How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

[C.D. Dinosaur]

If you wanna skip sections of classic sonic as sonic, you got to put in the work to do so, you don't just double jump on a wall and magically get to go over what you want to go over, you learn the levels and use them to go over what you want to go over, it requires level mastery, skipping sections is not just something that should be given like candy


On the inverse however, its hard to use it. Sure your given speed by a press of a button, but that speed isn't always going to be a good thing, sometimes during platforming sections, the thok can put you in a even worse situation. Once you get good it becomes "Oh, I can thok in this place now because I learned how to use it throughout my playthrough" It isn't simply giving you speed, its giving you speed and expects you to know what to do with it once you double tap that button. That's what classic sonic is all about, learning the levels, and using what you learned to speedrun them. Not just double jumping on walls and skipping all challenge

You know what that perfectly describes? The boost. You gonna sit here and tell me that the boost is the best 3d classic sonic ability?

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

You know what that perfectly describes? The boost. You gonna sit here and tell me that the boost is the best 3d classic sonic ability?

You did NOT just compare the thok to the boost. The thok require skill and mastery of level to use well. You can't just keep thokking without not knowing what your doing and expect to get far, unlike the boost. The boost is braindead mindless speed for the sake of speed. You don't have to master the levels to use it, you don't have to have any skill, just press this button and you go fast for free, not to mentation how linear the level design is because of it. You thinking that the thok and the boost are even remotely comparable goes to show that you don't know what makes the thok so skillful and rewarding to learn.

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

You did NOT just compare the thok to the boost. The thok require skill and mastery of level to use well. You can't just keep thokking without not knowing what your doing and expect to get far, unlike the boost. The boost is braindead mindless speed for the sake of speed. You don't have to master the levels to use it, you don't have to have any skill, just press this button and you go fast for free, not to mentation how linear the level design is because of it. You thinking that the thok and the boost are even remotely comparable goes to show that you don't know what makes the thok so skillful and rewarding to learn.

This is a man ranting about the boost formula even though he hasn't played a single boost game. Unlike forces, boost games such as unleashed are completely skill based with their use of the boost and the challenge of the game is based on how fast you can react and adapt or how well you know the level. You finding my comparison insane does not mean I don't understand the thok, it means you don't understand the boost

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

This is a man ranting about the boost formula even though he hasn't played a single boost game. Unlike forces, boost games such as unleashed are completely skill based with their use of the boost and the challenge of the game is based on how fast you can react and adapt or how well you know the level. You finding my comparison insane does not mean I don't understand the thok, it means you don't understand the boost

What does the the boost have to do with the thok anyways? They aren't even in the same type of games /:

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

What does the the boost have to do with the thok anyways? They aren't even in the same type of games /:

They are both free speed that expect the player to know when and where they are most useful and they are both nearly useless for platforming. If you plan on using either of them in tight spaces you either skip the challenge or begin a stop and start fest which is slower than just not using them. Just because they are in two different types of games, doesn't mean they belong in to different types of games.

Post automatically merged: Jul 27, 2023

On the inverse however, its hard to use it. Sure your given speed by a press of a button, but that speed isn't always going to be a good thing, sometimes during platforming sections, the thok can put you in a even worse situation. Once you get good it becomes "Oh, I can thok in this place now because I learned how to use it throughout my playthrough" It isn't simply giving you speed, its giving you speed and expects you to know what to do with it once you double tap that button. That's what classic sonic is all about, learning the levels, and using what you learned to speedrun them. Not just double jumping on walls and skipping all challenge

Or you could just use this explanation

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

They are both free speed that expect the player to know when and where they are most useful and they are both nearly useless for platforming. If you plan on using either of them in tight spaces you either skip the challenge or begin a stop and start fest which is slower than just not using them. Just because they are in two different types of games, doesn't mean they belong in to different types of games.

The thok is not useless for platforming, like I said you can use it for platforming if you learn how to use it. The tight spaces thing is.. no shit, Why would you use something that gives you a burst of speed in a tight space? This can also go vs the rebound dash because you can accidently rebound off of walls you don't want to rebound off of. Either way the thok is waaaay better then the boost ever was

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

The thok is not useless for platforming, like I said you can use it for platforming if you learn how to use it. The tight spaces thing is.. no shit, Why would you use something that gives you a burst of speed in a tight space? This can also go vs the rebound dash because you can accidently rebound off of walls you don't want to rebound off of. Either way the thok is waaaay better then the boost ever was

The thing is, the rebound dash is cancellable.

I don't know why you are so against the rebound dash. It's not always about how sonic plays, the rebound dash is one of the moves that best replicates how sonic feels. You can get creative with angles and such and it's maybe the closest we've ever gotten to playing the sonic cd into. The thok couldn't do that. It doesn't take much level knowledge to skip five platforms by spindash jumping then thokking and it doesn't really feel remotely rewarding when I do it. Doing a crazy ricochet against two walls then badnik bouncing is rewarding

Using the thok makes me catatonic because there is neither a risk nor much of a reward for using it for over half the campaign. The rebound dash has the reward of looking and feeling cool as fuck

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

The thing is, the rebound dash is cancellable.

I don't know why you are so against the rebound dash. It's not always about how sonic plays, the rebound dash is one of the moves that best replicates how sonic feels. You can get creative with angles and such and it's maybe the closest we've ever gotten to playing the sonic cd into. The thok couldn't do that. It doesn't take much level knowledge to skip five platforms by spindash jumping then thokking and it doesn't really feel remotely rewarding when I do it. Doing a crazy ricochet against two walls then badnik bouncing is rewarding

Using the thok makes me catatonic because there is neither a risk nor much of a reward for using it for over half the campaign. The rebound dash has the reward of looking and feeling cool as fuck

the reward for using the thok well is being able to go fast???????
the risk for using the thok is getting yourself into trouble??????

also, I'm against the rebound dash because I feel like sonic shouldn't have any vertical movement whatsoever, and he should just stick to being the amazing horizontal mobility character he is, I've said this before, but all the rebound dash does is give sonic more options than he really needs

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

the reward for using the thok well is being able to go fast???????
the risk for using the thok is getting yourself into trouble??????

also, I'm against the rebound dash because I feel like sonic shouldn't have any vertical movement whatsoever, and he should just stick to being the amazing horizontal mobility character he is, I've said this before, but all the rebound dash does is give sonic more options than he really needs

The speed is a hollow victory as you didn't really do anything to achieve it. You can thok on nearly every jump up to, like erz and it's unlikely you'll face any consequences. And even in you so, just pick up a few rings and your right back on your way. It's not about what sonic needs, it's about what makes him a more fun character to play as. I play games to have fun, so I prefer an ability that makes sonic more fun to play

 

[chromaticpipe]

If you wanna skip sections of classic sonic as sonic, you got to put in the work to do so, you don't just double jump on a wall and magically get to go over what you want to go over, you learn the levels and use them to go over what you want to go over, it requires level mastery, skipping sections is not just something that should be given like candy

If you want to think of it like that, then I suggest looking at the rebound training level that comes with the rebound dash and maybe you will learn that the rebound dash isnt "free height" like you keep suggesting and requires skill just like the thok

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

If you want to think of it like that, then I suggest looking at the rebound training level that comes with the rebound dash and maybe you will learn that the rebound dash isnt "free height" like you keep suggesting and requires skill just like the thok

All you need to do is dash into a wall twice, and you get free height. There's no skill to it.

 

[chromaticpipe]

Did you even look at the level

 

[rocklight124]

The Thok doesn't really work in a momentum based game. It just gives you free speed (which is bad in some cases), but in this case the thok is a pretty bare bones ability. And I think that Sonic deserves an ability that lets him platform faster than most characters. I want him to play like he does in the Sonic CD opening.

Sonic doesn't need the thok anymore. In the past I was really stuck on the thok being what Sonic is all about, but these countless abilities that modders have made have proven to me that Sonic is at his best when an ability is made with Speed and Platforming in mind. A lot of people have love for the Thok, but realize that it doesn't really help Sonic platform in most cases (but I'm aware that it can work in platforming). I love the ReboundDash it is easily the coolest ability to come out of a Sonic game Since the drop dash, but this is a 3D platformer, not a 2d platformer. So whatever Sonic gets as his ability I think it should be just a little broken. I think a cool ability a is made when it allows the player to feel like they are breaking the game a bit, plus the ReboundDash looks Shocking cool. Take the Sonic Boost from Sonic Unleashed/Unwiished Both versions of the boost work very well for beginners, but in the hands of a master you'll be blazing the stage like a comet.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

Did you even look at the level

Unless you want to design every single level to be exactly like that stage, the rebound dash will not balanced around srb2.

 

[chromaticpipe]

All you need to do is dash into a wall twice, and you get free height. There's no skill to it.

It's also very easy to actually rebound away from where you want to go, it does take some skill to use it, and Sonic can only gain slightly more height than he could normally. I think it does perfectly fine as a movement utility

 

[///]

also, I'm against the rebound dash because I feel like sonic shouldn't have any vertical movement whatsoever, and he should just stick to being the amazing horizontal mobility character he is, I've said this before, but all the rebound dash does is give sonic more options than he really needs

I think the rebound dash is one of the best Sonic moves that closely replicates the utility of the thok, making it an extremely fitting platforming tool for Sonic. If we let go of the "sonic is a purely no-height character" mentality, it'll open up a ton of opportunities for better-designed abilities.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

I think the rebound dash is one of the best Sonic moves that closely replicates the utility of the thok, making it an extremely fitting platforming tool for Sonic. If we let go of the "sonic is a purely no-height character" mentality, it'll open up a ton of opportunities for better-designed abilities.

and these better designed abilities are..... the thok with a extra unneeded gimmick and a move that's 3 things at once for some reason?

 

[///]

and these better designed abilities are..... the thok with a extra unneeded gimmick and a move that's 3 things at once for some reason?

We can't just call every Sonic air dash ability the thok. The rebound dash is simple, easy to pick up, and benefits both platforming and speedrunning because it rewards the player for their knowledge of the map design and their skill of using the ability in general - it could be a pretty decent replacement for the thok.

 

[time gear]

also, I'm against the rebound dash because I feel like sonic shouldn't have any vertical movement whatsoever, and he should just stick to being the amazing horizontal mobility character he is, I've said this before, but all the rebound dash does is give sonic more options than he really needs

I partially agree with this, however there is a nuance to the argument that I don't agree with. In regards to upwards vertical movement, the only situation I would be okay with Sonic having any would be in the event that either he's the only playable character, or he's transformed into Super Sonic. Upwards verticality is something that every single other has, and is distinctly something that doesn't really fit the gameplay trope that Sonic himself fits into, at least without making use of things like springs, or homing chains in the Adventure games and later. Upwards verticality is what the other characters are for, it's why you pick them over Sonic.

However, I'm more than fine with the idea of Sonic having downwards verticality. Such a thing could be used in conjunction with slopes to assist Sonic in gaining and maintaining speed, which suits him perfectly.

I'm not too sure why you would think the ability who's only purpose is to give you top speed on a silver platter goes well with a game series about attaining and maintaining speed.

The thok can give you top running speed, but it doesn't give you top speed in general. Even in Sonic 1 achieving top running speed only involved holding left or right for a couple seconds. The nuance that makes thok engaging is that if you manage to get moving faster than that, the thok doesn't necessarily slow you down and makes for a great momentum redirection tool. Whether for turning on a dime, performing a bounce off a monitor/spring/enemy at a particular angle, or a combination of the two, the thok is actually great for skill based movement that involves holding onto speed and/or making skillful use of it.

The issue with the rebound dash is that like the thok the nuance to the ability that makes it engaging is very skill based. The entire point of them removing the thok is to make Sonic more beginner friendly. If beginner players are struggling to make use of the thok, something that's largely the same thing but that ping pongs you around all over the place is only going to make the problem worse. I do enjoy the ability, but fun is a subjective thing and I personally have always found making skilled use of the thok to be more fun. The thok feels less in control early on, but when you know what you are doing it's much more satisfying to use.

While I would prefer for the thok to remain on Sonic, it being accessible in the vanilla game without mods is a larger priority for me for the sake of being able to use it on my actual save file. I do like the idea of putting it on an unlockable character so long as the character has more than just the thok validating their existence. Just as with the old Metal Sonic concept that has since been scrapped, the idea of just making another character "Old Sonic" with nothing else special to them is lame and takes away from any originality the character could otherwise have. A concept I've put forward in the past is the idea of implementing Espio as a playable character with the thok as his double jump ability. To make him more interesting and unique, he could be unable to spindash, but able to walk/run on walls/ceilings for brief periods of time (or for as long as he wants while Super) while holding down the spin button. This would make his playstyle sort of like a parkour ninja playstyle, speedier than knuckles and technically more mobile, but not quite as upwards vertical in regards to potential height gained in base form.

 

[phantomlimb]

The thok is a problem? This is the first time I'm hearing about it. If the thok is hard for new players to understand then maybe the new players are not smart.