Metal Knuckles & Tails Doll - Sonic R Characters

Metal Knuckles & Tails Doll - Sonic R Characters V1.2

Super colors for Sonic characters tend to be based on their standard color, in the sense that characters with cool colors receive a golden hue, while characters with warm colors receive a pink or white hue.

S3 Mecha Sonic's super form is a darker golden, so it actually follows the formula I just mentioned -- Metal Sonic's super form in SRB2 isn't too far off from this, only in that it contains a bit more red than yellow. It seem like there's room for interpretation here, but my guess is that for Metal Knuckles, a similar orange or pink color would follow all previously set conventions the most closely.

I'd agree to disagree then. Super is only yellow on characters that are "Male hedgehogs" according to Iizuka, and while I tend to disagree with Iizuka, it makes sense here. Other characters look very weird with yellow as their Super form color unless their default is blue, again, yellow and blue are complimentary.

For MK, since he's based ON Knuckles, it only makes sense that he'd follow with a pinkish Super color. Again, allow me to refer to Neo Metal Sonic's super form from the IDW comics, which is yellow. Mania (and for that matter, 3&K) gave non-Sonic/blue characters a glow instead of an actual color, and for MK, that makes sense. Same game that gave Mecha a glowing orange, mind you.
 
If I had to take a stab at it, I would say pink is probably the truest, purest color a super form can take, but that only Knuckles resonates with the emeralds in such a way as to obtain that color due to him being the Emerald Guardian. Simply put, Knuckles knows how to resonate with them better than Sonic, and perhaps was even trained to at a young age.

What???????????? No, I'm pretty sure that hedgehogs resonate with the emeralds WAY more, considering they all have their APPEARANCE change, AND don't just glow their own color. Plus, Mighty glows pink in Sonic Mania Plus, and that's the first time he's ever dealt with the Chaos Emeralds. (Unless you count Sonic Mania Adventures, but who knows if that's canon compared to Encore Mode)
 
I'd agree to disagree then. Super is only yellow on characters that are "Male hedgehogs" according to Iizuka, and while I tend to disagree with Iizuka, it makes sense here. Other characters look very weird with yellow as their Super form color unless their default is blue, again, yellow and blue are complimentary.

It's weird that you disagree, since you just made an argument explaining my point. Golden/yellow/warm hues are chosen for characters with cool colors (blue) because it compliments their standard color scheme. The only other male hedgehogs anyone has to go off of in official Sonic canon are Shadow and Silver, who are both color-neutral and thus incorporate more white than yellow into their super color.

I think some people are reading too much into it from a lore perspective when it's more than likely just a matter of the designer applying artistic color theory.
 
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It's weird that you disagree, since you just made an argument explaining my point. Golden/yellow/warm hues are chosen for characters with cool colors (blue) because it compliments their standard color scheme. The only other male hedgehogs anyone has to go off of in official Sonic canon are Shadow and Silver, who are both color-neutral and thus incorporate more white than yellow into their super color.

I think some people are reading too much into it from a lore perspective when it's more than likely just a matter of the designer applying artistic color theory.

Again though, they're male hedgehogs.

Metal Sonic counts under that, even as a robot, because he's a Sonic clone, but Metal Knuckles isn't and as a Knuckles clone, he'd be ideally matching Knuckles's supercolor.
 
What???????????? No, I'm pretty sure that hedgehogs resonate with the emeralds WAY more, considering they all have their APPEARANCE change, AND don't just glow their own color. Plus, Mighty glows pink in Sonic Mania Plus, and that's the first time he's ever dealt with the Chaos Emeralds. (Unless you count Sonic Mania Adventures, but who knows if that's canon compared to Encore Mode)

Letting out massive amounts of power and undergoing full transformations doesn't necessarily imply better resonating with the emeralds. There's an argument to be made that Knuckles' transformation is a more controlled one compared to say, Sonic or Shadow. Letting loose less power at once in exchange for an efficiency boost. Super Sonic is admittedly a force of nature, and as time has gone on Sonic does definitely seem to have learned to harness that power better and better. It's to the point now where Sonic doesn't even really need to turn Super at all anymore. However, at the time of the classic series that wasn't yet the case. Sonic was likely taking a huge risk in drawing out that much power at once, and likely couldn't help it anyway due to not knowing how to hold it back.

As for Mighty, he doesn't really glow pink like Knuckles does, it's more like his natural red just becomes slightly more luminous. It might be something somewhat similar to Knuckles, but unintentionally on his part as he's simply unable to draw out the massive bursts of power that Sonic can. If that's the case, I would describe his case less as "controlled" and more as "incomplete". It's probably the same thing going on as with Ray, where his yellow glow isn't the same thing as Super Sonic, but rather is a natural consequence of his natural fur color becoming more luminous.
 
Letting out massive amounts of power and undergoing full transformations doesn't necessarily imply better resonating with the emeralds. There's an argument to be made that Knuckles' transformation is a more controlled one compared to say, Sonic or Shadow. Letting loose less power at once in exchange for an efficiency boost. Super Sonic is admittedly a force of nature, and as time has gone on Sonic does definitely seem to have learned to harness that power better and better. It's to the point now where Sonic doesn't even really need to turn Super at all anymore. However, at the time of the classic series that wasn't yet the case. Sonic was likely taking a huge risk in drawing out that much power at once, and likely couldn't help it anyway due to not knowing how to hold it back.

As for Mighty, he doesn't really glow pink like Knuckles does, it's more like his natural red just becomes slightly more luminous. It might be something somewhat similar to Knuckles, but unintentionally on his part as he's simply unable to draw out the massive bursts of power that Sonic can. If that's the case, I would describe his case less as "controlled" and more as "incomplete". It's probably the same thing going on as with Ray, where his yellow glow isn't the same thing as Super Sonic, but rather is a natural consequence of his natural fur color becoming more luminous.

I think this is pretty obvious but all of the classic characters besides Sonic just glow their base color, no matter what game. Knuckles isn't really glowing PINK, he's just glowing a brightened version of his base color.
 
Letting out massive amounts of power and undergoing full transformations doesn't necessarily imply better resonating with the emeralds. There's an argument to be made that Knuckles' transformation is a more controlled one compared to say, Sonic or Shadow. Letting loose less power at once in exchange for an efficiency boost. Super Sonic is admittedly a force of nature, and as time has gone on Sonic does definitely seem to have learned to harness that power better and better. It's to the point now where Sonic doesn't even really need to turn Super at all anymore. However, at the time of the classic series that wasn't yet the case. Sonic was likely taking a huge risk in drawing out that much power at once, and likely couldn't help it anyway due to not knowing how to hold it back.

Please explain to me how Knuckles lets loose less power in exchange for an efficiency boost, considering he's literally the power type character of Team Sonic and he has the same ring drain rate as Sonic.

As for Mighty, he doesn't really glow pink like Knuckles does, it's more like his natural red just becomes slightly more luminous. It might be something somewhat similar to Knuckles, but unintentionally on his part as he's simply unable to draw out the massive bursts of power that Sonic can. If that's the case, I would describe his case less as "controlled" and more as "incomplete". It's probably the same thing going on as with Ray, where his yellow glow isn't the same thing as Super Sonic, but rather is a natural consequence of his natural fur color becoming more luminous.

They have the same super color pallete in Mania. The difference is that Mighty's sprite uses more of the darker shades, while Knuckles' sprite uses more of the lighter shades. And I could argue that Knuckles turning pink is also just his red becoming more luminous too.

Wait why are we talking about super colors again? Oh right, Metal Knuckles. Uh... yeah, the creator can do whatever they want with his super color, I don't really care that much anymore since he doesn't have a special Super ability.
 
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Please explain to me how Knuckles lets loose less power in exchange for an efficiency boost, considering he's literally the power type character of Team Sonic and he has the same ring drain rate as Sonic.
After transforming, Knuckles doesn't gain the same height boost as Sonic when jumping. I think his jump height is actually the same as his base form, but I'm not entirely sure about that. What I do know is if you cheat him into Death Egg Zone in S3K, even in his super form he still can't beat the miniboss due to it requiring a higher jump height. However, Super Sonic and Super Knuckles have something else in common: Enhanced flight capabilities, though Knuckles' is less. Super Knuckles gains a boost to his gliding and climbing but still runs along the ground, while Super Sonic can outright fly (Though often only does so in boss fights. He does however represent this in normal gameplay via his running sprites.)

This gives the impression as though knuckles is drawing out less power. As much as he needs to complete whatever his current mission is more efficiently without overdoing it. Super Sonic on the other hand shows no such signs of holding back. His display of raw power is enormous, and they even updated his idle animation in Mania to represent this, with electric sparks coming off him occasionally.


They have the same super color pallete in Mania. The difference is that Mighty's sprite uses more of the darker shades, while Knuckles' sprite uses more of the lighter shades. And I could argue that Knuckles turning pink is also just his red becoming more luminous too.

In game color pallets mean nothing in regards to canon, that's all just technical stuff that saves memory by working within pallet restrictions. The way it visually appears is much more important, and you can clearly see Knuckles turning much more bright pink than Mighty.

The implication here is that Knuckles has a much more powerful aura than Mighty, rather than his fur just becoming more luminous. The amount of glow coming off Knuckles is much more reminiscent of Super Sonic for a brief moment while Mighty never looks that bright.
 
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tails doll is amazing to play as but compaired to the other characters hes kinda busted id say hes better at beating bosses than fang and you can do the last level in 3min easy also you can also insta sigsev by spaming shift on the last boss while hes vulnerable theres also stuff not mentioned like how you can walk on lava and spikes without taking damage
 
Just finished giving these two a test run. In short, I love it. For more detailed thoughts:

1. I like that both characters have abilities that are both powerful and unique. Metal Knuckles, for example, isn't just a metal copy of Knuckles, with Metal Sonic's boost. He doesn't have the precise control of Knuckles' glide, and he can't climb freely. He instead has abilities which are similar in goals to Knuckles' abilities, but sacrificing precision for speed. Similarly, Tails Doll doesn't have free flight, but he can reach high areas, and he sacrifices his ability to spin for a nifty Polygon Barrier.

2. I like that Tails Doll's red gem changes colors when he collects a shield. Instead of the shield displaying around him, his gem absorbs their abilities. And you can use the shield abilities by holding jump and pressing spin, so it doesn't clash with Tails Doll's in-air ability.

...Mostly. It takes some getting used to, and I find myself accidentally using shield abilities when I don't mean to. Maybe there could be a work around for this? Maybe assign Tails Doll's in-air ability to one of the extra buttons instead?

3. I do find it odd that Super Metal Knuckles turns kind of a golden color. I'm guessing he takes more after Super Metal Sonic than Super Knuckles, but I was expecting him to glow pink.

4. Is Tails Doll supposed to be able to go Super? It doesn't seem like it. Maybe this was a conscious decision to balance the character or something?

5. Speaking of Supers, I think both could benefit from having Super abilities. Metal Knuckles doesn't have a mid-air spin ability, so maybe give him one in Super form? For Super Tails Doll, maybe allow him to float higher?

6. I forgot to test this, but can Tails Doll's Polygon Barrier bust breakable floors? If not, he might get stuck in some levels.

---------- Post added at 01:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------

After transforming, Knuckles doesn't gain the same height boost as Sonic when jumping. I think his jump height is actually the same as his base form, but I'm not entirely sure about that. What I do know is if you cheat him into Death Egg Zone in S3K, even in his super form he still can't beat the miniboss due to it requiring a higher jump height. However, Super Sonic and Super Knuckles have something else in common: Enhanced flight capabilities, though Knuckles' is less. Super Knuckles gains a boost to his gliding and climbing but still runs along the ground, while Super Sonic can outright fly (Though often only does so in boss fights. He does however represent this in normal gameplay via his running sprites.)

This gives the impression as though knuckles is drawing out less power. As much as he needs to complete whatever his current mission is more efficiently without overdoing it. Super Sonic on the other hand shows no such signs of holding back. His display of raw power is enormous, and they even updated his idle animation in Mania to represent this, with electric sparks coming off him occasionally.

Super Knuckles is the only character not to get enhanced jump height when Super, and that is by design. Knuckles' weak jump is the only thing keeping him from taking Sonic's path. That's all it is about. The developers just wanted to keep Knuckles to Knuckles' paths.

In game color pallets mean nothing in regards to canon, that's all just technical stuff that saves memory by working within pallet restrictions. The way it visually appears is much more important, and you can clearly see Knuckles turning much more bright pink than Mighty.

The implication here is that Knuckles has a much more powerful aura than Mighty, rather than his fur just becoming more luminous. The amount of glow coming off Knuckles is much more reminiscent of Super Sonic for a brief moment while Mighty never looks that bright.

I think you're reading too much into this. Knuckles glows brighter because he's a brighter shade of red than Mighty is. Knuckles' base form is practically pink in Mania already. The pattern shown to us in S3&K, Mania, and other games where characters other than Sonic can go Super, is that hedgehogs glow yellow and everyone else glows a brighter shade of their original color. Tails and Ray shine yellow, Knuckles and Mighty shine pink.

Also, didn't you just say that Knuckles' jump height was evidence that Super Knuckles wasn't as powerful as Super Sonic? Super Mighty has an increased jump height, so by your logic, Super Mighty would be more powerful than Super Knuckles.
 
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Sorry to hop in unnanounced, but should the topic of super forms be brought up elsewhere instead of here, before you fill up multiple pages with it?
 
Super Knuckles is the only character not to get enhanced jump height when Super, and that is by design. Knuckles' weak jump is the only thing keeping him from taking Sonic's path. That's all it is about. The developers just wanted to keep Knuckles to Knuckles' paths.
Regardless of the balancing reason for it, it's still a stat that he doesn't increase. They easily could have blocked off Sonic's path while the player is Knuckles by limiting them to obstacles that require the instashield or something, and merely not have that show up if the pathway is intended for Tails and the player is using them. Alternatively, they could have merely allowed it as a non-canon reward for getting all the emeralds and 50 rings But they opted for not increasing Knuckles jump height instead. That is a very specific design choice for the character, and I wouldn't be so quick to just dismiss it.

I think you're reading too much into this. Knuckles glows brighter because he's a brighter shade of red than Mighty is. Knuckles' base form is practically pink in Mania already. The pattern shown to us in S3&K, Mania, and other games where characters other than Sonic can go Super, is that hedgehogs glow yellow and everyone else glows a brighter shade of their original color. Tails and Ray shine yellow, Knuckles and Mighty shine pink.

Also, didn't you just say that Knuckles' jump height was evidence that Super Knuckles wasn't as powerful as Super Sonic? Super Mighty has an increased jump height, so by your logic, Super Mighty would be more powerful than Super Knuckles.

Knuckles and Mighty aren't that different in base form in regards to color. Mighty flashes bright red, Knuckles goes full luminous pink. There really shouldn't be such a massive difference if it's merely just their base colors glowing a little, especially since there are shades of red they could have transitioned to instead to still achieve the glow effect. It's clear the pink is very intentional for Knuckles.

As for your second point, my point was that Knuckles appears to be deliberately holding back as though his transformation is a more controlled one. That extra control over the transformation could allow him to, for example, enhance his strength so he can climb faster and increase his forward momentum without overdoing it to the point he launches into orbit every time he jumps. Knuckles is the emerald guardian, so it makes sense he could do something like that while Sonic and the others can't. Mighty on the other hand almost certainly doesn't have that kind of expertise regarding super transformations, so his is less of a controlled form and more of an incomplete form. The reduced power output for characters such as him and Ray causes them to somewhat glow like Knuckles, but not as brightly and much less by choice. They gain advanced jump heights, but Mighty doesn't gain any other flight-like benefits and Ray could already glide-fly on account of being a flying squirrel.

The real mystery here is why Sonic, Shadow, and Silver have such incredibly powerful Super forms. In Shadow's case it could be because of being the ULF, but that doesn't really do anything to explain Sonic and Silver.

Sorry to hop in unnanounced, but should the topic of super forms be brought up elsewhere instead of here, before you fill up multiple pages with it?
Nah, I think I've made all the points I can to be honest. If anyone else wants to go make the topic to discuss, that's fine. I don't really think I can chime in much further without it devolving into a complete argument about conflicting headcanons though, so I think I'm about finished.
 
Slight M.Knuckles tweak

As i LOVE Sonic R and Metal Knuckles, him being in my top 5 characters, i'm so glad to see him here and at full potential and reimagined
But, would it be possible for you to make a way to climb to wall normally and maybe activate the boost after?

If not i'll still continue to play the life out of it and i thank you for your amazing work


And nothing needed, but possibly add a way to glide normal and Both hover over liquids (Similar to the old Tails Doll mod)?
 
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Really enjoying this so far, but I wish we could get an update to fix some of the problems with MK people have mentioned before, and maybe some fixes to Tails Doll. He seems to make the game resynch an awful lot.
 
So after doing a run as Tails Doll, I can conclude that he's the absolute dumbest non-meme character I've ever played. So y'know, I had a lotta fun with him.
I actually crashed the game at the end. I charged at Brak while he was using his flamethrower, threw my barrier up and then promptly got a sigsegv. Which honestly, is the most fitting way that run could have ended. Tails Doll too stronk.
I don't think I've ever laughed this much playing SRB2. Still have yet to try Metal Knux, but if he's even half as fun as Tails Doll, it should be a blast.
 
I really like how we have two tails dolls now, and both of them are great and separate from each other, I love how someone can really make that character their own.
But moving on to more about the character, I really like how wiggly you made tails doll, very fitting even his death animation is quality, the hiver jump threw me off for a bit but I was able adjust, it felt a little slow and clunky but once you gain speed it works really well, and his barrier is really neat concept and cool reference to metal sonic, it's so powerful and I think this move really ties this character together, it's a simple moveset but it works so well and surprising very effective once you get used to it, Tail's doll is just such a joy to play.
Metal knuckles was one I was waiting to see for awhile, and we did have one, but I wanted to see what a someone else's take on the character would be like, and I'm not disappointed, he feels like what a official Metal Knuckles would play like, all the same abilities as Knuckles, but more advanced with jet boosting and wall dashing instead of just climbing, a perfect rival of Knuckles capabilities.
Only thing I noticed that seemed off was Metal Knux having no wait or animation when near a ledge, nothing glaring just a little odd when you notice that. If I could make a suggestion for a idle animations maybe go with Metal Knux doing his own version of chuckling, like waving his "hand" around and just looking generally mockingly.
I only say this as a suggestion, I don't mind if he does or doesn't have one, the character is still really fun and that's what counts, and all the effort put in this is appreciated! Keep up the good work.
Oh and one more thing about supers maybe for Metal Knuckles instead of the quakes Super Knuckles has you could make the glide boost once fully charged can be canceled into another fully charged boost, so it can be used two times in succession?
Probably sound like a broken record but my intent is not to force someone to go with my ideas or pressure anyone, I just get excited and I too want to make characters one day, if I get the time to, this stuff just gets the juices flowing for my own takes on how a character could potentially work.
 
So I decided to wing it with Tails Doll and Metal Knuckles in search of any bugs or issues I came across for both characters.

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For Tails Doll, I think Floaty Jump should immediately transition into Slow Fall if you keep the jump button/key held down as Floaty Jump reaches its peak, and if Tails Doll has the Whirlwind Shield, he can activate the shield's power if he attempts a midair jump coming off of a ledge that then goes into Slow Fall.

Tails Doll with the elemental shield could leave behind a thin trail of fire with the Polygon Barrier, but this is more something minor since it only has its use in multiplayer.

Metal Knuckles is a bit harder to describe what I'd like to see changed about him but I'll try to keep it brief.

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If Metal Knuckles faces a wall and you press Jump in mid air, you could latch onto it automatically and get to charging a dash up it. If you face a wall while "sliding" in mid air charging up a Charge Glide, it should also latch you on.

Jumping/dropping off a wall could be changed to be more consistent with Knuckles- pressing Jump to latch off of a wall moves the camera away from the wall and jumps you slightly further than a straight drop (or just moves the camera without the slight jump boost) while Spin is the drop that doesn't change the camera.

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Metal Knuckles' spin jump off a wall doesn't damage enemies and he takes damage on contact.
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