How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

[Julia]

Personally, I'm kinda for both sides here. I LOVE the Thok, it's got a skill ceiling that's pretty high and it is pretty dangerous at points, but provided you can use it right, it makes blasting through levels a breeze and it's really fun to use once you take the time to master it.

Then there's the Power Spin. I can't exactly speak for it yet as there's no current way for us to mess around with it at all, but judging from the gif, I think it's got some potential to it, giving Sonic a form of verticality. I think it may be a tad confusing to figure out at first, but once players master it, I think it could lead to interesting speedruns or superplays. Of course, most of this is pure speculation as (obviously) I don't have access to any SRB2 builds with the Power Spin in them, I'm simply a fan of this game looking at it all, not a developer.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

The thok should stay, this new power spin ability totally takes away the fun/skill that the thok used to have

 

[Julia]

The thok should stay, this new power spin ability totally takes away the fun/skill that the thok used to have

I don't exactly think so, I think the double jump side of the Power Spin has some horizontal influence, so maybe that part could be the "Thok" of 2.3? It seems a lot less strong, but maybe that's good for the beginners.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

I don't exactly think so, I think the double jump side of the Power Spin has some horizontal influence, so maybe that part could be the "Thok" of 2.3? It seems a lot less strong, but maybe that's good for the beginners.

This is exactly why I don't want the thok replaced, because all I see this ability doing is cater to people that don't want to learn how to use it. This new power spin just freely gives sonic vertical movement so then "newer players can use!", its completely disregards sonic as a character, and also disregarding classic sonic as a whole

 

[Julia]

This is exactly why I don't want the thok replaced, because all I see this ability doing is cater to people that don't want to learn how to use it. This new power spin just freely gives sonic vertical movement so then "newer players can use!", its completely disregards sonic as a character, and also disregarding classic sonic as a whole

Personally, I think a lot of people disliking the thok has to do with its skill ceiling compared to a move like the Insta-Shield or even Homing Attack. The latter two are a lot easier to master, while the thok takes time. Not everyone wants to put in the time to master it, which should be respected, and the Power Spin kinda rectifies it with its double jump kinda being a jump thok with an uncurl.

 

[Nickyogurt]

So I've seen a few people suggest "have the Thok be toggleable in the settings!". At first it seems like a good idea but if you stop to think about it for a sec, you're basically cramming 2 characters into one since the abilities are so different.
I'm pretty sure this is gonna create a bunch of problems, but the main one I see is this:

Let's say you're creating a stage and, following in time gear's steps, you make a main path, one that Sonic can easily speed through, and a faster but harder to access path, so the other characters can take shortcuts to keep up with Sonic. How exactly are you supposed to design a "Sonic path" if "Sonic" can be 2 different characters? Unless the Power Spin is so similar to the Thok that it wouldn't make a big difference in level design, but I don't think that's the case. Like discussed earlier, if the solution for an ability that lives up to the Thok but fixes its problems was so simple, it would've been done already.

This might also create an issue with competitive gameplay, since they're might have to restrict Sonic's ability to only one to avoid confusion, 'cause two speedruns with "Sonic" could take completely different routes, and they'd have to split Sonic into 2 categories.
Basically, if the Thok gets reduced to an extra option and isn't available in competitive scenes (because Sonic's "real" ability is the Power Spin), a lot of people will still get mad for not being able to use it, since they've been practicing with it for so long.

I might just be dumb and not realizing a solution for what I just described though, if that's the case then sorry about that lol
Edit: Fixed a typo

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

Personally, I think a lot of people disliking the thok has to do with its skill ceiling compared to a move like the Insta-Shield or even Homing Attack. The latter two are a lot easier to master, while the thok takes time. Not everyone wants to put in the time to master it, which should be respected, and the Power Spin kinda rectifies it with its double jump kinda being a jump thok with an uncurl.

If you don't want to put in time to master the thok, then play a simpler character and let everyone else that did master the thok have fun

 

[Julia]

If you don't want to put in time to master the thok, then play a simpler character and let everyone else that did master the thok have fun

Realistically, we both know nobody's going to do that. Sonic is literally everybody's go to because, and nobody'll ever believe this, but his name is literally on the game. Everyone wants to play as the main guy first.

 

[time gear]

Personally, I think a lot of people disliking the thok has to do with its skill ceiling compared to a move like the Insta-Shield or even Homing Attack. The latter two are a lot easier to master, while the thok takes time. Not everyone wants to put in the time to master it, which should be respected, and the Power Spin kinda rectifies it with its double jump kinda being a jump thok with an uncurl.

If you don't want to put in time to master the thok, then play a simpler character and let everyone else that did master the thok have fun

Realistically, we both know nobody's going to do that. Sonic is literally everybody's go to because, and nobody'll ever believe this, but his name is literally on the game. Everyone wants to play as the main guy first.

This is all just circling back around to completely misunderstanding the problem to begin with. The problem isn't the high skill ceiling. A high skill ceiling doesn't make a move hard, it just increases how good you can get with it over time. How hard a move is has to do with the skill floor, which limits how good you HAVE to be with it to use it practically. The skill floor, however, also isn't the problem with the thok.

The problem with the thok is that it doesn't fit the level design. The two have to go hand in hand. The thok works because of its simplicity, but the level design isn't built around it and so it ends up becoming too dangerous for new players. If the level design was built more around complimenting the thok so that players can grow their skill with it naturally without constantly getting themselves killed by overshooting their jumps, new players wouldn't be having an issue with it.

Part of the reason so many of us that have played the game for longer are so passionate about the thok is likely in part due to the fact that the levels never used to have this problem. Back in the day when there was only Greenflower, Techno Hill, and Castle Eggman, there weren't many if any bottomless pits in the game. The levels were structured more like playgrounds for us to practice our movement in, and so since the thok wasn't getting us killed we were able to grow our skills more naturally over time.

If you travel along the timeline a bit to start to notice when the thok started to get treated as a problem, it's after some of the newer levels got added and the older levels (in particular Castle Eggman) got redesigned. Now, instead of the levels being built safe for the thok, they're starting to resemble hallways littered with bottomless pits. SRB2 might actually be starting to become one of the Sonic games that uses bottomless pits (and close equivalents) the most, opting for a design mentality of suspending pathways in the middle of giant chasms that seem to be demanding the player to slow down and be careful to progress, with many of these obstacles being unavoidable during progression.

The solution is to chill a bit with the death hazards. Stop leaning on platforming sections that demand inexperienced players to slow down or else face death as a level design crutch and section these types of level design off into their own optional pathways for the experienced players.

As for the Power Spin, I still want to reserve judging it too much, but I do definitely agree with the sentiments getting passed around that it's too complicated. If you can't expect new players to be able to figure out something as simple as the thok, it's only going to get worse when new players have to figure out the context sensitivity of every little nuance to the power spin. It kind of flies in the very face of the simple design that 2D Sonic (and even 3D Sonic) is known for, and tries to give Sonic a toolset he doesn't need.

Tails and Knuckles are the vertical characters. Sonic is about speed. He goes fast by rolling and jumping. The thok compliments this by giving him a tool to redirect his momentum in 3D space. Overshoot a jump? You can turn around and thok back to the platform for a safe landing. Sharp corners? Change direction on a dime with a well placed thok. These are skills that players will develop naturally over time if the level design isn't punishing them for using it.

 

[tabu]

I don't see why just making the thok momentum-based wouldn't suffice. Just have it not go particularly far when Sonic's at a standstill but perhaps make it boost you even further than the <2.2 thok once you're at higher speeds? And maybe holding jump after could give you a slight vertical boost but not full xmomentum jump boost since it's a bit busted IMO though yeah point is I think Frostiikin has come closest to the right idea lol. A slower thok that gives you a boost would certainly help trepid new players more than the current thok at least, and I see it as a simple way to lower the skill floor AND potentially raise the skill ceiling without having to outright remove an oldbie staple (and in part just a 3D Sonic staple). I don't think giving Sonic a drop dash helps new players not slip off cliffs anyway lol.

Personally I like current SRB2's obstacle-focused level design. There's enough Sonic fan games with giant cliffless Sonic Utopia maps. Hell the official games are going that direction now. And I honestly just don't think the problem with the thok is that you can shoot off cliffs with it. That's what makes it fun! Yeah, it's easy to fall off cliffs in Arid Canyon Zone. It's also easy to fall off cliffs in Hill Top Zone. <2.2 Sonic's top speed on the ground is horrifically sluggish which I think might be the real problem in that it forces new players to either abuse the thok or watch the fastest thing alive go for a nice jog, unlike any official Sonic game they've played including the 16-bit titles SRB2 is so proud of associating itself with. Just giving him proper momentum would go a long way even if the thok was completely unchanged. Some levels could certainly use more paths but it doesn't have to be at the expense of the current game's late-game challenge IMO.

 

[Cheeseboi!]

Thok was never good.

why

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

This is all just circling back around to completely misunderstanding the problem to begin with. The problem isn't the high skill ceiling. A high skill ceiling doesn't make a move hard, it just increases how good you can get with it over time. How hard a move is has to do with the skill floor, which limits how good you HAVE to be with it to use it practically. The skill floor, however, also isn't the problem with the thok.

The problem with the thok is that it doesn't fit the level design. The two have to go hand in hand. The thok works because of its simplicity, but the level design isn't built around it and so it ends up becoming too dangerous for new players. If the level design was built more around complimenting the thok so that players can grow their skill with it naturally without constantly getting themselves killed by overshooting their jumps, new players wouldn't be having an issue with it.

Part of the reason so many of us that have played the game for longer are so passionate about the thok is likely in part due to the fact that the levels never used to have this problem. Back in the day when there was only Greenflower, Techno Hill, and Castle Eggman, there weren't many if any bottomless pits in the game. The levels were structured more like playgrounds for us to practice our movement in, and so since the thok wasn't getting us killed we were able to grow our skills more naturally over time.

If you travel along the timeline a bit to start to notice when the thok started to get treated as a problem, it's after some of the newer levels got added and the older levels (in particular Castle Eggman) got redesigned. Now, instead of the levels being built safe for the thok, they're starting to resemble hallways littered with bottomless pits. SRB2 might actually be starting to become one of the Sonic games that uses bottomless pits (and close equivalents) the most, opting for a design mentality of suspending pathways in the middle of giant chasms that seem to be demanding the player to slow down and be careful to progress, with many of these obstacles being unavoidable during progression.

The solution is to chill a bit with the death hazards. Stop leaning on platforming sections that demand inexperienced players to slow down or else face death as a level design crutch and section these types of level design off into their own optional pathways for the experienced players.

As for the Power Spin, I still want to reserve judging it too much, but I do definitely agree with the sentiments getting passed around that it's too complicated. If you can't expect new players to be able to figure out something as simple as the thok, it's only going to get worse when new players have to figure out the context sensitivity of every little nuance to the power spin. It kind of flies in the very face of the simple design that 2D Sonic (and even 3D Sonic) is known for, and tries to give Sonic a toolset he doesn't need.

Tails and Knuckles are the vertical characters. Sonic is about speed. He goes fast by rolling and jumping. The thok compliments this by giving him a tool to redirect his momentum in 3D space. Overshoot a jump? You can turn around and thok back to the platform for a safe landing. Sharp corners? Change direction on a dime with a well placed thok. These are skills that players will develop naturally over time if the level design isn't punishing them for using it.

The problem with the thok is that it doesn't fit the level design.

 

[time gear]

View attachment 92430

Niche examples of it being used to the player's benefit (though in a distinctly slow way that isn't at all intuitive in the gif you provided) aren't at all what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the design the game starts to take up after (or even a little bit during, if you count the elevator shaft) Techno Hill in regards to the overuse of death traps that force the player to slow down and do careful platforming to progress, getting the player killed if they thok.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

Niche examples of it being used to the player's benefit (though in a distinctly slow way that isn't at all intuitive in the gif you provided) aren't at all what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the design the game starts to take up after (or even a little bit during, if you count the elevator shaft) Techno Hill in regards to the overuse of death traps that force the player to slow down and do careful platforming to progress, getting the player killed if they thok.

"over use of death traps"
there's bottomless pits in 3 zones in srb2, and most of those pits aren't even in normal gameplay
and, your complaining about careful platforming? wasn't that in almost every classic sonic game anyways? Why would you thok during careful platforming sections anyways if your new??
also, here's some more examples of the thok going well with level design.

Post automatically merged: May 29, 2023

"over use of death traps"
there's bottomless pits in 3 zones in srb2, and most of those pits aren't even in normal gameplay
and, your complaining about careful platforming? wasn't that in almost every classic sonic game anyways? Why would you thok during careful platforming sections anyways if your new??
also, here's some more examples of the thok going well with level design.

if you REALLY hate death pits and you still wanna keep the thok, then there's a little option called "sonic and tails". it allows tails to carry you and .... gasp skip the death pits entirely!

 

[time gear]

"over use of death traps"
there's bottomless pits in 3 zones in srb2, and most of those pits aren't even in normal gameplay

Bottomless pits are only one form of death trap, but even if we only count bottomless pits, just off the top of my head within the main campaign they appear in:
-Techno Hill Zone Act 2 (The Elevator Shaft)
-Castle Eggman Zone
-Arid Canyon Zone
-Red Volcano Zone
-Egg Rock Zone

That's not even including other death traps such as Electric floors, lava, etc. which are used similarly. And yes, they appear in normal gameplay, many of them are unavoidable.

and, your complaining about careful platforming? wasn't that in almost every classic sonic game anyways?

No, I'm complaining about mandatory pathways that overuse death traps such as bottomless pits in a way that directly punish you for using the title characters main ability in the game. Careful platforming was in the classic games, but not in a way that punished you for tapping the jump button twice. The Drop Dash was added into all the old 2D classics in Sonic Origins for example, but you don't see people complaining about rolling to their death into bottomless pits because the design didn't overuse them. Likewise, you don't see many people demanding that the drop dash be removed for being problematic for new players, because it plays well with the level design even if only by accident.

Why would you thok during careful platforming sections anyways if your new??

Because of expectations. SRB2's unlikely to be your first game. By the time you get to SRB2, other games are likely to have taught you that your double jump ability is a platforming aid. When you attempt this in SRB2 early on, such as in Greenflower Zone, it works out alright. Later levels start sprinkling in more and more of these death traps that punish the thok (or just going fast without knowing what you're doing in general) however, and so the lesson new players end up getting taught is not to use the thok as a platforming aid because it's dangerous, which doesn't have to be true.

also, here's some more examples of the thok going well with level design.

This is going to be true on occasion regardless, and this is because of the point I keep making: The thok isn't the problem. It's a simple mechanic with which all the nuance comes from player skill. If you start getting good with it, it's going to mesh at least a little bit well with almost any level design from time to time, at least until the sections that actively punish it.

if you REALLY hate death pits and you still wanna keep the thok,

I don't hate death pits. I just want them to be placed in the level design of the main pathway in a way that doesn't punish players for thokking or just going fast in general. Death pits and the thok aren't counter to each other. You can have both. Even without the Sonic and Tails option. It's just a matter of how the Death pits are placed in the levels.

 

[Mystyc Cheez]

As a long time srb2 player, I've forgotten what its like to be new, so hearing that the thok doesn't fit the level design is hard to grasp. I think the thok is very usable for most of the game and in fact makes some sections easier.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

Bottomless pits are only one form of death trap, but even if we only count bottomless pits, just off the top of my head within the main campaign they appear in:
-Techno Hill Zone Act 2 (The Elevator Shaft)
-Castle Eggman Zone
-Arid Canyon Zone
-Red Volcano Zone
-Egg Rock Zone

That's not even including other death traps such as Electric floors, lava, etc. which are used similarly. And yes, they appear in normal gameplay, many of them are unavoidable.

No, I'm complaining about mandatory pathways that overuse death traps such as bottomless pits in a way that directly punish you for using the title characters main ability in the game. Careful platforming was in the classic games, but not in a way that punished you for tapping the jump button twice. The Drop Dash was added into all the old 2D classics in Sonic Origins for example, but you don't see people complaining about rolling to their death into bottomless pits because the design didn't overuse them. Likewise, you don't see many people demanding that the drop dash be removed for being problematic for new players, because it plays well with the level design even if only by accident.

Because of expectations. SRB2's unlikely to be your first game. By the time you get to SRB2, other games are likely to have taught you that your double jump ability is a platforming aid. When you attempt this in SRB2 early on, such as in Greenflower Zone, it works out alright. Later levels start sprinkling in more and more of these death traps that punish the thok (or just going fast without knowing what you're doing in general) however, and so the lesson new players end up getting taught is not to use the thok as a platforming aid because it's dangerous, which doesn't have to be true.

This is going to be true on occasion regardless, and this is because of the point I keep making: The thok isn't the problem. It's a simple mechanic with which all the nuance comes from player skill. If you start getting good with it, it's going to mesh at least a little bit well with almost any level design from time to time, at least until the sections that actively punish it.

I don't hate death pits. I just want them to be placed in the level design of the main pathway in a way that doesn't punish players for thokking or just going fast in general. Death pits and the thok aren't counter to each other. You can have both. Even without the Sonic and Tails option. It's just a matter of how the Death pits are placed in the levels.

idk what to tell you, if YOU the player use the thok and fall into any of these pits/death traps, its purely YOUR fault because YOU knew that it could happen, yet you did it anyways and now your dead. You know what happens then? you LEARN what to NOT TO DO next time, and appeal the strategy, its not the level design its just basic trial and error gameplay. If you played ANY video game before hand you should know about this, and shouldn't automatically assume because you used an ability for the first time and you didn't use it well, then you should never use it ever again. That's just being ignorant.


and, again there's 2 other characters to play as.

 

[time gear]

if YOU the player use the thok and fall into any of these pits/death traps, its purely YOUR fault because YOU knew that it could happen, yet you did it anyways and now your dead. You know what happens then? you LEARN what to NOT TO DO next time, and appeal the strategy

While I agree with this in principle, the point I'm making is more along the lines of how the level design is leaning too hard into level design in which the "Don't use it" sections are too prominent, to the point that new players are learning the lesson that thok = bad.

It's true that some sections of levels are going to discourage using certain options in your toolkit, such a thing can even be good level design. However, there has to be consideration taken into how this is handled. If you discourage a particular option too much, it creates a problem in which that option starts to be seen as bad. This is what's happening to the thok. New players are getting themselves killed with the thok, the lesson they learn from this is that the thok is bad, and STJR are then in turn taking this to mean that the thok is bad as well and needs to be replaced when the problem all along wasn't the thok itself, but the severity with which the game is discouraging using it.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

While I agree with this in principle, the point I'm making is more along the lines of how the level design is leaning too hard into level design in which the "Don't use it" sections are too prominent, to the point that new players are learning the lesson that thok = bad.

It's true that some sections of levels are going to discourage using certain options in your toolkit, such a thing can even be good level design. However, there has to be consideration taken into how this is handled. If you discourage a particular option too much, it creates a problem in which that option starts to be seen as bad. This is what's happening to the thok. New players are getting themselves killed with the thok, the lesson they learn from this is that the thok is bad, and STJR are then in turn taking this to mean that the thok is bad as well and needs to be replaced when the problem all along wasn't the thok itself, but the severity with which the game is discouraging using it.

You shouldn't interrupt the learning curve by simply giving the a answer to everything. The thok CAN in fact be used in most platforming sections that have bottomless pits, it can even aid the player if used well. Keyword, used well. There's other things you can get out constantly killing yourself with the thok. "Hey, maybe I should try and strafe to the right well using it", "Hey, maybe I should hold back, maybe that way it will go a little slower!" "Hey, maybe I should move back a little before using it, that way I can increase by chances of landing on this platform." Instantly going to the "Oh, it seems like this move is back because I thokked into death, its totally not MY fault." is not only ignorant, but its a bad way of thinking in general.

 

[time gear]

You shouldn't interrupt the learning curve by simply giving the a answer to everything. The thok CAN in fact be used in most platforming sections that have bottomless pits, it can even aid the player if used well. Keyword, used well. There's other things you can get out constantly killing yourself with the thok. "Hey, maybe I should try and strafe to the right well using it", "Hey, maybe I should hold back, maybe that way it will go a little slower!" "Hey, maybe I should move back a little before using it, that way I can increase by chances of landing on this platform." Instantly going to the "Oh, it seems like this move is back because I thokked into death, its totally not MY fault." is not only ignorant, but its a bad way of thinking in general.

You're missing the point again. Once again, I agree with this in principle but the problem is one of execution, not presence. The levels are built in a way that the thok only gets more and more punished with time. While a skilled player can work around this by using the thok to their advantage, a new player doesn't have that luxury because they haven't built that skill yet. When their experience using the thok is that it gets them killed more often than not, the lesson that teaches them is that they shouldn't use it.

Think about it like this: Imagine a game with a double jump. You tab the jump button a second time, you jump again midair for some added height. Pretty simple maneuver, lots of potential for nuance if applied skillfully. Many, many games have used this exact ability to great effect, so clearly double jumping isn't "bad", right?

Now imagine a game in which many of the levels are designed with instant kill spikes above the player that a single jump usually won't reach but that double jumping is often punished by, and double jump is largely entirely optional for progression. It's not a ceiling of spikes, they're placed in a way that they can be avoided by skilled players and skilled players can even use the double jump to great effect, enhancing their progression through the level. New players don't have that same level of skill however, and so they find that as they get deeper and deeper into the game and things keep getting harder, the double jump is proving to just be a bad option to them.

This is basically SRB2's thok. New players get punished for using it severely enough combined with progression generally not requiring it that the lesson they are learning is not to use it almost ever. This creates the perception that the move is bad, when it's not the move that is the problem. They can't be expected to get better with it naturally over time when the game is actively discouraging using it like this, and so us veterans who are already good with it are naturally advantaged when it comes to being able to see the upsides to keeping it.