Moony
oughhh i could rlly go for a snack rn . . . .
"IMO" means in my opinion i think
How do you feel about the thok being replaced?
- Thread starter Metal Snick Productions
- Start date
PH Arthuro Games
Member
Anyways Add The Sonic Adventure 1/Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic Heroes Moves Like Tornado Attack, Light Speed Dash, ETC
beakymagma
ryder's strongest soldier
Then that would take away Fang's unique way of easily killing enemies. Since his pop-gun is basically a homing shot.
if it's too fast play another char.
bitten2up
she/her
light speed was in srb2 for a bit (iirc like final demo) in one secret stage, but that was removed
Except the debate was fairly settled years ago and it's something that the devs have said they want to do for years now. And plenty of us support that. Also, even under this logic, it's still entirely possible.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
The devs deciding that they want to do it doesn't mean it was fairly settled. The entire reason why most of the community still thinks replacing thok is a bad idea is exactly because nobody has ever put forward an alternative that keeps everything people like about the thok while removing everything that makes it problematic.
"Possible" isn't a good reason to go ahead with it. Until there's something real presented that actually accomplishes what you're talking about rather than just potential headspace, the "possible" replacement still doesn't actually exist. Why would you toss out your car because hovercars are possible? They don't actually exist yet.
Sls64LGamingBro
An ordinary coder...
Literally there is a chance that the thok can be the most removed and talking about when it comes to v2.3, what you think it's "why most of the community still thinks replacing thok is a bad idea" it's just normal at the first moment, but worse and it could be may worse by in v2.3, a theard would pop up about it in the message board. Even right now this theard is being made and it was snick's fault for making this conversation.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
It's not about it being normal to think, it's about people having been using it and growing their skill with it for decades. They like it because of what they are able to accomplish with it.
A replacement for the thok that satisfies the most number of people needs to accomplish:
-Having a similar utility and playstyle to the thok that comes with the same high skill ceiling
-Lowering the skill floor so that new players feel safe playing it
-Not being overcomplicated
This is difficult because although the thok is difficult for new players, it's a very simple mechanic. All of the nuance to it comes entirely from player skill. To add more nuance to the mechanic itself will detract from its simplicity and could easily lower the skill ceiling. The thok is already nearly perfect and works very well; It's simple, engaging, fits the character, and seems to have no limit to how much more skillful the player can get with it over time. The one major issue with it is that it's hard for beginners to use.
It's a situation that MUST be handled with care, because if it gets replaced with something that fixes the major issue of the thok at the cost of everything people like about it, the only thing the replacement will be accomplishing is appeasing new players at the cost of most of the existing playerbase.
klasky
he/him
I honestly am fond of the idea of the Thok being replaced. I don't like that ability, it's rather boring and is just... an air dash. The idea that was showed in the Discord server (#devetopment) seems more enjoyable to me and more versatile. Can't wait to see what will Sonic's ability end up be in 2.3!
FishandChips
When was the last time I logged in?
Couldn't we just give Sonic the Homing Attack and the Air Dash.
PH Arthuro Games
Member
Maybe...
PencilVoid
Circuit Enthusiast
I think the issues surrounding the thok are just one manifestation of an underlying issue permeating SRB2's design. In general, SRB2 is just not very approachable for newbies. Evidenced by the fact that many of us have been in this community for years it used to be approachable, but something changed.
I don't think the game itself changed. Definitely not. The player physics has hardly changed in the last decade. I think what's changed is player expectations over the years. Modern game design tends to, in a sense, work with the player, minimising the amount of time they have to spend learning how the game works by providing them with tools and abilities that are simple and very easy to use, allowing them to focus on improving their skills more quickly. SRB2 doesn't do this. SRB2 comes with its own rules and expects the player to take the time to learn them. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but it can easily cause issues if executed poorly. For instance, players don't have to learn how to manipulate SRB2's floaty gravity and slippery acceleration to make platforming easier when they can just get Tails to fly over any obstacle. This specific example is a failing of both Tails' ability for acting as a simple emergency escape and the level design for not preventing Tails from doing this or encouraging interaction with the level gimmick.
We all know that newbies struggle to wield the thok. They throw themselves around wildly, into a pit or some other danger. There's most likely not one single cause for this, but I think the most common cause is likely the assumption that using your character's ability always either makes the situation easier or makes no substantial change. This isn't an unreasonable assumption at all; it's true for practically every other Sonic game. Having trouble hitting a badnik in Adventure? Just use your ability and home in on them! Having trouble maintaining your speed in Mania? Just use your ability and instantly get a burst of manageable speed upon touching the ground! Having trouble traversing a vertical level in Galactic? Just use that... wall spinny thing, and dash up a wall with ease!
Having trouble reaching a far away platform in SRB2? Just use your ability and... overshoot and fall into the pit surrounding it.
You see what I mean? Other games give players the idea that using their ability almost invariably makes their life easier in some way as long as the bare minimum of thought is put into it. The thok is different in a very important way: The thok demands thoughtful use. If you misuse your air dash in Adventure there's no real downside. Worst case is you accidentally launch yourself towards a pit, which is easy to correct thanks to Adventure's tight air controls and the fact that it doesn't launch you any faster than your running speed. If you misuse the drop dash in Mania you just... go forward. On the ground, most likely at running speed or lower. If you misuse the wall spin in Galactic you just accidentally launch yourself down instead of up or vice-versa.
The thok isn't designed in such a way that it can never hurt you. It's not a magic button that instantly makes the situation easier. Instead, it has equal ability to help you and hurt you. Realising this is the beginning of a player's journey to mastering the thok. Understandably, many players never make this realisation because again, no other game is like this. I think this is, most of the time, the schism that causes newbies to have a hard time using the thok. As an additional note, the thok is also the only ability within SRB2 that is like this.
What do I think the solution is? To be honest, I don't know. I am personally a fan of the way the thok demands thoughtfulness and strategy. It provides an interesting gameplay dynamic and sets it apart from other abilities from other games. STJr could simply nerf its speed, which would make it more similar to Adventure's air dash. But I think a good replacement for it should have an equal demandingness of thoughtfulness and strategy.
I don't think the game itself changed. Definitely not. The player physics has hardly changed in the last decade. I think what's changed is player expectations over the years. Modern game design tends to, in a sense, work with the player, minimising the amount of time they have to spend learning how the game works by providing them with tools and abilities that are simple and very easy to use, allowing them to focus on improving their skills more quickly. SRB2 doesn't do this. SRB2 comes with its own rules and expects the player to take the time to learn them. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but it can easily cause issues if executed poorly. For instance, players don't have to learn how to manipulate SRB2's floaty gravity and slippery acceleration to make platforming easier when they can just get Tails to fly over any obstacle. This specific example is a failing of both Tails' ability for acting as a simple emergency escape and the level design for not preventing Tails from doing this or encouraging interaction with the level gimmick.
We all know that newbies struggle to wield the thok. They throw themselves around wildly, into a pit or some other danger. There's most likely not one single cause for this, but I think the most common cause is likely the assumption that using your character's ability always either makes the situation easier or makes no substantial change. This isn't an unreasonable assumption at all; it's true for practically every other Sonic game. Having trouble hitting a badnik in Adventure? Just use your ability and home in on them! Having trouble maintaining your speed in Mania? Just use your ability and instantly get a burst of manageable speed upon touching the ground! Having trouble traversing a vertical level in Galactic? Just use that... wall spinny thing, and dash up a wall with ease!
Having trouble reaching a far away platform in SRB2? Just use your ability and... overshoot and fall into the pit surrounding it.
You see what I mean? Other games give players the idea that using their ability almost invariably makes their life easier in some way as long as the bare minimum of thought is put into it. The thok is different in a very important way: The thok demands thoughtful use. If you misuse your air dash in Adventure there's no real downside. Worst case is you accidentally launch yourself towards a pit, which is easy to correct thanks to Adventure's tight air controls and the fact that it doesn't launch you any faster than your running speed. If you misuse the drop dash in Mania you just... go forward. On the ground, most likely at running speed or lower. If you misuse the wall spin in Galactic you just accidentally launch yourself down instead of up or vice-versa.
The thok isn't designed in such a way that it can never hurt you. It's not a magic button that instantly makes the situation easier. Instead, it has equal ability to help you and hurt you. Realising this is the beginning of a player's journey to mastering the thok. Understandably, many players never make this realisation because again, no other game is like this. I think this is, most of the time, the schism that causes newbies to have a hard time using the thok. As an additional note, the thok is also the only ability within SRB2 that is like this.
What do I think the solution is? To be honest, I don't know. I am personally a fan of the way the thok demands thoughtfulness and strategy. It provides an interesting gameplay dynamic and sets it apart from other abilities from other games. STJr could simply nerf its speed, which would make it more similar to Adventure's air dash. But I think a good replacement for it should have an equal demandingness of thoughtfulness and strategy.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I've pointed it out before, but I see this less as a failing of the thok and more as a failing of level design. You don't, for example, have this issue in Greenflower Zone and it's not really an issue in Techno Hill either. Where does this become an issue? In stages that expect the player to slow down and do more careful platforming, such as Arid Canyon and Castle Eggman.
The problem with the thok isn't that it's dangerous, it's that the player is being thrusted into situations by the level design that make it dangerous. If you were to take Mania's Drop Dash and try to use it in Sonic Advance 3's Chaos Angel, you'd find yourself falling into bottomless pits with it left and right, and it would be especially dangerous in Act 3. The level design lacks harmony with that moveset.
That's not to say that these slower platforming sections shouldn't exist or have no place in SRB2, but I do think that the main pathway should focus more on having harmony with Sonic's moveset by giving him terrain that plays well with the thok by letting him build up speed with it if desired, with the challenge coming from using it to skillfully evade obstacles that less experienced players can more easily avoid by taking it slow. Sonic 1, 2, and 3 generally try to avoid forcing the player to slow down for tricky platforming sections until very close to the end of the game, instead allowing speedy players to bypass such obstacles by taking a route that avoids them. SRB2 could do the same by splitting the main path into harder and easier versions, or by limiting these slower and more dangerous portions to shortcuts accessible to Tails and Knuckles. Splits in the pathway could give a visual cue as to which is easier by having the easier pathway look "intended", and the harder pathway look dangerous, perhaps even more ominous like something you should avoid. Taking this path would be a faster way to the goal, but also more difficult.
Mystyc Cheez
Member
At this point it would make more sense to develop Sonic Robo Blast 3. If the thok is being replaced, you need to make level design work around the replacement. If the momentum is being overhauled, you need to make level design work for that too. Why remake the game from the ground up and call it an update when you can 'simply' make another game instead since the changes will be nothing less than drastic in the best possible case scenario.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
It's the opposite. They're not changing the level design, and that's why they're changing the physics and Sonic's ability; Because there's already a lack of harmony. I don't take issue with the new physics, but changing Sonic's ability to slow him down to play nice with level design that is built around slowing down feels backwards to me. Sonic doesn't need new tools that slow him down and/or give him stronger verticality. He needs the levels to be built more in harmony with his toolkit. Unfortunately, redesigning and balancing out the levels to fit Sonic's existing toolkit is harder than just replacing the thok, and so we're in the current predicament.
PencilVoid
Circuit Enthusiast
I totally see your point. I've always felt that SRB2's level design could do with (another) revamp. The level design philosophy shares a lot with the design philosophy that gives the thok its issues, and level layouts and abilities are very intertwined. Alternate character paths would be beneficial, but the issue is that other characters like Tails and Metal Sonic can easily take paths meant for Sonic. The Megadrive titles didn't really have alternate paths for Tails so we don't have a point of reference to work with in that regard.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I don't see this as an issue. Sonic's path would be the main path. The advantage to playing Sonic on this path would be that you can do so faster. Alternative pathways meant for other characters would serve these functions:
-Provide a faster way to reach the goal that Sonic doesn't have access to, or that at least require more skill for Sonic players to reach.
-Provide platforming challenges more fine tailored to specific characters that don't play so well with Sonic's moveset.
Meanwhile, more readily accessible alternate pathways more meant for Sonic to access could be like I mentioned before:
These paths could even be more reminiscent of the levels we already have in the game, occasionally punishing the player for using the thok. The difference would be that this would be constrained to optional pathways that are more clearly defined as being risk vs reward. Take the risk of taking the ominous looking shortcut and you might be rewarded with a faster clear time. Players dealing with the consequences of thokking too much in these places would only have themselves to blame for taking that route when they could have taken the safer, slower route to the goal.
There's also a lot of creative potential in how these paths could be visually cued. Flickering lights in a less maintained hallway with yellow tape attempting (and failing) to block entry in Techno Hill Act 2, an air of darkness with bats coming out when you approach a side cave in Red Volcano, explosives lining the entrance and walls with danger signs at the path entrance in Arid Canyon, etc.
I'd say that these would function like this:
-The entrance into these pathways/shortcuts would be placed out of reach of Sonic.
-The gaps between platforms would be larger than Sonic could leap over, even with thok. Tails could fly over the gaps and Knuckles could glide across.
-Some jumps would require more height than Sonic can achieve with his jump. Tails could fly over these obstacles and Knuckles could climb over them or simply walk through destructible portions of them.
-For true Tails exclusivity, these gaps/jumps could be made large enough that only Tails' flight grants access to them, with nothing to grab onto beneath them. Knuckles and Metal would be unable to glide up to them since they only cover horizontal movement, and with nothing to grab onto Knuckles can't climb up either.
LegoLoco7
LEGO/Sonic/Minecraft Gamer
Agreed, I'd rather have new level design to work with the thok better than replace the thok outright.
Noah Infinity
I exist
Ok, I've now seen an example of a potential thok replacement (the one with water bouncing, climbing and the trick jump), and I can form a better opinion on it:
Nah.
Let me be clear that whatever STJR have planned for 2.3 and beyond is completely up to them. I am but a fan with opinions, while they are the ones behind everything. They need not listen to people with a lower level of understanding of their creation if they don't want to. But, it might be handy to get outsiders opinion on additions and changes intended to ease newcomers into SRB2 instead of going off assumptions alone. From what I could tell from footage and written gameplay instructions, this potential replacement would be way more confusing for newcomers than a thok, for what is supposed to be a change designed for beginner players.
Lets break it down.
SRB2 is a game made to be like a classic Sonic platformer but in 3D. A major benefit of the old Genesis/Mega Drive games was that each button did the exact same thing so that it wouldn't be complex for anyone new to the game. One could easily get through the game by use of the left and right directions on the D-Pad and just one of the 3 buttons a Genesis/Mega Drive shipped with on their controller. The thing is, different combinations with the buttons and D-Pad would result in a different move. Down + A/B/C = Spin Dash, Up + A/B/C = Super Peel Out, A/B/C + A/B/C in mid-air = Insta-Shield, etc. More skilled players could take advantage of these skills and find more success than a less experienced player, but the games (as far as I'm aware I haven't played any of the classic games in a while) never force you to use these skills. It's a matter of choice.
Because SRB2 was designed to be like the Genesis/Mega Drive games, SRB2 also uses this philosophy of simplicity that can be mastered to great effect if the player chooses to. The thok is but an extention of this philosophy. All it takes to use is the user's assigned jump button + the jump button in mid-air. Extremely simple to use, with good result. From there, it can either be used to its fullest potential, or hardly used at all. A more experienced player would thok every waking second for the fastest time, while a less experienced player would prefer the safety of a singular jump and regular running to ensure they make it to the end, to give some examples.
This replacement scheme would instead have the jump button be held for different results. Keep the jump button held and land on a floor-like surface and it will give you a small, diagonal hop in the direction of the player's choosing. Keep the jump button held and land on a wall and it will let you spindash on it to climb up said wall. Release the jump button in mid-air for a trick like double jump. While it may seem like it follows the philosophy of simplicity that can be mastered if the player chooses to, already you have a vast amount of abilities that would only end up confusing new players. A trick like double jump that would only activate on release? Wouldn't pressing the jump button twice be better for that? Why would players need to climb on a wall at any point as Sonic? What's the point in the hop for speed building if regular acceleration or a spin dash or the thok does it better?
Now, I know newcomers are new but they also aren't stupid. I'm sure that given time, they'd be able to adapt and make use of these skills just as effectively as the thok. But if these moves confuse me in terms of their practical uses when compared to the thok, an experienced player that can easily get from start to finish with base vanilla Sonic, who's to say it won't also confuse little Timmy who's just trying out SRB2 thanks to his favourite Sonictuber? He might not be able to process how to work these techniques or be able to make use out of them in any way. Yes, the same can go for the thok too. Timmy might prefer the trick double jump to the thok. Same for vice versa. You need to be able to please both crowds and the newcomers in order for satisfied players.
The best way I can see STJR appeasing both crowds is including both techniques in, to be toggled just like the movement styles and camera settings in 2.2. Default mode could be the new skills and could be recommended to more inexperienced players, while a Classic mode could be the thok in all its thokking glory, recommended to more experienced players. This is something that others here have mentioned in this thread and something I wholeheartedly agree with if the thok just has to be replaced in the eyes of STJR. I obviously don't like how the potential new skills look in terms of playability and accessibility, but as I just said: appeasing both crowds is better than only appeasing one.
There'll likely be an addon restoring either the thok or the potential new skills when these changes come either way anyways.
TL;DR: I personally prefer the thok over the potential new skills, but adding both as a togglable setting is better than replacing the thok entirely or scrapping the new skills entirely.
Nah.
Let me be clear that whatever STJR have planned for 2.3 and beyond is completely up to them. I am but a fan with opinions, while they are the ones behind everything. They need not listen to people with a lower level of understanding of their creation if they don't want to. But, it might be handy to get outsiders opinion on additions and changes intended to ease newcomers into SRB2 instead of going off assumptions alone. From what I could tell from footage and written gameplay instructions, this potential replacement would be way more confusing for newcomers than a thok, for what is supposed to be a change designed for beginner players.
Lets break it down.
SRB2 is a game made to be like a classic Sonic platformer but in 3D. A major benefit of the old Genesis/Mega Drive games was that each button did the exact same thing so that it wouldn't be complex for anyone new to the game. One could easily get through the game by use of the left and right directions on the D-Pad and just one of the 3 buttons a Genesis/Mega Drive shipped with on their controller. The thing is, different combinations with the buttons and D-Pad would result in a different move. Down + A/B/C = Spin Dash, Up + A/B/C = Super Peel Out, A/B/C + A/B/C in mid-air = Insta-Shield, etc. More skilled players could take advantage of these skills and find more success than a less experienced player, but the games (as far as I'm aware I haven't played any of the classic games in a while) never force you to use these skills. It's a matter of choice.
Because SRB2 was designed to be like the Genesis/Mega Drive games, SRB2 also uses this philosophy of simplicity that can be mastered to great effect if the player chooses to. The thok is but an extention of this philosophy. All it takes to use is the user's assigned jump button + the jump button in mid-air. Extremely simple to use, with good result. From there, it can either be used to its fullest potential, or hardly used at all. A more experienced player would thok every waking second for the fastest time, while a less experienced player would prefer the safety of a singular jump and regular running to ensure they make it to the end, to give some examples.
This replacement scheme would instead have the jump button be held for different results. Keep the jump button held and land on a floor-like surface and it will give you a small, diagonal hop in the direction of the player's choosing. Keep the jump button held and land on a wall and it will let you spindash on it to climb up said wall. Release the jump button in mid-air for a trick like double jump. While it may seem like it follows the philosophy of simplicity that can be mastered if the player chooses to, already you have a vast amount of abilities that would only end up confusing new players. A trick like double jump that would only activate on release? Wouldn't pressing the jump button twice be better for that? Why would players need to climb on a wall at any point as Sonic? What's the point in the hop for speed building if regular acceleration or a spin dash or the thok does it better?
Now, I know newcomers are new but they also aren't stupid. I'm sure that given time, they'd be able to adapt and make use of these skills just as effectively as the thok. But if these moves confuse me in terms of their practical uses when compared to the thok, an experienced player that can easily get from start to finish with base vanilla Sonic, who's to say it won't also confuse little Timmy who's just trying out SRB2 thanks to his favourite Sonictuber? He might not be able to process how to work these techniques or be able to make use out of them in any way. Yes, the same can go for the thok too. Timmy might prefer the trick double jump to the thok. Same for vice versa. You need to be able to please both crowds and the newcomers in order for satisfied players.
The best way I can see STJR appeasing both crowds is including both techniques in, to be toggled just like the movement styles and camera settings in 2.2. Default mode could be the new skills and could be recommended to more inexperienced players, while a Classic mode could be the thok in all its thokking glory, recommended to more experienced players. This is something that others here have mentioned in this thread and something I wholeheartedly agree with if the thok just has to be replaced in the eyes of STJR. I obviously don't like how the potential new skills look in terms of playability and accessibility, but as I just said: appeasing both crowds is better than only appeasing one.
There'll likely be an addon restoring either the thok or the potential new skills when these changes come either way anyways.
TL;DR: I personally prefer the thok over the potential new skills, but adding both as a togglable setting is better than replacing the thok entirely or scrapping the new skills entirely.