, it's a predictive response. It's always the same button inputs, and you can mash the jump+spin with no punishment even before the prompt shows making lag a non-issue. SMS players show very telling and repetitive behavior when they're setting up a haymaker, which I'm 100% certain you'll learn to recognize if you're getting irritated by how often players try to spam it if think they can get away with it. When you consider SMS drains rings to boost at all in Battle Mode, risks running into spinning players/projectiles/traps(which you really don't want to do when you have 1 hit), and is vulnerable after the attack. The haymaker is an awesome surprise attack for players ignoring you with a huge payoff, but once muscle memory and caution set in for other players, it's very ineffective and needs to be used sparingly.
Assuming everything you say is true, then the haymaker's effectiveness is inversely proportional to enemy awareness. I would raise the counterpoint that this further encourages SMS to feed off of less-experienced players, which breaks him in battles with higher player counts.

Meta aside, my central complaint is with the QTE, which simply is not an enjoyable mechanic for Battle's gameplay format. The balance aspect, while serious, is still less annoying than the actual QTE itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Shine View Post
HMS is absolutely broken, but does come at a cost even if you succeed. You can't casually pick 300 rings up over a long game or snatch them all from some player like emeralds. You have to be SMS for a long time, actively avoid getting potential points from risky fighting, AND survive an entire server hunting you down if you get 200+ rings. Now you do all that, and you successfully outright murder 3 people as HMS despite them running and hiding those 20 seconds. That's 300 points gained. Despite 20 seconds of complete domination, the gains aren't that huge compared to the risks. And yes, a bigger server means bigger point rewards for HMS, but that also means less rings to collect and more risk of losing them. I definitely gotta make him unable to use control points, though....
I think even if you make HMS incapable of capturing points, this would still be an issue in Team Control Point, because while HMS is tossing up a storm, the rest of the team can use those twenty seconds to get an easy free capture. TCP is also the sort of environment where it's easier to gain HMS, because the mode's mechanics encourage players to focus less on each other and more on the objective. Since most people use the resting periods to replenish their resources, it's the perfect format for SMS to farm rings behind the scenes whilst avoiding conflict as necessary.

This is not to say 300 rings isn't a huge barrier, because it certainly is and it makes the transformation that much more eventful due to its rarity. The reason I recommended reducing the duration rather than the lethality, is because I'm totally okay with HMS wrecking face; I just think the duration of the event should be moderated so that it doesn't disrupt specialized mode objectives as severely.

Quote:
And finally SMS, definitely the most dangerous character on the field when transformed. But that does go both ways. As just Sonic, he's slow and can be easily chased and bullied into constant submission with very little in the way of fighting back. You could be combo'd by a really skilled player just as a skilled SMS might get alot of use out of his powers. But right now, I most often see people become SMS, and get 1 or 2 hits in before detransforming. The person who hits you get 75 points, and for the 30 rings it takes to go SMS, I'd say you need at least 150 points to really say it was worth it. I think the biggest risk of a balance issue actually lies in the charging flames, which lays fire traps and is a competent explosive projectile at the cost of 5 rings. But when the broken elemental shield exists, I'm not sure yet.

I think SMS in theory has all the potential to be the most broken of the "balanced" cast, but especially right now, people are far too clumsy to reach up to that. So I want to see how this goes in practice a little longer before rushing into changes!
See, that's totally fair and I don't particularly disagree with this assessment.

Up until now, there has only been one Battle character who has held such an emphasis on extended periods of downtime and uptime -- and that character is Eggpack, who requires 60 rings and preptime in order to get a powerful sentry turret that lays waste to the surrounding area and just causes all sorts of ruckus. But whenever that sentry is down, Eggman is just a big lumbering oaf that players can just throw around if they happen to catch him.

SMS in Battle is an amplification of that sort of character archetype, where his stock Sonic form is a literal nobody; no abilities and a more garbage thok, and then you get the powerhouse of SMS, the objectively most powerful character in the game but with the worst survivability. The thing I especially love about the execution of this is that base Sonic can still keep shields in stock! So there's a strategic element here where the player can choose to preserve his rings and instead rely on his core/shield abilities for as long as possible, only transforming when the moment is right or Sonic has lost all of his shields. I sincerely do love this sort of game design, and I think this particular aspect of SMS is executed quite well!

At the end of the day, I think that the challenge SMS is faced with in terms of mode balance is that his toolkit is extremely vast -- and as players continue to exeriment and adapt, dominant strategies begin to emerge. Enemy players may adapt, but even as they do so, they still have to contend with the fact that SMS has more options than anyone else in the cast. Therefore, I think SMS will inevitably stay on top of other characters' attempts to adapt simply because SMS is the most adaptable of all characters.

This is all fine and well so long as every tool in his kit has adequate counterplays or limits. The reason why so many players are faceplanting as SMS at the moment is largely due to the complexity of his toolkit rather than any sort of incompetitiveness on the characters' part. I have played Battle servers as Fang in a sea of SMS players and occasionally have come out on top -- but for every one time that I do so, there are multiple instances where one SMS player gets 4x the number of points as the next best player. As a non-SMS player, I cannot catch up to SMS's sheer speed, and so if SMS chooses not to engage with me, then there is nothing I can do to pick up the lead.

I think it's totally fair to wait for more data to come in before making any adjustments. But please take my above recommendations as possible pressure points in the character's design to watch out for -- in particular, I believe denying SMS from receiving a +25 bonus for hitting other SMS players would encourage them to engage more frequently with non-SMS characters. Second, Comet Haymaker appears to be the most obvious point of polarity, so its current PvP interaction at least ought to be reconsidered. The rest is largely tertiary.
__________________
~CobaltBW

Check out my soundcloud profile for music stuff

Last edited by CobaltBW; 04-20-2020 at 06:24 PM.
CobaltBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #54
Winins
SRB2C Researcher
 
Winins's Avatar
Default

Wow, it looks awesome. Literally. Sadly, I could never understand the Custom1, Custom2, and Custom3 buttons, or even the buttons in general, even if I have aid on. Can I get some help?
__________________
Listen

Last edited by Winins; 04-20-2020 at 04:10 PM.
Winins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #55
Icarus
Warrior from Algol
 
Icarus's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winins View Post
Wow, it looks awesome. Literally. Sadly, I could never understand the Custom1, Custom2, and Custom3 buttons, or even the buttons in general, even if I have aid on. Can I get some help?
You need to bind them in the controls menu (at the very end of it).
__________________
Welcome to the Fantasy Zone
Get Ready!
Icarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #56
riha
Default

Wow, I didn't actually think it was possible to add custom menu's.
riha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2020   #57
SMS Alfredo
 
SMS Alfredo's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Shine View Post
There's already a control scheme like that in the official release.
Yes, I am aware of the SMSBlast mode, but the thing is, that mode doesn't fix any of the problems SMS's control scheme has for a player who wants to use less buttons. That mode, in essence, is just SMSReborn, but you can only use the Jump, Spin, and Custom 1 buttons, the ability to wall jump is removed, and the boost works differently. Really, at that point, you're better off just playing without SMSBlast mode on, but with only those 3 buttons mapped.
I think SMSBlast mode, as a legacy control scheme option, is great. But as a way for players to not to have to use any many buttons? Horrible. Playing with the mode off and just using those same buttons has the exact same effect, if not better. I personally think there needs to be a new control mode that actually fixes some of the control problems, rather than essentially just brushing them under the carpet.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Shine View Post
The issue with yours is that it forces players to deal with the limitations that come from a simplified control scheme when the point of SMSreborn is to allow unhindered potential.

You know what? You're right, it does do that. I really don't know why I thought it could just replace SMS's basic control scheme. However, I bet it could be an optional alternative control scheme similar to that of SMSBlast. This way, players who want to have those limitations on them in exchange for a simplified control scheme can have it, while those who want to really use SMS to his full potential can simply have it off. It's a win-win for everyone involved.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Shine View Post
Plus, putting abilities that stop/slow your momentum on the same button as the sprint makes no sense.


You're also right here too...I was trying to make it so SMS used three primary buttons, and really the Boost had no where else to go after I moved the Triple Sweepkick and Atomic Dive to Custom 1. Maybe instead you could put the Boost on Custom 2, but make it a toggle instead of a hold action? That would make it so if Custom 2 is almost out of reach for a player, it won't be too much of an issue. But, honestly, this whole thing would be alot easier if I could just get rid of SMS's ability to roll while moving and replace that with the Triple Sweepkick. But I doubt anyone would actually want that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Shine View Post
And by removing the multi-homing thok you miss out on the advantages of a slow multithok on a character that desperately needs the extra control over his speed and direction, especially in smaller spaces.

Hmm, how about if you don't press any movement keys/keep the control stick neutral when thokking it turns into that slow multi-thok? And then you could keep all the other changes I made. Although...hmm, not sure if that's the best idea, but it's the only one I can think of that fits with the control scheme I came up with.
Maybe instead the stomp could cancel all your momentum like how Modern's stomp works? Ehh...that would also prevent you from diving downward at fast speeds. My previous idea was better than that.
I guess it might just have to be one of those "limitations that come from a simplified control scheme" you mentioned earlier. And like I said, if my ideas were implemented as an alternate control scheme rather than an update to SMS's base controls, players would be opting into these limitations by choosing it consciously over SMS's default control scheme.
Doing it this way would be very similar to SRB2's own choice between the different play styles. Standard is the default control scheme, and the one that promotes the highest level of play from players. However, it can be overwhelming to new players, or even just those playing with a gamepad. This is why the Simple control scheme exists. It auto turns the camera for you, so you don't have to manage as many things at once, and can simply have fun. While you are no longer in complete control, and it doesn't always work exactly the way you want, it's all worth it to some people. And then SMSBlast could be like the Legacy play style, but that hardly adds anything to this discussion.


Anyways, in conclusion, I think SMS could benefit from a new simplified control scheme that doesn't strip away nearly all of his abilities, but instead has players deal with the caveats of multiple abilities being mapped to just a few buttons. I don't really care if you use my ideas, or come up with your own, I just think SMS really needs this after so many people have complained about how many buttons SMS needs to just be played normally. I really do believe that you can fix this problem if you work hard enough at it. We all want SMS to become the best character he can possibly be.
SMS Alfredo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2020   #58
Darkboy64
 
Darkboy64's Avatar
Default

Honestly, the only thing I would really like to see changed is for Homing Momentum to be set to KEY by default. Or at least for SMS's settings to save so I don't have to change them every time I start the game.
Darkboy64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2020   #59
julian0005
Default

This is possibly my favorite character wad. I use to play as sms back in 2.0 of all things and now seeing this makes me happy. While the controls are a bit to much for my liking mastering them was pretty fun. And while the sprite isn't anything to goth about i do love the effects from this wad. so in conclusion thank you shine you did good.
julian0005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2020   #60
MotdSpork
Mafia? Zombies? Gold spork?
 
MotdSpork's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkboy64 View Post
Honestly, the only thing I would really like to see changed is for Homing Momentum to be set to KEY by default. Or at least for SMS's settings to save so I don't have to change them every time I start the game.
I second this. Having a config file similar to Silver would be wonderful.
__________________
Cant decide on spoon or fork? try Spork!

Tsumi: OH GOD OH FUCK MIDGET TAILS IS FIGHTING GIGA BRAK
MotdSpork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2020   #61
PiraITA
 
PiraITA's Avatar
Default

Quote:
I don't want to buy a 2000$ pc to play as SMS
I'm pretty sure there's an option to lower the amount of particles and stuff in the SMS menu. Try it. Also, it doesn't lag at all on my computer, and i have an Intel i3 core [shrugs]
__________________
The coolest italian on earth.

Last edited by PiraITA; 04-21-2020 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Didn't put the quote
PiraITA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.