How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

[_Astral]

The thok is a problem? This is the first time I'm hearing about it. If the thok is hard for new players to understand then maybe the new players are not smart.

Do you expect new players to immediately get the hang of the thok? The main critique is that it's too punishing and not beginner-friendly, which doesn't make the move reliable for newcomers - while it depends on the player, it generally takes too long to get the hang of thokking because the game doesn't teach you it in the right way. While the game's tutorial does give you a basic runthrough of the thok, the testing area for it is way too small for something that launches you so far and afaik there are zero techniques the level design uses to help new players grasp the thok (such as silent tutorials like time gear mentioned). I love the thok but there are a ton of ways that it (and the "learning process" for it) could be better.

 

[phantomlimb]

Do you expect new players to immediately get the hang of the thok? The main critique is that it's too punishing and not beginner-friendly, which doesn't make the move reliable for newcomers - while it depends on the player, it takes too long to get the hang of thokking because the game doesn't teach you it in the right way. While the game's tutorial does give you a basic runthrough of the thok, the testing area for it is way too small for something that launches you so far and afaik there are zero techniques the level design uses to help new players grasp the thok (such as silent tutorials like time gear mentioned). I love the thok but there are a ton of ways it could be better.

So just don't use it? It's a genesis inspired 3D platformer, you didn't have the thok in Sonic 1, 2, or 3

 

[_Astral]

So just don't use it? It's a genesis inspired 3D platformer, you didn't have the thok in Sonic 1, 2, or 3

atp That's just gatekeeping an ability (which is Sonic's main one - that's basically the appeal of him). Not only would you not be teaching the player anything, that idea would also just make the experience more boring; the only other ability he has is spindashing and you have to stop completely to use it. If we go along with your idea then what would Sonic do that others can't?

 

[time gear]

So just don't use it? It's a genesis inspired 3D platformer, you didn't have the thok in Sonic 1, 2, or 3

atp That's just gatekeeping an ability (which is Sonic's main one - that's basically the appeal of him). Not only would you not be teaching the player anything, that idea would also just make the experience more boring; the only other ability he has is spindashing and you have to stop completely to use it. If we go along with your idea then what would Sonic do that others can't?

You're both kind of right. I've brought it up in this thread before, but the Genesis/Mega Drive games never gave Sonic a double jump ability that he outright needed to use to progress through the levels. You can reach the end goal sign without even using the spindash in most stages, boiling it down to making the most out of your run, jump, and spin abilities. However, that doesn't mean that Insta-Shield and Drop Dash don't have usefulness to them that come in handy in certain contexts.

The difference between, say, the drop dash and the thok is that the thok often propels Sonic into stage hazards when a new player is behind the wheel. I see this as more of an issue with level design than with the thok itself, but the perception that has been generated is that the thok is not beginner friendly. While it's true that Sonic should have a double jump ability that is fun to use and generally harmless, right now the perception around the thok is that it isn't that. It should also be something that, like the thok, gives Sonic an edge against the competition when it comes to getting to the goal sign faster. Speed and beginner friendliness is a difficult thing to balance together, which is probably why there still isn't anything concrete for them to confirm they're replacing Sonic's ability with. They need to somehow balance out bursts of speed with ease of control without making the character outright overpowered. Otherwise, Sonic ends up being one of the slower characters in his own game.

This is where the argument around verticality comes in. The reason why Tails dominates in so many SRB2 stages from across time is because of a tendency to build the levels in a more uphill way than the classic games did. Tails and Knuckles can fly and climb, so they can bypass a lot of the upwards verticality that Sonic needs to find another way around. The leading proposition seems to be to give Sonic an ability that gives him just enough upwards verticality to be able to skip over these uphill terrain sections like Tails and Knuckles, removing their advantage and restoring Sonic's dominance with faster clear times. However, such an ability wouldn't be truly fast, but would simply be working around a flawed level design mentality given the gameplay style the series is built around.

Instead, I feel like a better compromise would be to make Sonic's double jump ability something that assists him with downward verticality. Something similar to the drop dash or stomp with which the player is rewarded for using in conjunction with downward slopes by receiving bursts of speed. This would then indirectly assist with upward verticality the correct way; by giving Sonic the necessary speed and momentum to launch off ramps and gain great height from it. Skillful nuance would come from launching off multiple ramps and each time landing on another downward slope, increasing your speed each time and therefore increasing the launch height. Basically, imagine the bounce from SA2 but instead of bouncing when landing on the ground, you release a spindash that gains more speed the higher you dropped from and the more downward inclined the slope you landed on was. On paper, this should give Sonic a good balance of speed and control for beginners, and make his speed context sensitive enough as to not be overpowered. Best of all, more skilled players could make better use out of the ability to reach higher up places, granting access to hidden goodies and hard to reach shortcuts.

 

[glaber]

So just don't use it? It's a genesis inspired 3D platformer, you didn't have the thok in Sonic 1, 2, or 3

It was never purly genesis inspired as Sonic Adventure influenced it too.


That said, if thok must be replaced, general consensus seems to be with the rebound dash.

But if you really want more vertically, you need a bigger jump strength too. There is no getting around this even with double jump.

 

[ReverandToast_]

 

[time gear]

But if you really want more vertically, you need a bigger jump strength too. There is no getting around this even with double jump.

That's not quite true. As I mentioned here:

Instead, I feel like a better compromise would be to make Sonic's double jump ability something that assists him with downward verticality. Something similar to the drop dash or stomp with which the player is rewarded for using in conjunction with downward slopes by receiving bursts of speed. This would then indirectly assist with upward verticality the correct way; by giving Sonic the necessary speed and momentum to launch off ramps and gain great height from it. Skillful nuance would come from launching off multiple ramps and each time landing on another downward slope, increasing your speed each time and therefore increasing the launch height. Basically, imagine the bounce from SA2 but instead of bouncing when landing on the ground, you release a spindash that gains more speed the higher you dropped from and the more downward inclined the slope you landed on was. On paper, this should give Sonic a good balance of speed and control for beginners, and make his speed context sensitive enough as to not be overpowered. Best of all, more skilled players could make better use out of the ability to reach higher up places, granting access to hidden goodies and hard to reach shortcuts.

Upwards verticality doesn't have to come from jumping, this is a Sonic game we are talking about. All the way back to the series roots, Sonic's most powerful upwards verticality tool has always been his speedy interactions with curved terrain.

Upwards verticality is something that every single other has, and is distinctly something that doesn't really fit the gameplay trope that Sonic himself fits into, at least without making use of things like springs, or homing chains in the Adventure games and later. Upwards verticality is what the other characters are for, it's why you pick them over Sonic.

Additionally, as I explained here, upwards verticality is literally the reason why you pick any of the other characters. Tails can fly, Knuckles can climb, Amy can jump higher and attack springs to launch higher/further, Fang has his bounce, and Metal can hover across large pits. They all have readily available ways to take to the sky and reach heights that Sonic doesn't have, because they're the alternative playstyles. Give Sonic an upwards vertical jump ability or increase jump height and now you might as well have him as the only playable character, because all the nuance that makes everyone else special is also now inferior to Sonic's combination of speed and verticality.

Sonic himself isn't about vertical movement, he's about horizontal movement. For him by design any jumping verticality other than downward is slow and even downward verticality only serves to transition into horizontal speed. For Classic Sonic, you fall down a long way, spin on a downward slope, and go zooming off at high speeds. For Modern Sonic, you stomp and then boost. To give Sonic a double jump power that puts his upwards verticality more on par with Tails and Knuckles or even Amy is to miss the point of his playstyle and why you would ever pick them over him to begin with. Sonic speeds along the main path at breakneck pace with any height he gains being from ramp launches and badnik/monitor/spring bounces. Height is his reward for going fast to begin with. His friends can keep up by taking shortcuts he can't reach/access despite not moving as fast.

 

[Kix_Fantasma]

I don't like the decision tbh

 

[AmazingEric23]

That's not quite true. As I mentioned here:

Upwards verticality doesn't have to come from jumping, this is a Sonic game we are talking about. All the way back to the series roots, Sonic's most powerful upwards verticality tool has always been his speedy interactions with curved terrain.


Additionally, as I explained here, upwards verticality is literally the reason why you pick any of the other characters. Tails can fly, Knuckles can climb, Amy can jump higher and attack springs to launch higher/further, Fang has his bounce, and Metal can hover across large pits. They all have readily available ways to take to the sky and reach heights that Sonic doesn't have, because they're the alternative playstyles. Give Sonic an upwards vertical jump ability or increase jump height and now you might as well have him as the only playable character, because all the nuance that makes everyone else special is also now inferior to Sonic's combination of speed and verticality.

Sonic himself isn't about vertical movement, he's about horizontal movement. For him by design any jumping verticality other than downward is slow and even downward verticality only serves to transition into horizontal speed. For Classic Sonic, you fall down a long way, spin on a downward slope, and go zooming off at high speeds. For Modern Sonic, you stomp and then boost. To give Sonic a double jump power that puts his upwards verticality more on par with Tails and Knuckles or even Amy is to miss the point of his playstyle and why you would ever pick them over him to begin with. Sonic speeds along the main path at breakneck pace with any height he gains being from ramp launches and badnik/monitor/spring bounces. Height is his reward for going fast to begin with. His friends can keep up by taking shortcuts he can't reach/access despite not moving as fast.

Ok then, if their too slow to keep up with sonic; just make the other characters faster...

Post automatically merged: Jul 29, 2023

That's not quite true. As I mentioned here:

Upwards verticality doesn't have to come from jumping, this is a Sonic game we are talking about. All the way back to the series roots, Sonic's most powerful upwards verticality tool has always been his speedy interactions with curved terrain.


Additionally, as I explained here, upwards verticality is literally the reason why you pick any of the other characters. Tails can fly, Knuckles can climb, Amy can jump higher and attack springs to launch higher/further, Fang has his bounce, and Metal can hover across large pits. They all have readily available ways to take to the sky and reach heights that Sonic doesn't have, because they're the alternative playstyles. Give Sonic an upwards vertical jump ability or increase jump height and now you might as well have him as the only playable character, because all the nuance that makes everyone else special is also now inferior to Sonic's combination of speed and verticality.

Sonic himself isn't about vertical movement, he's about horizontal movement. For him by design any jumping verticality other than downward is slow and even downward verticality only serves to transition into horizontal speed. For Classic Sonic, you fall down a long way, spin on a downward slope, and go zooming off at high speeds. For Modern Sonic, you stomp and then boost. To give Sonic a double jump power that puts his upwards verticality more on par with Tails and Knuckles or even Amy is to miss the point of his playstyle and why you would ever pick them over him to begin with. Sonic speeds along the main path at breakneck pace with any height he gains being from ramp launches and badnik/monitor/spring bounces. Height is his reward for going fast to begin with. His friends can keep up by taking shortcuts he can't reach/access despite not moving as fast.

Wait, ignore that last one, if the only options are horizontal/vertical speed. Why are there more than 2 characters?

 

[time gear]

Wait, ignore that last one, if the only options are horizontal/vertical speed. Why are there more than 2 characters?

It's nowhere even remotely that simple. There's three different kinds of mobility; Upwards vertical, downwards vertical, and horizontal. Amongst these three, there's a myriad of different methods of traversal, some of which each character specializes in.

Tails: Upward Vertical via timed flight with decent horizontal coverage in general.
Knuckles: Horizontal air via descending glide with decent upward vertical coverage by climbing.
Amy: Upward Vertical via high jump and hammering springs with poor ground coverage but decent air coverage.
Metal: Horizontal air via unlimited hover with decent ground coverage and very limited upward vertical coverage.
Fang: Upward and Downward Vertical coverage with balanced ground and air coverage.

Sonic is special in that his jump ability is the only one that doesn't provide any upwards vertical coverage at all, and even in the official games in which he has a double jump they recognize this fact about the character enough to make the double jump fairly weak and function more as a momentum correctional tool than anything really all that useful for gaining height. Its use is for slowing Sonic down from fast speeds to land on a close platform, or to speed him up if he wasn't going fast enough to land on a further away platform.

This is because Sonic's a character designed to travel along the terrain by default, and to only skip over it as a reward for obtaining the necessary speed to perform a launch. Other characters are alternative playstyles, so they are given more leeway to perform skips without having to put in effort for it. You can think of it as Sonic being the default, intended experience. The player is expected to actually experience the level design as him, and being able to skip it is a reward for learning how to use the tools you are are given combined with stage memorization to perform advanced maneuvers. The other characters are more intended for repeat playthroughs, and so there's less of a need for you to actually do the platforming in the platform game and are a way to experience the levels differently through alternative pathways or just easily skipping across the main path in ways Sonic can't.

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

It's nowhere even remotely that simple. There's three different kinds of mobility; Upwards vertical, downwards vertical, and horizontal. Amongst these three, there's a myriad of different methods of traversal, some of which each character specializes in.

Tails: Upward Vertical via timed flight with decent horizontal coverage in general.
Knuckles: Horizontal air via descending glide with decent upward vertical coverage by climbing.
Amy: Upward Vertical via high jump and hammering springs with poor ground coverage but decent air coverage.
Metal: Horizontal air via unlimited hover with decent ground coverage and very limited upward vertical coverage.
Fang: Upward and Downward Vertical coverage with balanced ground and air coverage.

Sonic is special in that his jump ability is the only one that doesn't provide any upwards vertical coverage at all, and even in the official games in which he has a double jump they recognize this fact about the character enough to make the double jump fairly weak and function more as a momentum correctional tool than anything really all that useful for gaining height. Its use is for slowing Sonic down from fast speeds to land on a close platform, or to speed him up if he wasn't going fast enough to land on a further away platform.

This is because Sonic's a character designed to travel along the terrain by default, and to only skip over it as a reward for obtaining the necessary speed to perform a launch. Other characters are alternative playstyles, so they are given more leeway to perform skips without having to put in effort for it. You can think of it as Sonic being the default, intended experience. The player is expected to actually experience the level design as him, and being able to skip it is a reward for learning how to use the tools you are are given combined with stage memorization to perform advanced maneuvers. The other characters are more intended for repeat playthroughs, and so there's less of a need for you to actually do the platforming in the platform game and are a way to experience the levels differently through alternative pathways or just easily skipping across the main path in ways Sonic can't.

First of all, if there's a reason to pick knuckles over tails or tails over knuckles, then it stands to reason that the same would be true if sonic had vertical mobility. Second of all, the whole "sonic is uniquely horizontal in every sonic game" thing isn't even true, as sonic often has a wall jump in boost games, which is effectively just what the rebound dash adds.

 

[phantomlimb]

Honestly my take with it is there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. New players will try to use the thok and like many people say, they'll struggle with it at first but that'll just teach them "Okay, that's something I don't know how to use. I'll not use it for now and get used to the controls, but later I will learn to use it and master it"

Post automatically merged: Jul 29, 2023

It was never purly genesis inspired as Sonic Adventure influenced it too.


That said, if thok must be replaced, general consensus seems to be with the rebound dash.

But if you really want more vertically, you need a bigger jump strength too. There is no getting around this even with double jump.

Okay, if you bring up Sonic Adventure influencing SRB2, is it really that difficult for players to understand in SA1&2 how to gain speed with the homing attack by using it as an air dash when there's no enemies in front of you? It's the same concept in SRB2 except you can use it whenever.



I feel like all of this is underestimating the intelligence of new players. I forgot what the word is for it, but new players are not dumb enough to understand the concept of the thok. Give them some credit.

 

[Endermanch69]

His friends can keep up by taking shortcuts he can't reach/access despite not moving as fast.

I dislike the fact that 2.2 changed the other chars normalspeed to 36 because it gives Sonic less of an advantage on the ground, which is supposed to be a reason of why you would play sonic over the other chars

 

[SonicHacker141]

what's the point of tails, knux, amy, and fang if sonic will be able to do the same thing? that'll just lose the point of all 4 of those characters, and possibly even making people not care if they even existed. if it's like that then just remove them if sonic has those abilities, or atleast make tails or knuckles unlockables as well.

 

[AmazingEric23]

It's nowhere even remotely that simple. There's three different kinds of mobility; Upwards vertical, downwards vertical, and horizontal. Amongst these three, there's a myriad of different methods of traversal, some of which each character specializes in.

Tails: Upward Vertical via timed flight with decent horizontal coverage in general.
Knuckles: Horizontal air via descending glide with decent upward vertical coverage by climbing.
Amy: Upward Vertical via high jump and hammering springs with poor ground coverage but decent air coverage.
Metal: Horizontal air via unlimited hover with decent ground coverage and very limited upward vertical coverage.
Fang: Upward and Downward Vertical coverage with balanced ground and air coverage.

Sonic is special in that his jump ability is the only one that doesn't provide any upwards vertical coverage at all, and even in the official games in which he has a double jump they recognize this fact about the character enough to make the double jump fairly weak and function more as a momentum correctional tool than anything really all that useful for gaining height. Its use is for slowing Sonic down from fast speeds to land on a close platform, or to speed him up if he wasn't going fast enough to land on a further away platform.

This is because Sonic's a character designed to travel along the terrain by default, and to only skip over it as a reward for obtaining the necessary speed to perform a launch. Other characters are alternative playstyles, so they are given more leeway to perform skips without having to put in effort for it. You can think of it as Sonic being the default, intended experience. The player is expected to actually experience the level design as him, and being able to skip it is a reward for learning how to use the tools you are are given combined with stage memorization to perform advanced maneuvers. The other characters are more intended for repeat playthroughs, and so there's less of a need for you to actually do the platforming in the platform game and are a way to experience the levels differently through alternative pathways or just easily skipping across the main path in ways Sonic can't

From what I understand, SRB2 isn't trying to replacate the other games beat for beat and the level design reflects this. These levels aren't that of your everyday 2d side scroller. And there is more of an emphasis on verticality, so it stands to reason that Sonic's moveset would reflect this, think of levels like ACZ1 or GFZ2 for examples.

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

what's the point of tails, knux, amy, and fang if sonic will be able to do the same thing? that'll just lose the point of all 4 of those characters, and possibly even making people not care if they even existed. if it's like that then just remove them if sonic has those abilities, or atleast make tails or knuckles unlockables as well.

If any kind of vertical mobility is the same as eachother, those characters are already redundant thanks to eachother

 

[rocklight124]

I think Sonic being a default character is kinda something SRB2 needs to get away from mostly, because of the massive amount of platforming; and a thok is going to break the game IF they add momentum. I would love to get away from the thought that Sonic must be purely horizontal Speed. I completely disagree with that, because of all the levels that I have played. A thok is always useful, but I would love something a little more unique that allows Sonic to move faster than anyone and help in get some verticality.

 

[_Astral]

what's the point of tails, knux, amy, and fang if sonic will be able to do the same thing? that'll just lose the point of all 4 of those characters, and possibly even making people not care if they even existed. if it's like that then just remove them if sonic has those abilities, or atleast make tails or knuckles unlockables as well.

I don't believe in making tails or knuckles unlockables because it removes the freedom of choice you're usually given when you first start playing, forcing you to play as only one character with no other options until later on in the game.

 

[AmazingEric23]

what's the point of tails, knux, amy, and fang if sonic will be able to do the same thing? that'll just lose the point of all 4 of those characters, and possibly even making people not care if they even existed. if it's like that then just remove them if sonic has those abilities, or atleast make tails or knuckles unlockables as well.

Do the same thing?
I don't think anyone is proposing we give Sonic fly, glide, a hammer, or bounce. That seems a little silly to me.

 

[time gear]

what's the point of tails, knux, amy, and fang if sonic will be able to do the same thing? that'll just lose the point of all 4 of those characters, and possibly even making people not care if they even existed. if it's like that then just remove them if sonic has those abilities, or atleast make tails or knuckles unlockables as well.

The problem primarily isn't that Sonic having more upward verticality would make other characters redundant (though it somewhat would), it's that other characters already provide ample upward verticality, so giving it to Sonic is totally unnecessary and redundant and takes away from the entire point to him.

First of all, if there's a reason to pick knuckles over tails or tails over knuckles, then it stands to reason that the same would be true if sonic had vertical mobility.

Sonic's uniqueness comes from his lack of needing upward verticality as a double jump ability, and such upward verticality only serves to slow him down. Going uphill is always going to be slower than going downhill, and excessive verticality primarily serves the purpose of skipping level design rather than enhancing it. This is why Sonic is generally designed in the official titles as the default experience, with everyone else being alternative playstyles more designed for players who have either already beaten the game or don't care about experiencing the levels properly.

Also, as I've already explained several times now, Sonic does have upwards verticality, he just has to work for it a little harder than everyone else. Simply pressing jump twice isn't going to give it to him, nor should it.

Second of all, the whole "sonic is uniquely horizontal in every sonic game" thing isn't even true, as sonic often has a wall jump in boost games, which is effectively just what the rebound dash adds.

I never said "Sonic is uniquely horizontal", I said he has to earn his verticality. Wall jumping is exclusively something that Modern Sonic has and generally exists as a more fun replacement for and equivalent to platforming sections that would otherwise just have Sonic jumping up several platforms slowly or riding up a slowly moving platform. Both methods of gaining height serve the same purpose of slowing the player down, and often come just before another section that provides the opportunity to go fast. Generally speaking, when Sonic is truly given the opportunity to gain some height, it requires him to have built up some speed first to make use of in achieving it.

I think Sonic being a default character is kinda something SRB2 needs to get away from mostly

The title character being the default experience is good game design. SRB2's stages are divided into two types of pathway; the main path and side paths. That's not changing, nor does it have any reason to change. Sonic's pathway being designed as the main pathway that most of the other characters can also follow if they choose to is a big chunk of the reason why the levels are fun. Sonic's role in the game is to provide a baseline experience that actually has to interact with the level design as intended to progress on a first time playthrough, while everyone else is given tools in their moveset they can use to simply skip sections of the level design through their boosted verticality. If you give every single character tools to easily skip the level design, your platforming game quickly starts to defeat its own purpose.

That's not to say that Sonic doesn't or shouldn't also have tools to skip. Again, it's simply more difficult for him. His moveset requires skill to perform skips, instead of simply pressing jump twice. He's easy to play, hard to master. This low skill floor high skill ceiling playstyle is what makes Sonic simultaneously accessible and engaging. By giving him unnecessary verticality, you risk trivializing the very thing that should be tricky and precise and lowering the skill ceiling in the process. Worse, you risk compromising the very thing that makes Sonic games fun to begin with, which is the rush you get from earning your speed. Worse still, to focus too heavily on upward verticality is to stray dangerously close to needing slow, tedious, uphill level design that doesn't give Sonic an opportunity to go fast just to make it harder to skip the level design to begin with. You will notice this with the other character exclusive pathways; they are not designed around speed, but rather around mobility. Now imagine that but it's the entire game.

That's not to say that SRB2 needs to be completely restrained by what the mainline series is, but if changes are going to be made to the formula they should be made for good reason and take care not to conflict with what makes it a Sonic game to begin with. If the whole point starts to become to not be like other Sonic games and to get away from them, you're not only going to alienate many of the longtime players but are going to get to the point where you might as well reskin everything to be original instead of being a Sonic fangame, and I honestly doubt that doing so is even remotely STJR's intention.