How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

[rocklight124]

Ar

The problem primarily isn't that Sonic having more upward verticality would make other characters redundant (though it somewhat would), it's that other characters already provide ample upward verticality, so giving it to Sonic is totally unnecessary and redundant and takes away from the entire point to him.

Sonic's uniqueness comes from his lack of needing upward verticality as a double jump ability, and such upward verticality only serves to slow him down. Going uphill is always going to be slower than going downhill, and excessive verticality primarily serves the purpose of skipping level design rather than enhancing it. This is why Sonic is generally designed in the official titles as the default experience, with everyone else being alternative playstyles more designed for players who have either already beaten the game or don't care about experiencing the levels properly.

Also, as I've already explained several times now, Sonic does have upwards verticality, he just has to work for it a little harder than everyone else. Simply pressing jump twice isn't going to give it to him, nor should it.

I never said "Sonic is uniquely horizontal", I said he has to earn his verticality. Wall jumping is exclusively something that Modern Sonic has and generally exists as a more fun replacement for and equivalent to platforming sections that would otherwise just have Sonic jumping up several platforms slowly or riding up a slowly moving platform. Both methods of gaining height serve the same purpose of slowing the player down, and often come just before another section that provides the opportunity to go fast. Generally speaking, when Sonic is truly given the opportunity to gain some height, it requires him to have built up some speed first to make use of in achieving it.

The title character being the default experience is good game design. SRB2's stages are divided into two types of pathway; the main path and side paths. That's not changing, nor does it have any reason to change. Sonic's pathway being designed as the main pathway that most of the other characters can also follow if they choose to is a big chunk of the reason why the levels are fun. Sonic's role in the game is to provide a baseline experience that actually has to interact with the level design as intended to progress on a first time playthrough, while everyone else is given tools in their moveset they can use to simply skip sections of the level design through their boosted verticality. If you give every single character tools to easily skip the level design, your platforming game quickly starts to defeat its own purpose.

That's not to say that Sonic doesn't or shouldn't also have tools to skip. Again, it's simply more difficult for him. His moveset requires skill to perform skips, instead of simply pressing jump twice. He's easy to play, hard to master. This low skill floor high skill ceiling playstyle is what makes Sonic simultaneously accessible and engaging. By giving him unnecessary verticality, you risk trivializing the very thing that should be tricky and precise and lowering the skill ceiling in the process. Worse, you risk compromising the very thing that makes Sonic games fun to begin with, which is the rush you get from earning your speed. Worse still, to focus too heavily on upward verticality is to stray dangerously close to needing slow, tedious, uphill level design that doesn't give Sonic an opportunity to go fast just to make it harder to skip the level design to begin with. You will notice this with the other character exclusive pathways; they are not designed around speed, but rather around mobility. Now imagine that but it's the entire game.

That's not to say that SRB2 needs to be completely restrained by what the mainline series is, but if changes are going to be made to the formula they should be made for good reason and take care not to conflict with what makes it a Sonic game to begin with. If the whole point starts to become to not be like other Sonic games and to get away from them, you're not only going to alienate many of the longtime players but are going to get to the point where you might as well reskin everything to be original instead of being a Sonic fangame, and I honestly doubt that doing so is even remotely STJR's intention.

Agree to disagree... respectfully.

 

[glaber]

I still say the best way to make sonic more vertical is to give him a stronger jump. In fact, give all 6 base game characters a stronger jump that way we could have custom levels with better balance between vertical and horizontal platforming instead of the vertical platforming being smushed.

That's not quite true. As I mentioned here:

Upwards verticality doesn't have to come from jumping, this is a Sonic game we are talking about. All the way back to the series roots, Sonic's most powerful upwards verticality tool has always been his speedy interactions with curved terrain.

Wait until you see my OLDC Level, High Jump Hijinx. That one will have both a required higher jump (allowed via golden double jump monitors) and quarter pipe jumps.

 

[phantomlimb]

Do you expect new players to immediately get the hang of the thok? The main critique is that it's too punishing and not beginner-friendly, which doesn't make the move reliable for newcomers - while it depends on the player, it generally takes too long to get the hang of thokking because the game doesn't teach you it in the right way. While the game's tutorial does give you a basic runthrough of the thok, the testing area for it is way too small for something that launches you so far and afaik there are zero techniques the level design uses to help new players grasp the thok (such as silent tutorials like time gear mentioned). I love the thok but there are a ton of ways that it (and the "learning process" for it) could be better.

No, the players will not immediately get the hang of the thok. If we're going to talk about the thok being difficult to understand, let's talk about level design. Every single time i've booted up this game for friends to play it's taken them upwards of 15-20 or even 30 or above minutes to finish levels like Arid Canyon, Castle Eggman, etc. It's not even difficulty, they get lost so easily and they can't find their way around the map, constantly making loops, falling into pits (without using the thok, mind you), etc. Players will surely understand the thok by the time they understand how to traverse the levels. It comes with experience.

Both of these issues (the thok, level design) are issues that boil down to "This is a new game, i need to play it more to learn how to play it" rather than something that can be fixed by changing it. If the level design were to change, the levels would be boring. If the thok were to change, sonic would lose important tools he has to make the play experience unique. Sure, there's alternatives to the thok, but I feel that the thok is good for the purpose of being a simple and straightforward mechanic for the most simple and straightforward character in the game. It's a loose cannon of a move but Sonic's speed on its own should be enough to satiate players that can't handle the thok on their first playthrough.

 

[rocklight124]

No, the players will not immediately get the hang of the thok. If we're going to talk about the thok being difficult to understand, let's talk about level design. Every single time i've booted up this game for friends to play it's taken them upwards of 15-20 or even 30 or above minutes to finish levels like Arid Canyon, Castle Eggman, etc. It's not even difficulty, they get lost so easily and they can't find their way around the map, constantly making loops, falling into pits (without using the thok, mind you), etc. Players will surely understand the thok by the time they understand how to traverse the levels. It comes with experience.

Both of these issues (the thok, level design) are issues that boil down to "This is a new game, i need to play it more to learn how to play it" rather than something that can be fixed by changing it. If the level design were to change, the levels would be boring. If the thok were to change, sonic would lose important tools he has to make the play experience unique. Sure, there's alternatives to the thok, but I feel that the thok is good for the purpose of being a simple and straightforward mechanic for the most simple and straightforward character in the game. It's a loose cannon of a move but Sonic's speed on its own should be enough to satiate players that can't handle the thok on their first playthrough.

I partly agree, but I think the thok going is a given with momentum. Any changes that are needed to be made to the thok would not make it the thok anymore to be honest.

 

[_Astral]

No, the players will not immediately get the hang of the thok. If we're going to talk about the thok being difficult to understand, let's talk about level design. Every single time i've booted up this game for friends to play it's taken them upwards of 15-20 or even 30 or above minutes to finish levels like Arid Canyon, Castle Eggman, etc. It's not even difficulty, they get lost so easily and they can't find their way around the map, constantly making loops, falling into pits (without using the thok, mind you), etc. Players will surely understand the thok by the time they understand how to traverse the levels. It comes with experience.

Both of these issues (the thok, level design) are issues that boil down to "This is a new game, i need to play it more to learn how to play it" rather than something that can be fixed by changing it. If the level design were to change, the levels would be boring. If the thok were to change, sonic would lose important tools he has to make the play experience unique. Sure, there's alternatives to the thok, but I feel that the thok is good for the purpose of being a simple and straightforward mechanic for the most simple and straightforward character in the game. It's a loose cannon of a move but Sonic's speed on its own should be enough to satiate players that can't handle the thok on their first playthrough.

It's not that I want the level design to change like in the way you're suggesting, I just want the thok to be taught in a better way if it's not going to leave. While I still don't mind it staying for a little while longer, it specifically isn't needed to make Sonic a unique character that stands out because there're always ways to do that with potential alternatives (even if said alternatives aren't air dash-related abilities). I think players should be able to grasp the handling of Sonic's main ability like they can with the other characters. Even if the thok is "simple" and "straightforward" the teaching of it could be improved so that it's not so much of a hassle to get the hang of. Somewhat regarding this topic, I'd rather just agree to disagree than continue to argue. While I did put myself in this, I feel like it's better for me to stop trying to convince people/defend my stance on the topic because there are many people here who are already currently doing that.

 

[time gear]

If the level design were to change, the levels would be boring.

This snippet here I disagree with heavily. There's nothing about the current level design in SRB2 that makes it inherently the only possible level design that could be fun. Think about the Sonic Adventure games for example. Levels like Emerald Coast and Red Mountain are fun to traverse as Sonic in Adventure 1, and feature completely different level design mentality from any of Sonic's levels in Adventure 2. There's a huge shift in level design mentality between games, and both games are still very fun. The main stages in Unleashed and Generations are very different from the Open Zones in Frontiers, and yet both styles of level are also fun.

The key, as mentioned much earlier in this thread is balancing things out so that there's harmony between the character movesets and the level design. The two have to go hand in hand. If the characters are too mobile for the stage design, they will skip over everything and it will quickly become boring. If the stage design completely defeats the player's mobility then you end up with the opposite problem, progression becomes frustrating and tedious and some levels might not even be possible to complete at all. Making a change to one has to be properly reflected in the other, that's what makes any game fun.

I still say the best way to make sonic more vertical is to give him a stronger jump. In fact, give all 6 base game characters a stronger jump that way we could have custom levels with better balance between vertical and horizontal platforming instead of the vertical platforming being smushed.

Let's say for example that we went with Glaber's idea here of making every character's jump higher. As he's predicting, custom levels would start reflecting this change pretty quick, designing around the fact that now the entire game has had a significant shift in verticality. Already existing levels from before the change could very quickly become boring to play due to it being too easy for everyone to trivialize or skip platforming sections, which would likely make straight level ports unfun and demand any ongoing as of yet unreleased projects to either just release on their originally intended but now outdated build of SRB2 instead, or start over with the new character jump heights in mind.

This would apply to the vanilla stages too. Even they would need to be retooled to make ledges that are currently just slightly out of Sonic's reach higher so that they can continue serving their intended purpose of blocking his progression unless he finds another way to cross over or around them. The same logic applies to platforms meant to be slightly out of reach horizontally as well, except they would need to be made further instead of higher. This simple change of making the jump height higher for every character completely changes how you would have to go about placing everything in your levels.

 

[leah]

Odd that it took them over 2 decades to replace the thok, although personally I don't want it replaced, I've gotten very good with it and I'd prefer to have atleast an option to keep it for 2.3.

 

[glaber]

Let's say for example that we went with Glaber's idea here of making every character's jump higher. As he's predicting, custom levels would start reflecting this change pretty quick, designing around the fact that now the entire game has had a significant shift in verticality. Already existing levels from before the change could very quickly become boring to play due to it being too easy for everyone to trivialize or skip platforming sections, which would likely make straight level ports unfun and demand any ongoing as of yet unreleased projects to either just release on their originally intended but now outdated build of SRB2 instead, or start over with the new character jump heights in mind.

This would apply to the vanilla stages too. Even they would need to be retooled to make ledges that are currently just slightly out of Sonic's reach higher so that they can continue serving their intended purpose of blocking his progression unless he finds another way to cross over or around them. The same logic applies to platforms meant to be slightly out of reach horizontally as well, except they would need to be made further instead of higher. This simple change of making the jump height higher for every character completely changes how you would have to go about placing everything in your levels.

I thought about that and anticipated this very argument. I'm already working on adaped levels that need adjustments just for still limiting Knuckles. So we can put this argument to the test once ready.


I should mention that I already play with stronger jumping versions of the base 6. Just need a level or more to go with them so I can release them.

 

[phantomlimb]

This snippet here I disagree with heavily. There's nothing about the current level design in SRB2 that makes it inherently the only possible level design that could be fun.

What I meant was that the issue with the level design is that it's confusing for new players, and if we wanted to make it less confusing, the most straightforward way to do that is make there little to no room for error, removing secret areas, making the levels incredibly linear. That would be boring to me. Sure, you're right, SA1 and SA2 have very linear level designs but I don't play SRB2 for that. Just like how I like the thok and the overall gameplay of this game. STJR carved out a very unique playing sonic game and I think they did it perfectly. making a wild change to the way that Sonic plays is just not needed whatosever. You already struck gold.

Post automatically merged: Aug 2, 2023

It's not that I want the level design to change like in the way you're suggesting

I didn't suggest that. That was just a digression on my part for the sake of explaining why the thok doesn't need to be changed. Point was if we're going to be like "The thok is bad for new players!" then we need to focus on the big picture which is there's a lot of things in this game that are difficult for new players

 

[time gear]

What I meant was that the issue with the level design is that it's confusing for new players, and if we wanted to make it less confusing, the most straightforward way to do that is make there little to no room for error, removing secret areas, making the levels incredibly linear. That would be boring to me. Sure, you're right, SA1 and SA2 have very linear level designs but I don't play SRB2 for that. Just like how I like the thok and the overall gameplay of this game. STJR carved out a very unique playing sonic game and I think they did it perfectly. making a wild change to the way that Sonic plays is just not needed whatosever. You already struck gold.

There's more than one way to do open ended level design with hidden away secrets that don't cause the player to become lost and confused. There's nothing about SRB2's level design that makes it impossible to improve on without making it more linear.

That being said, linearity doesn't have to be a bad thing either, it's just a matter of how strict the linearity is and how well of a fit it is for the game it's implemented into.

 

[_Astral]

I didn't suggest that. That was just a digression on my part for the sake of explaining why the thok doesn't need to be changed. Point was if we're going to be like "The thok is bad for new players!" then we need to focus on the big picture which is there's a lot of things in this game that are difficult for new players

My bad, should've read your other post more thoroughly.

 

[Spunch T. S. Koopa]

personally I think the thok should be kept as it has a stupidly high skill ceiling
and if it were to be replaced at least keep it as SOME SORT of airdash
but I'd keep the thok (more natural evolution to Adventure, ya play me ?)

 

[rosie the racoon]

the i played with the new move (sort of) and it's unintuitive and clunky
the thok just works
if you are too bad to play as sonic play as tails or knuckles they are better for beginners especially tails

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

the i played with the new move (sort of) and it's unintuitive and clunky
the thok just works
if you are too bad to play as sonic play as tails or knuckles they are better for beginners especially tails

1. Does sort of mean you played a fan made recreation of the ability, because if so you can't really argue against it on the grounds of it's implementation. 2. Since when was knuckles, with his lower jump and more difficult patches, better for beginners? 3. The ability in question isn't even the only, or main, contender for the Thok's replacement. 4. The problem is the thok doesn't work. It's throws off balance in all competitive multiplayer modes, and if every single new player has trouble using it then it's likely not a question of skill. And you're calling the new ability unintuitive. The thok is a platforming move that isn't designed to be used in a platforming scenario

 

[TrailBlazer]

If the thok gets replaced, I wouldn't mind TOO much. I like the thok and how you can use it creatively to reach higher places that you wouldn't be able to get to otherwise, but I do have gripes with how it allows Sonic to just.... ignore the level and enemies because you zoom past pretty much everything until you get to a platform too tall to jump over or a gap too big to thok across so NOW you have to respect the level design.

I also hate how you can only maintain the speed of thok by frame-perfect jumping off the ground over and over when the game could just allow you to maintain your run speed on the ground. 2.2's level design HEAVILY banks on showing off slopes and how you can roll down and gain speed but still keeps a ground speed cap making anyone that can't roll or doesn't have cool movement abilities/speed preservation of their own miserable to play as.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

If the thok gets replaced, I wouldn't mind TOO much. I like the thok and how you can use it creatively to reach higher places that you wouldn't be able to get to otherwise, but I do have gripes with how it allows Sonic to just.... ignore the level and enemies because you zoom past pretty much everything until you get to a platform too tall to jump over or a gap too big to thok across so NOW you have to respect the level design.

I also hate how you can only maintain the speed of thok by frame-perfect jumping off the ground over and over when the game could just allow you to maintain your run speed on the ground. 2.2's level design HEAVILY banks on showing off slopes and how you can roll down and gain speed but still keeps a ground speed cap making anyone that can't roll or doesn't have cool movement abilities/speed preservation of their own miserable to play as.

.... everyone can ignore enemies lmao

 

[time gear]

The thok is a platforming move that isn't designed to be used in a platforming scenario

That's not true. While in SRB2's current vanilla level design it has a tendency to punish those who use it recklessly, that's not an issue inherent to the thok itself but to the style of level design it is being placed in. For instance, in GFZ1 there's an entire water section roughly around the middlepoint of the stage that most players simply skip by crossing the bridge. However, for those who choose to explore that area as Sonic the thok is a handy tool for crossing the gaps above the water, and the only punishment for falling down is having to navigate your way up out of the water and try again.

This is a relic of the stage design going back to before SRB2 started leaning so heavily into using stage hazards to punish the player for messing up their platforming, and likely only survived due to the fact that GFZ1 is the first level and as such is meant to exist as a sort of safe playground area for the player to get used to how the game feels to play and how their chosen character controls. The upper sections of the intro area in GFZ2 are also filled with hazardless gaps for the player to experiment around with the thok in provided they can find a way up there to begin with, an area that was also a particularly prominent staple of the Final Demo version of the stage.

This, I think, is SRB2's level design at its best. Even while exploring you are encouraged to go fast without fear of being too severely punished if your platforming isn't on point. While I'm not outright against the implementation of stage hazards, especially in later stages, I do feel like SRB2's level design has a tendency of overusing them to its own detriment, and this is the primary reason why the thok has become so punishing and controversial in recent SRB2 history. The thok is a tool that is actually really good for platforming, speed, and exploration, making it a sort of jack of all trades type move. However it's not designed for use in such risky, precise level design as in the likes of Castle Eggman and Arid Canyon, and so newer players who have been using it as their primary means of crossing gaps and gaining speed up to that point are suddenly going to be being taught by the level design that using it for either platforming or attacking is bad and therefore not to use it.

and if every single new player has trouble using it then it's likely not a question of skill.

Actually, this suggests the opposite. If every single new player has trouble using it, then this suggests that the skill floor for the ability is too high within the level design for new players to be able to make effective use of. Once again, I don't see this as an issue with the thok itself as an inherent property of it, but rather a clash between what the move does and the level design it is being placed in. The thok strives in larger open ended areas that promote freedom to explore at your own pace, whether that be fast or slow. SRB2's level design after GFZ increasingly goes against this entire notion, punishing the player for going too fast and being too reckless in a game about a reckless speedy hedgehog.

That's not to say that slower platforming sections shouldn't exist, but there should be ways for Sonic to either take an alternative route or use his speed to his advantage to find clever ways to skip through them as an alternative form of progression. That is to say, whenever there's a possibility for the thok to result in player death, it should also be just as possible for it to result in successful navigation based on how the player chooses to use it if you want there to be moveset harmony and for the move to actually be serving a practical purpose. When the level is designed in such a way as to have large spans in which using the title character's signature ability is an outright hazard with little to no practical upside, that's when people start to feel like the ability itself is bad.

 

[Sls64LGamingBro]

The thok wasn't really supposed to be in this theard in the first place, It's just a ability. What's even the point of talking about a ability, this is useless after all. Infact, none of this wouldn't have happend. If the thok was explain by anyone for once, we also have no idea who explain and hated this so much (If it's discord) in the first place. We all know that it's being removed by the team and making a new one for players who had a hard time with it, because that's what they are doing.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

The thok wasn't really supposed to be in this theard in the first place, It's just a ability. What's even the point of talking about a ability, this is useless after all. Infact, none of this wouldn't have happend. If the thok was explain by anyone for once, we also have no idea who explain and hated this so much (If it's discord) in the first place. We all know that it's being removed by the team and making a new one for players who had a hard time with it, because that's what they are doing.

If they actually made a good compromise, then I would be fine with the thok being removed. That is not the case

 

[Sls64LGamingBro]

If they actually made a good compromise, then I would be fine with the thok being removed. That is not the case

I kinda truly would say, add in a menu to change it, or just completely use it for sonic ability menu in the player skin changing thingy in multiplayer.