How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

To me, the Thok really is nice and can make or break you with ease. You either knew what you were doing or not. The reason why I like it is because like Sonic, it is not made to babysit starters, you either master the ability or overshoot it and die trying, and the best part of it all it gives Sonic his title as "the fastest thing alive". Sure momentum is also planned to 2.3 and sounds like it would be too overpowering, but what I see is more like Players risking a fatal error to try to get a good time limit and feeling a satisfactory amount of speed. I also do not understand the reason why it will be replaced as well, is it because of ringslinger balance? Because that is meant to be scrapped in 2.3 isn't it? For race balance? Not only can people just.. not choose Amy and Fang but what will nerfing Sonic do? Lets be honest, if Sonic's high effort skill is lowered then that will just guarantee Tails' and Knuckle's not-so-high effort to be unstoppable, and you cannot really change them since the game is based of the genesis. Although if they're going to at least change the ability I just hope the ability is something like the thok, something that allows Sonic to reach his speed a little quicker and possibly something that can put users in danger if they're not careful enough. Because I do remember seeing Sonic with a bounce and some type of flip ability... I didn't like that at all..
 
While I may have no voice in the community, I will say this... Whatever half-cooked breakfast combo this "Thok Replacement" is only spells trouble. It shows that they are more focused on holding our hands rather than letting us experiment and learn. It'd make the game too easy by making Sonic a playground with supervision, something as shown by the Classic Quartet (S1, S2, S3&K, and SDC) is a terrible choice in design.

The ability is cluttered, with a bunch of useless abilities that adds nothing to Sonic other than make him complicated. While the argument is to make it similar to SM64, it is like comparing apples to oranges. SM64 had a complex moveset cause not only Mario is known for it (and at the time, to take advantage of the new Analog Stick and the Z Button), meanwhile it was shown that in Sonic's case, a 1 or 2 button moveset works (S3, SA1, etc). SRB2 does keep it one button, but defies it with multiple uses that all are useless and don't play into each other. Sonic is built for fast and fluid gameplay with a heavy emphasis on experimentation and thought, and this new moves just goes against that in every way. The double jump part is horridly useless and the wall climb is too (hell, it is already a mod); The water skipping also has absolutely no use if they port over X-Momentum's water running feature.

Another reason STJr apparently had for changing the Thok is because Sonic wasn't beginner friendly, and that newcomers who first open the game will be discouraged to play as him. However, that isn't mostly true, as it seems more people play with Sonic & Tails as they understand that Tails has the benefit of helping Sonic by carrying him everywhere (I mean, the RSDK remakes pushed that, Mania pushed it harder, and by Origins, it is known fact the best way to start is with the duo. Could be helpful if AI Tails for SRB2 was more useful, with his assist icon being more noticeable and can be triggered slightly farther from Sonic instead of having to literally hug Tails). Sonic (Alone) as a character option serves as the game's true neutral mode. Harder that Sonic & Tails and possibly even Knuckles, it shows that when playing, you are ready to leave your fox companion behind and play with a more difficult version of the character (that Tails assist makes the difference), showing less of a need to change the Thok that much.

While yes, the Thok is indeed a troubled move, it isn't that broken to require replacement. It has been shown by Balanced Sonic that it just needs a few tweaks. My suggestion is to make the Thok speed-based, something I've had in concepts for about a year now. The literal motto of the move is "The faster you go, the farther you'll fly", as to play into the gimmick of the change: How fast you travel affects how fast (and far) you'll be flung. It plays into Sonic's motto of experimentation and thought, and rewards skilled players with high-speed action (like Sonic is supposed to).

Even if this is a rambling mess of text, a Sonic enthusiast to you all hopefully trying to explain what can be simplified as the fact that the Thok doesn't need a removal or overhaul... just a minor tweak or change can make a huge difference in play. Rather than betraying Sonic's style of what we can describe as a "hands-off playground with no supervision", we can keep it, and still make Sonic a bit easier to master.

Again, TL;DR Sonic literally needs just a few changes to the Thok to make him "beginner-friendly".
 
I
⟨⟨X× H I R O Y U K I ×X⟩⟩ said:
Again, TL;DR Sonic literally needs just a few changes to the Thok to make him "beginner-friendly".
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I'm already agreeing with this. If the thok were ever needed changes, it would be that it's speed needs a slight nerf (not a nerf as a whole, just a nerf slightly noticeable enough to not air-pace Sonic to a wall), it would need an arch (to change directory whilst thokking in order to use it while making turns), and the last change would be that it'd need to have a momentum-based thok home-in. I know the last one is asking for too much, but the undoubtedly complex 3-in-1 breakfast sandwich move is just receiving too much.
 
C.D. Dinosaur said:
I don't know why you all are acting like the thok is this great and deeply nuanced move. Any depth in a move that is just "make player go fast" is completely accidental and some of you are jumping through so many hoops just to make it "balanced" like it needs saving. The thok is a lost cause and it's probably by far the least interesting move in the game so there's no point in tweaking it to make it slightly less game breaking and the best option would just be to make a brand new move.
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its like the sonic 3 instashield, at first it seems very useless, but once you figure it out it can be very useful, it just depends on your skill level
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shortnameswill said:
The thok is just that one subject in a community that is really controversial and can turn peaceful talks into raging discussions/arguments, if you've read the whole thread, you know what I'm talking about.
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srb2 politics, actually can someone make an ai presidential debate with this thread
 
⟨⟨X× H I R O Y U K I ×X⟩⟩ said:
Another reason STJr apparently had for changing the Thok is because Sonic wasn't beginner friendly, and that newcomers who first open the game will be discouraged to play as him. However, that isn't mostly true
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Unfortunately, the devs have talked before about how this aspect of the decision is based on hard data. They've seen countless examples of new players using Sonic, not having the skill to make use of the thok, and the presence of the thok therefore being a larger detriment for them than a benefit. The intention therefore is to make the title character more beginner friendly since he's the one new players are mostly likely to try out first.

This in and of itself isn't the problem though, the issue I think is the mentality through which they are viewing how to solve the issue of new players not being ready for the challenge of making good use of the thok.
⟨⟨X× H I R O Y U K I ×X⟩⟩ said:
It shows that they are more focused on holding our hands rather than letting us experiment and learn. It'd make the game too easy by making Sonic a playground with supervision
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And this is the part that worries me the most about it. Games are made fun through their learning curve, but also through their simplicity. While I still intend to reserve judgement of the new move until I've had a chance to try it, it does seem from a distance to stink of overcomplication and making things too safe for new players.

Take Sonic 1 and 2 for example. In Sonic 1, you didn't have the spindash yet, and so to earn speed you had to make even more clever use of the terrain, spinning in the right places while being careful about how you moved in the air. Speed is something that was earned largely by a combination of mastery of movement and stage layout memorization. Sonic didn't have a big complex SM64-like toolkit for achieving this, because he didn't need it. SEGA opted to keep it simple.

When Sonic 2 came around, they refined the level design a bit to give somewhat easier access to speed, and added in the Spindash. It was a streamlining of what already worked, and did so without overcomplicating it. Sonic 2 is revered over Sonic 1 largely because of its approachability. You aren't given a complex ability that takes time to master, at least not obviously. In reality, you are, which is your ability to maintain speed. However, this is somewhat more of a hidden ability that the player subconsciously feels incentivized to master because doing so feels natural and good. You will lose a lot of lives along the way, but that's just part of the process. It's like learning how to ride a bike or a skateboard, you'll fall many times along the way, sometimes it will be embarrasing, sometimes it will hurt. But all of that is part of the experience, and part of what makes eventual success so satisfying. It is this process that the Classic Sonic games were trying to emulate.

The problem as I see it is not solely within the Thok, but in STJR's philosophy regarding level design. Players get themselves killed by thokking into bottomless pits because STJR placed them there in areas Sonic can access and is told through the level geometry that it's platforming time instead of speed time. The player gets into a mindset that they need to use their double jump ability to help them platform, and this ends up failing because the thok is a speed tool first and a platforming tool second.

The solution as I see it isn't to remove bottomless pits or the thok, but to design the levels in harmony with both. The main path should be largely designed around the player being able to go fast or slow, with risk increasing along with speed, but player skill being able to act as the main line of defense against the risk. Beginner players who have not yet learned how to maintain speed would be protected by the more simple nature of navigating around obstacles slowly. More advanced players would face the risk head on and zip forward at higher speeds without getting punished by doing so being the outright wrong choice because of how the level is designed.

Meanwhile, Tails and Knuckles are more vertically powerful characters. They would be able to access higher routes with ease, functioning as shortcuts from point A to point B that allow them to keep up pace with skilled Sonic players. It matters not if the thok is being "spammed" in this case, because it doesn't increase speed you already have and wouldn't be being generally used along the same pathway as more vertically powerful characters anyway, at least in a competitive situation between experienced players who know the level layouts.

Of course, accomplishing all this would be a lot of work. It's difficult and time consuming to build and playtest the levels balanced out for multiple characters like this. It's also difficult for another reason: Discarding work that's already done. I get it, I really do. But I worry that STJR is steering the game in a distinctly non-Sonic direction out of a desire to avoid all that. Perhaps future updates will release and put those fears to rest, who knows. All I know is that right now in this context it seems like they're out of touch with both their own community and what it is that makes Sonic, Sonic from a gameplay perspective. Particularly in regards to the classics that this game is attempting to be a 3D homage to.
 
i just watched a video about the thok debate, and my opinion isn't exactly that different from most people (being that i don't want it to be changed) i think from what they've shown for a replacement for the thok is too complex and too confusing for new players to understand, admittedly i think i could have fun with it but i'd prefer it being for a addon character than being a replacement for the easy to understand thok ability, and besides the thok isn't even hard to use so my response to anyone that has a hard time with it, JUST. GET. ***BETTER AT THE GAME AND USE IT WHEN NECESARY*** my idea if they were to ever change the thok is to just make it shot u a lil more higher then it is currently, that's really all i think they should do to make it easier for newer players tho i think keeping the thok as it is would be a safer way to not make controversy
 
I recently watched a video on YouTube tackling this debate, and I will come to my own conclusion. While I understand STJr's reasoning to change it to be more friendly to new players, looking at how the unique replacement ability was described (and what little of it was shown) was mind-numbing. Like it took me a moment to understand. The best way I can describe it is something like X-Treme Sonic's ability but not really. It feels like an overcomplicated double jump that shouldn't even be that complex. Also, the fact that it looks SLOW and BORING.

The Thok in my eyes is irreplaceable, even though I haven't played SRB2 for years like some, Thok is the most balanced ability in the game. It's rewarding for people who know how to use it and punishing for players who spam it. You just have to and I'm putting this nicely, GET GOOD. As someone who's played and beaten several map packs as just Sonic, the fun in Sonic is using your simple move pool to beat stages quickly and to just have fun. No characters need complex, extra abilities for no reason. Take characters like StephChars and RushChars, even though these characters don't have much, if you master them they're just as good as Sonic.

If STJr wants to continue with this ability they can stick it on an OC character or something. There are like 82746582376952 types of animals.

Tldr: They should keep the Thok, not just for old fans but the fact that it doesn't need to be changed.
 
SonicjrFan said:
Thok was never good.
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back in the pre 2.2 days. Sonic's description stated that Sonic wasn't for beginner players. the Thok is something your supposed to master to truly SRB2. saying the Thok was never good is just... :ohsnap:

to me, the I'd just let STJR do their thing. people would just mod the thok back in the game anyway lol.

EDIT :
Their decision to replace it is 100% reasonable. I can see why new players would struggle with the thok. but I don't really know why the Thok hadn't been changed sooner. NONE of the stages are designed around it.
 
i think it pretty.... suck

replacing the thok will pretty much let sonic speedrunners to learn a new move, not only that, but it "complex" for new players.
Beside, it basically sonic mania's drop dash but complex
 
time gear said:
Unfortunately, the devs have talked before about how this aspect of the decision is based on hard data. They've seen countless examples of new players using Sonic, not having the skill to make use of the thok, and the presence of the thok therefore being a larger detriment for them than a benefit. The intention therefore is to make the title character more beginner friendly since he's the one new players are mostly likely to try out first.

This in and of itself isn't the problem though, the issue I think is the mentality through which they are viewing how to solve the issue of new players not being ready for the challenge of making good use of the thok.

And this is the part that worries me the most about it. Games are made fun through their learning curve, but also through their simplicity. While I still intend to reserve judgement of the new move until I've had a chance to try it, it does seem from a distance to stink of overcomplication and making things too safe for new players.

Take Sonic 1 and 2 for example. In Sonic 1, you didn't have the spindash yet, and so to earn speed you had to make even more clever use of the terrain, spinning in the right places while being careful about how you moved in the air. Speed is something that was earned largely by a combination of mastery of movement and stage layout memorization. Sonic didn't have a big complex SM64-like toolkit for achieving this, because he didn't need it. SEGA opted to keep it simple.

When Sonic 2 came around, they refined the level design a bit to give somewhat easier access to speed, and added in the Spindash. It was a streamlining of what already worked, and did so without overcomplicating it. Sonic 2 is revered over Sonic 1 largely because of its approachability. You aren't given a complex ability that takes time to master, at least not obviously. In reality, you are, which is your ability to maintain speed. However, this is somewhat more of a hidden ability that the player subconsciously feels incentivized to master because doing so feels natural and good. You will lose a lot of lives along the way, but that's just part of the process. It's like learning how to ride a bike or a skateboard, you'll fall many times along the way, sometimes it will be embarrasing, sometimes it will hurt. But all of that is part of the experience, and part of what makes eventual success so satisfying. It is this process that the Classic Sonic games were trying to emulate.

The problem as I see it is not solely within the Thok, but in STJR's philosophy regarding level design. Players get themselves killed by thokking into bottomless pits because STJR placed them there in areas Sonic can access and is told through the level geometry that it's platforming time instead of speed time. The player gets into a mindset that they need to use their double jump ability to help them platform, and this ends up failing because the thok is a speed tool first and a platforming tool second.

The solution as I see it isn't to remove bottomless pits or the thok, but to design the levels in harmony with both. The main path should be largely designed around the player being able to go fast or slow, with risk increasing along with speed, but player skill being able to act as the main line of defense against the risk. Beginner players who have not yet learned how to maintain speed would be protected by the more simple nature of navigating around obstacles slowly. More advanced players would face the risk head on and zip forward at higher speeds without getting punished by doing so being the outright wrong choice because of how the level is designed.

Meanwhile, Tails and Knuckles are more vertically powerful characters. They would be able to access higher routes with ease, functioning as shortcuts from point A to point B that allow them to keep up pace with skilled Sonic players. It matters not if the thok is being "spammed" in this case, because it doesn't increase speed you already have and wouldn't be being generally used along the same pathway as more vertically powerful characters anyway, at least in a competitive situation between experienced players who know the level layouts.

Of course, accomplishing all this would be a lot of work. It's difficult and time consuming to build and playtest the levels balanced out for multiple characters like this. It's also difficult for another reason: Discarding work that's already done. I get it, I really do. But I worry that STJR is steering the game in a distinctly non-Sonic direction out of a desire to avoid all that. Perhaps future updates will release and put those fears to rest, who knows. All I know is that right now in this context it seems like they're out of touch with both their own community and what it is that makes Sonic, Sonic from a gameplay perspective. Particularly in regards to the classics that this game is attempting to be a 3D homage to.
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If I ever typed this much in one go I would DIE, straight up KABLOOWEY. (lol)
 
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bitten2up said:
can we all agree if your going to remove it add a toggle in the control settings, thanks
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Better option for removing the thok (which has been stated before), make it an unlockable ability, like an extra, or have it be part of another character.


Anyways- my opinion on the thok's removal though; a whole can of worms. Personally, the rebound dash is a way to go for the thok, rather than removing it as a whole. Shooting into pits is very much a hazard for a lot of players, regardless of experience, due to the variety of each person's ability of memory (usually from not play for a while), or while learning a new level. A way around this would just have the thok have some what of a vertical boost, like what cross(x) momentum does, but let the player have more control by making the thok itself powered on said momentum (like with almost every custom thok that doesn't reset your momentum) where the thok doesn't send you flying when you are trying to be more careful with platforming, or you getting that extra push you might need for a big jump. This meshed with the rebound dash idea can make the thok a ton more platforming, momentum, and hopefully, beginner friendly.

tl;Dr make the thok be momentum based with the rebound dash's, well, rebound, + control increase.
 
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Why Replace Thok? I Mean... You Can Keep It Just Assigned To Another Button Like "Custom 1"
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Why Replace Thok? I Mean... You Can Keep It Just Assigned To Another Button Like "Custom 1"
 
Practically every benefit of the Thok mentioned in this thread is one that could also be featured in a replacement move. Except that replacement move also need not have the Thok's problems. I look forward to its removal, personally.
 
DylanDude said:
Practically every benefit of the Thok mentioned in this thread is one that could also be featured in a replacement move. Except that replacement move also need not have the Thok's problems. I look forward to its removal, personally.
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Keeping the benefits of the thok while removing the issues isn't something that's so easily/simply done, otherwise the debate would have been settled years ago.
 
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