How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

.... everyone can ignore enemies lmao
Yeah. It’s just that you’d expect Sonic to have somewhat of a harder time compared to everyone else when dealing with them because he has no native ability to fly away from his problems. But there’s no problem to worry about when the enemies can’t get close enough to touch you anyways.

Sonic is also presented as the “hard” character to play as when in reality he’s only hard compared to everyone else because he has no tools to save him from big platforming mistakes if he goes too low to thok back onto a platform as well as the thok itself being somewhat unwieldy for newcomers to use effectively when the other abilities that characters have are way more appealing and safe to use at the cost of not having the fastest horizontal movement speed.
 
Yeah. It’s just that you’d expect Sonic to have somewhat of a harder time compared to everyone else when dealing with them because he has no native ability to fly away from his problems. But there’s no problem to worry about when the enemies can’t get close enough to touch you anyways.

Sonic is also presented as the “hard” character to play as when in reality he’s only hard compared to everyone else because he has no tools to save him from big platforming mistakes if he goes too low to thok back onto a platform as well as the thok itself being somewhat unwieldy for newcomers to use effectively when the other abilities that characters have are way more appealing and safe to use at the cost of not having the fastest horizontal movement speed.
I like to think as sonic is the way that the game was intended to be played. The thok not working well with newcomers is.... kinda the entire point. 2.1 already says that sonic is not a beginner friendly character, If you don't want to learn how to use the thok then ofc other characters are going to catch your eye, that's the point of having more than one character to play with. If you DO learn how to use the thok then sonic becomes very powerful, and can really speed up slower levels, just like how if you learn how to play the classic games slower levels become faster.
 
1. Does sort of mean you played a fan made recreation of the ability, because if so you can't really argue against it on the grounds of it's implementation. 2. Since when was knuckles, with his lower jump and more difficult patches, better for beginners? 3. The ability in question isn't even the only, or main, contender for the Thok's replacement. 4. The problem is the thok doesn't work. It's throws off balance in all competitive multiplayer modes, and if every single new player has trouble using it then it's likely not a question of skill. And you're calling the new ability unintuitive. The thok is a platforming move that isn't designed to be used in a platforming scenario
if every new player has trouble using it it's not a question of skill is like saying i'm new to fps games and dying over and over on hard mode it's not a question of skill i swear the game is just bad also the fact that the thok doesn't help with platforming is a straight up lie you would not know the amount it has saved me from death and aided platforming via Badnik jumps making tight turns correcting mistakes
 
I'm not opposed to the new move. The thok feels... basic. It grants extra momentum, and can be spammed. In my eyes, that's a boring, and Overpowered move. In Races, you can blast right past every other non-sonic character with ease.

However, I also have problems with this new move. it seems overcomplicated, especially compared to the other's abilities.

Up until now, the main 3 had their "iconic" ability. Sonic with his Speed thok, Tails with his flight, and Knux with his strength (and gliding)
Now sonic has this move that can do 3 different things, while the other's abilities only do 1. Plus It could be hard to master, harder than the debated thok itself. All of the main cast have rather simple ablities while sonic gets this overcomplicated one? Seems unfair. I think the other characters should have their abilities revisited, too.

Basically, I'm all for the replacement, so long as the other character abilities get a revamp, too.
 
I like to think as sonic is the way that the game was intended to be played. The thok not working well with newcomers is.... kinda the entire point. 2.1 already says that sonic is not a beginner friendly character, If you don't want to learn how to use the thok then ofc other characters are going to catch your eye, that's the point of having more than one character to play with.
I agree with a lot of this, but I don't really have an issue with the thok being moved off Sonic so long that it's still somehow available without modding or cheating for those of us that enjoy it and whatever replaces it in Sonic's moveset isn't something that focuses too much on making Sonic an upwards vertical character instead of a horizontal speed character.

Sonic being the default experience with things generally getting easier for the other characters is good game design, but I also don't disagree with the devs sentiment that since Sonic is the title character and new players will most likely want to play as him first, his moveset shouldn't be one with a high skill floor. What I absolutely don't want to see in any circumstance however is Sonic being tailored specifically for slower platforming (too much focus on climbing the levels) over his roots in carrying speed and momentum. Rather, his ability should be something that gives players of all skill levels a feeling of control while also playing well with level design meant to give Sonic the opportunity to propel himself forward using the terrain.

Generally speaking, Sonic's new double jump ability should ideally try to check as many of the following boxes as possible:
  • Fun and accessible to players of all skill levels; low skill floor
  • Rewards skillful play; high skill ceiling
  • Plays well with both fast paced and slow paced playstyles, doesn't clash with either
  • Encourages exploration and occasionally grants access to shortcuts
  • Not overly tailored towards upward movement
  • Doesn't actively punish players for using it in the majority of situations, getting punished for using it should always feel like player error
  • Functions as a decent combat assist in addition to its platforming utility
 
from what i've seen from both abilities, it may be a good idea to either straight up use the rebound dash, or fuse it with the thok, making the initial dash more simliar to thok, but adding the bounce part from the rebound dash (btw i haven't read the full thread so im not sure if this idea has been thrown around already)
 
alright I think that the thok should not be removed because i mean it would be like if knuckles could not wall climb anymore but instead he got a dig move that lets him jump out and jump 2x as high
it would be dumb
 
It's weird how nobody who's arguing against the thok can decide whether it's too hard and new players can't figure it out or it's too easy and all you do is spam it to go fast.
Which one is it? Pick one already.

I will reiterate what I stated in the thok video about verticality: Sonic should not have a built-in tool that allows him to ascend whenever he wants.
One of the cores of Sonic's gameplay in the classic Sonic games is that speed is a reward, and if you want to skip sections of level design with Sonic, you have to earn it. The thok does provide this functionality, in fact slopes actually benefit the thok more than they hurt it as in certain instances slope physics can be used in tandem with the thok and allows Sonic to reach areas that would otherwise be inaccessible to him.

SRB2 should not be concerned with holding the hands of new players. Sonic was never meant "for beginners", and this holds true in the classic games as well. If you're just starting out and want to explore the game at your own pace, pick Tails. Or if you really want to play as Sonic, pick Sonic & Tails.
 
It's weird how nobody who's arguing against the thok can decide whether it's too hard and new players can't figure it out or it's too easy and all you do is spam it to go fast.
Which one is it? Pick one already.

I will reiterate what I stated in the thok video about verticality: Sonic should not have a built-in tool that allows him to ascend whenever he wants.
One of the cores of Sonic's gameplay in the classic Sonic games is that speed is a reward, and if you want to skip sections of level design with Sonic, you have to earn it. The thok does provide this functionality, in fact slopes actually benefit the thok more than they hurt it as in certain instances slope physics can be used in tandem with the thok and allows Sonic to reach areas that would otherwise be inaccessible to him.

SRB2 should not be concerned with holding the hands of new players. Sonic was never meant "for beginners", and this holds true in the classic games as well. If you're just starting out and want to explore the game at your own pace, pick Tails. Or if you really want to play as Sonic, pick Sonic & Tails.
Facts
 
SRB2 should not be concerned with holding the hands of new players. Sonic was never meant "for beginners", and this holds true in the classic games as well. If you're just starting out and want to explore the game at your own pace, pick Tails. Or if you really want to play as Sonic, pick Sonic & Tails.
i don't think the titular character of the game should have to be gatekept from beginners for the game to be enjoyed, it doesn't solve the problem at its core because 1. as i said it's literally gatekeeping but more importantly 2. it's more likely than not that beginners are just going to ignore that advice and pick sonic anyway. after all, why would you pick up a sonic game for the first time and not...yknow...pick sonic?

of course the ability shouldn't be easy to exploit or rival the vertical ability of tails or knuckles, no denying that, but it should be easy to pick up and have a lot of intetnionally crafted depth and a high skill ceiling, and i don't think the thok ever really fit that description. comet dash or rebound dash maybe, but it's open for discussion.

It's weird how nobody who's arguing against the thok can decide whether it's too hard and new players can't figure it out or it's too easy and all you do is spam it to go fast.
Which one is it? Pick one already.
it very well can be both, and it is, just at different times. there are certain points of srb2's platforming sections where you can use the thok for speed or distance, but at a very steep cost of control, likely ending up with the player over/undershooting a platform. even today i've found myself in situations where i undershoot a jump, thok to catch the destination, but end up running off of it or jumping and thokking again just so that i can put myself in some kind of comfortable position. it's more commom than you'd think, and it can result in people just not wanting to use the thok at the risk of not ensuring their safety.

the other side of the coin is just as reasonable too. there are stretches of straight open areas in srb2's stages that don't have any obstacles, and so sonic players feel encouraged to thok spam to get it over with, something that can only actually be rivalled my metal sonic's dashmode. i believe what people mean when they say it's "too easy" is that it's an absurd speed/investment ratio. it's 60 fracunits of speed in an instant, which, even though it's slightly more powerful, makes the spindash almost useless because of how long it takes to charge. it can go to 70, but why waste your time? why use the spindash at all when the thok can give you the same results for a much lower time cost?
 
SRB2 should not be concerned with holding the hands of new players. Sonic was never meant "for beginners", and this holds true in the classic games as well. If you're just starting out and want to explore the game at your own pace, pick Tails. Or if you really want to play as Sonic, pick Sonic & Tails.
I agree with this in principle, however as I have stated before I do also see the title character as being accessible to beginners and being the base that the game is built around as just being general good game design. The two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive however, the title character can be the base that the game is built around and still provide both accessibility for beginners and challenge for seasoned veterans, and I do believe that this is achievable with thok. It's all a matter of level design, a matter I'm not going to get too in-depth in with this post because I've already covered the subject at length in this very thread.

It's weird how nobody who's arguing against the thok can decide whether it's too hard and new players can't figure it out or it's too easy and all you do is spam it to go fast.
Which one is it? Pick one already.
The devs internal data as well as newcomers themselves giving their thoughts is what suggests that the thok is too hard. New players don't like thok because it gets them killed when used recklessly, a problem that I generally attribute to the level design with its stage hazards and enemy placement and not to the thok itself. Veteran players who don't like the thok are the group that generally attributes the thok to being too easy and being "spam it to go fast". That being said, there's naturally always going to be some overlap between groups regarding their viewpoints. The overall point I'm making here is that most people already did pick one a while ago, the contradiction generally comes from opposing viewpoints from players with different levels of experience with it.

it very well can be both, and it is, just at different times. there are certain points of srb2's platforming sections where you can use the thok for speed or distance, but at a very steep cost of control, likely ending up with the player over/undershooting a platform. even today i've found myself in situations where i undershoot a jump, thok to catch the destination, but end up running off of it or jumping and thokking again just so that i can put myself in some kind of comfortable position. it's more commom than you'd think, and it can result in people just not wanting to use the thok at the risk of not ensuring their safety.

the other side of the coin is just as reasonable too. there are stretches of straight open areas in srb2's stages that don't have any obstacles, and so sonic players feel encouraged to thok spam to get it over with, something that can only actually be rivalled my metal sonic's dashmode. i believe what people mean when they say it's "too easy" is that it's an absurd speed/investment ratio. it's 60 fracunits of speed in an instant, which, even though it's slightly more powerful, makes the spindash almost useless because of how long it takes to charge. it can go to 70, but why waste your time? why use the spindash at all when the thok can give you the same results for a much lower time cost?
And this generally just bolsters my point regarding the thok. It's actually quite hard to criticize the thok as a mechanic in and of itself. It's a very simple mechanic and has a certain elegance through that simplicity as a result. It's difficult to refine the thok because any attempt to do so usually only makes it more complex and therefore takes away from what makes it work so well to begin with.

Instead, those who criticize the thok in any real detail usually start talking about interactions with level design. It becomes clear rather quickly that SRB2's levels generally have little if any intentional design built around the thok at all. Situations in which the thok is advantageous tend to be clearly accidental and are outnumbered by situations in which you shouldn't use it or using it being very risky.

Regarding the comparison between thok and spindash however, do keep in mind that while they both amount to instant speed, the contexts in which someone would be using one or the other do matter; thok's primary usage is as an air tool, redirecting Sonic's movement instantaneously into another direction. It's useful for turning on a dime. The spindash is more useful in situations in which turning and air based movement isn't your priority and you're more invested in traveling along the ground itself quickly (especially down slopes) or crossing a gap of water, and allows you to get under tight passages. The thok isn't always useful when the spindash is and vice versa.

Both have crossover potential however. You can simply spin into a ball when landing after a thok, and you can simply jump after spindashing. It is through this that the two abilities work in tandem to create a large chunk of the skill ceiling in Sonic's playstyle. The only real noteworthy change I would probably make to the thok is to tie how strong it is to whatever the current fastest speed Sonic is capable of is. Make it so it can't be used from a standstill to go faster than Sonic's running speed cap, but once you get going faster than that using it will redirect your momentum in the direction you are facing without any loss of speed. This would be disincentive for spamming it without taking away from what makes it work to begin with. From there, the level design would have to be built with making use of it in mind, with it generally being safe to use in the early game such as in Greenflower and later being fairly risky such as in Egg Rock, with the difficulty curve being gradual and natural and built to give the player time to get a good feel for it so that they feel in control by the time the level design is asking for more skillful usage of it from them.
 
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Instead, those who criticize the thok in any real detail usually start talking about interactions with level design. It becomes clear rather quickly that SRB2's levels generally have little if any intentional design built around the thok at all. Situations in which the thok is advantageous tend to be clearly accidental and are outnumbered by situations in which you shouldn't use it or using it being very risky.
i'm aware you're not trying to say it's invalid or pointless to talk about level design but i do feel that the way the level design meshes with the thok is equally important to how the thok acts on its own. after all, there is undeniably going to be a big portion of the game that can't be designed around the thok. the stages for the most part are designed around the lowest common denominator of movesets (basic running and jumping) so that they can be beaten both by the vanilla cast and (theoretically) every modded character as well. i think a situation where the level design doesn't mesh perfectly with the characters is pretty inescapable, and that's fine.

however (at the risk of sounding like a strawman) i personally think that because of this it's kind of difficult to design around the thok in any way other than incidental slope jumps or slightly longer than usual gaps, because it's a pretty barebones ability. not that that's bad, despite being someone who's on the side of the thok being replaced i think it has its simplistic charm, but i think trying to design dedicated platforming around it could end up being kind of clumsy, with segments that can either be easily cleared without it because of its limited environmental utility or segments that are just barely unreachable by characters without it.

overall i think the thok, if it were to return, could use environmental interactions to add an extra layer of utility and (more importantly) level design potential, which steers back to the idea of the rebound dash, comet dash or trick spin.

Regarding the comparison between thok and spindash however, do keep in mind that while they both amount to instant speed, the contexts in which someone would be using one or the other do matter; thok's primary usage is as an air tool, redirecting Sonic's movement instantaneously into another direction. It's useful for turning on a dime. The spindash is more useful in situations in which turning and air based movement isn't your priority and you're more invested in traveling along the ground itself quickly (especially down slopes) or crossing a gap of water, and allows you to get under tight passages. The thok isn't always useful when the spindash is and vice versa.
this is true, and i think it was a little hard on the spindash in my initial tirade, but i do still think both the speed/time ratio and the utility overlap kind of eclipse the spindash. in situations where they both may be of use, the thok is almost always preferable because of the speed and the lack of time it takes to reach it.

one of the examples you brought up, the scenario where you'd want to travel along a stretch of ground quickly, is a great example of how the thok outdoes the spindash. if it's flat ground, then the thok comes out on top, because it's very easy to jump as soon as you hit the ground, retaining the thok's speed, and thus do another to keep a consistent speed. the same can be said about the spindash, true, but it's much harder to retain its speed over flat ground. you do have the advantage of being able to roll after landing from a spindash jump (something that isn't possible with the thok, by the way), but that does gradually reduce your speed. on a downward slope, the spindash potentially wins out because of the speed increase, but the thok is almost equally viable, as it gives you a height advantage. granted, that is a way more niche case, but it does have its utility in the right environment.
 
i'm aware you're not trying to say it's invalid or pointless to talk about level design but i do feel that the way the level design meshes with the thok is equally important to how the thok acts on its own.
Both things have to work in tandem. The thok doesn't work as well if the level design isn't built around it and the level design becomes at best "basic" when it's not designed around particular movement.

after all, there is undeniably going to be a big portion of the game that can't be designed around the thok. the stages for the most part are designed around the lowest common denominator of movesets (basic running and jumping) so that they can be beaten both by the vanilla cast and (theoretically) every modded character as well.
Modded characters should never be a priority. If someone decides to make a modded character that can only run and jump and therefore cannot complete a vanilla stage, that's their own choice. As for the vanilla cast, pretty much everyone has something in their toolkit to deal with level design built primarily around thok, which I will cover a little more on later. For this paragraph however, the main point I would like to make is in regards to split pathways. Say you're playing with Amy and just can't quite seem to cross a thok gap. This would be the perfect place in the level design to place an alternative pathway that Amy can easily reach and Sonic either can't reach easily or at all. Ideally, this alternative path would also be the faster path for reaching the goal, making races in the level more fair between characters and providing a risk vs reward scenario for skilled Sonic players to reach the goal faster if they can pull it off.

owever (at the risk of sounding like a strawman) i personally think that because of this it's kind of difficult to design around the thok in any way other than incidental slope jumps or slightly longer than usual gaps, because it's a pretty barebones ability.
This is simply a matter of lack of imagination. The thing about simple abilities is that the complexity of level design built around it comes from the level design itself, just as in games that make good use of more literal double jump mechanics. Gaps and slope jumps are the most obvious form of interaction with the ability a level can feature, but there's also situations such as but not limited to using it to skip platforms that you could have landed on instead, bouncing off enemies/monitors to cross even larger gaps, making the turn around a tight corner more quickly, making use of the burst of speed to get through a moving or incoming hazard effectively, and any number of combinations of these things. And that's not even getting into how the thok could be used in combat interactions with the enemies themselves.

Other characters would generally be able to interact with the level design using their own unique abilities. There's very few things you could do to build the level around the thok that other characters wouldn't actually be able to skip or cross somehow even without splitting the level design, such as simply flying or gliding + climbing as Tails or Knuckles to cross a gap. Effectively, you can actually do things to make thok mandatory for Sonic on occasion (ideally with options in the level design to take another path that doesn't require it) without barring that pathway off from everyone else just simply because of how mobile everyone else is in comparison. Sonic himself is usually the lowest common denominator, and it's (especially but not exclusively) in situations he's not that alternate pathways should be placed.

this is true, and i think it was a little hard on the spindash in my initial tirade, but i do still think both the speed/time ratio and the utility overlap kind of eclipse the spindash. in situations where they both may be of use, the thok is almost always preferable because of the speed and the lack of time it takes to reach it.

one of the examples you brought up, the scenario where you'd want to travel along a stretch of ground quickly, is a great example of how the thok outdoes the spindash. if it's flat ground, then the thok comes out on top, because it's very easy to jump as soon as you hit the ground, retaining the thok's speed, and thus do another to keep a consistent speed.
This isn't really a problem. It's just one of the nuances of Sonic's gameplay specifically. This option is available for him uniquely, whereas other characters that can use the spindash would have to use it instead. Effectively, Sonic has the option to either charge up for more speed, or get an instant burst of less speed, which gives him an edge in a race against other characters. This is why the level design should occasionally have splits that give other characters easily accessed shortcuts to the goal. It balances out Sonic's speed advantage with the other characters' unique capabilities. When Sonic is able to access these specific alternative paths, it should always be a reward for skillful play with failure being punished by lost time to the goal.
 
Both things have to work in tandem. The thok doesn't work as well if the level design isn't built around it and the level design becomes at best "basic" when it's not designed around particular movement.
This isn't really a problem. It's just one of the nuances of Sonic's gameplay specifically. This option is available for him uniquely, whereas other characters that can use the spindash would have to use it instead. Effectively, Sonic has the option to either charge up for more speed, or get an instant burst of less speed, which gives him an edge in a race against other characters. This is why the level design should occasionally have splits that give other characters easily accessed shortcuts to the goal. It balances out Sonic's speed advantage with the other characters' unique capabilities. When Sonic is able to access these specific alternative paths, it should always be a reward for skillful play with failure being punished by lost time to the goal.
Other characters would generally be able to interact with the level design using their own unique abilities. There's very few things you could do to build the level around the thok that other characters wouldn't actually be able to skip or cross somehow even without splitting the level design, such as simply flying or gliding + climbing as Tails or Knuckles to cross a gap. Effectively, you can actually do things to make thok mandatory for Sonic on occasion (ideally with options in the level design to take another path that doesn't require it) without barring that pathway off from everyone else just simply because of how mobile everyone else is in comparison. Sonic himself is usually the lowest common denominator, and it's (especially but not exclusively) in situations he's not that alternate pathways should be placed.

honestly i think the points you made for the most part are agreeable and for these ones specifically i'll fully concede to them.

Modded characters should never be a priority. If someone decides to make a modded character that can only run and jump and therefore cannot complete a vanilla stage, that's their own choice. As for the vanilla cast, pretty much everyone has something in their toolkit to deal with level design built primarily around thok, which I will cover a little more on later. For this paragraph however, the main point I would like to make is in regards to split pathways. Say you're playing with Amy and just can't quite seem to cross a thok gap. This would be the perfect place in the level design to place an alternative pathway that Amy can easily reach and Sonic either can't reach easily or at all. Ideally, this alternative path would also be the faster path for reaching the goal, making races in the level more fair between characters and providing a risk vs reward scenario for skilled Sonic players to reach the goal faster if they can pull it off.
i don't think modded characters should ever be a priority, i agree, but i think they should at least be put into account. i'll admit i didn't think too far ahead when i brought up modded characters initially, since most tend to be on par with or more capable than the vanilla cast, so creating a "lowest common denominator" isn't as big a deal as i thought, but it should still exist to some extent beyond it being just the path that sonic takes.
i have a hard time picturing a srb2 where every moment of gameplay is specifically crafted around the characters, there's still going to be times where every character will have to share a platforming section. that's fine, it's a standard of every platformer, especially ones that have differing character playstyles, but it should definitely still be easily accessible by any character you load up the game with. again, it doesn't have to be a priority, but modding is integral enough to the srb2 experience that it should be taken into consideration. it's how we ended up with the zoom tube expansion in 2.2.11 (a great change, in my opinion).

This is simply a matter of lack of imagination.
yeah probably

The thing about simple abilities is that the complexity of level design built around it comes from the level design itself, just as in games that make good use of more literal double jump mechanics. Gaps and slope jumps are the most obvious form of interaction with the ability a level can feature, but there's also situations such as but not limited to using it to skip platforms that you could have landed on instead, bouncing off enemies/monitors to cross even larger gaps, making the turn around a tight corner more quickly, making use of the burst of speed to get through a moving or incoming hazard effectively, and any number of combinations of these things. And that's not even getting into how the thok could be used in combat interactions with the enemies themselves.
those are valid use cases for the thok but i do feel as if some are more circumstantial than others. bouncing off of enemies, for example, while it can be enhanced by the thok, is something you can already do, and arguably more efficiently as someone like knuckles. not to mention that (personally) it feels like an exploit or secret technique rather than something that is an active gameplay mechanic or level design feature. the other examples aren't as bad, some being quite good examples (stuff like being able to turn on a dime being something i hope is preserved to some extent in 2.3), but overall i still would prefer an ability that actively interacts with the environment. at this point, though, it's just my personal opinion. thok isn't bad, and you've made quite a case for it, but i think having an ability that goes just a little bit deeper would make designing specifically around sonic easier.
 
Personally, I do not like the fact of the thok being replaced. It seems to ruin a small part of the attempt of recreating classic Sonic gameplay in 3D where abilities are supposed to be simple and they require only one button. Plus, people who are new to SRB2 but interested in the older versions would be confused to find out that Sonic's ability was different back then and if they like the thok, would be wondering why they replaced it. If Sonic can reach high places with this ability, it kind of ruins the point of using Tails or Knuckles to find these areas.
 
i don't think modded characters should ever be a priority, i agree, but i think they should at least be put into account. i'll admit i didn't think too far ahead when i brought up modded characters initially, since most tend to be on par with or more capable than the vanilla cast, so creating a "lowest common denominator" isn't as big a deal as i thought, but it should still exist to some extent beyond it being just the path that sonic takes.
i have a hard time picturing a srb2 where every moment of gameplay is specifically crafted around the characters, there's still going to be times where every character will have to share a platforming section. that's fine, it's a standard of every platformer, especially ones that have differing character playstyles, but it should definitely still be easily accessible by any character you load up the game with. again, it doesn't have to be a priority, but modding is integral enough to the srb2 experience that it should be taken into consideration. it's how we ended up with the zoom tube expansion in 2.2.11 (a great change, in my opinion).
To speak on this point specifically, the problem with trying to take characters that aren't actually a part of the vanilla experience into account is that you start designing around what isn't there instead of what is. You start running into the problem as well regarding where to draw the line. If you try to design the levels around being completable by the most underpowered character possible, you ruin the experience for all of the characters that aren't. It's the responsibility of mod creators to design their characters to work within the level design, and not the other way around. The levels need to work with and be fun for the vanilla cast first and foremost.
 
While yes,i do like the Thok and how overpowered it is when used with skill,im basicly on the sides of both camps. Power Spin helps the new players of SRB2 have fun with Sonic,instead of accidentally thoking into a bottomless pit.However,it does have its own flaws,which i will mention later. The Thok is the abillity that was used for decades,and it wasnt always gonna be that way. There have been multiple times where the iconic abillity was going to replaced,but ultimately scrapped. In the Multiplayer side of things,its the abillity that most Sonic mains abuse in servers.

- For example,spamming the Thok in CTF makes you get to the enemy base in 1:30 minutes at max. Even if he does get the flag,he is still fast enough to his base and score a point. If you have skill and luck,you can abuse the Thok to do cycles of going from A to B really fast,unlike other vanilla characters where they take way longer.

- Even better example would be Tag,where if your the hunter and play with Sonic, you can spam the Thok to get to one player you want to hit with the rings and then get a free "kill". This can be an exception with characters Like Tails,Knuckles and Metal,but they all have to come down eventually.

In these gametypes,playing with Sonic is what i would call "Spam2Win". It doesnt make you get skill if your a beginner,and its not fun to use when you arent experienced with the abillity. Speedrunners use this abillity a lot,and making it deleted may or may not be good from them at all,which is one of those reasons i would want the Thok to stay on the game.

Power Spin does allow you to reach paths current version of Sonic cant reach,but its also like a swiss knife with multiple functions. It would make beginners confused on what to press in specific situations. One of the functions can make Tails and Knuckles useless,since now Sonic can also get on high places whenever he wants and has better speed than the other two. This also makes Sonic have the most moveset out of all Vanilla characters,which is not fair since nowdays, fan game creators started giving Sonic way too many abillities,and for characters like Tails and Knuckles,they mostly use their very basic movement they had in Sonic 3 & Knuckles (with few exceptions such as Sonic P-06).


If i was in charge of the whole Thok Replacement arguments,i would do this:

1. Nerf Power Spin so it doesnt have too many abillities in one.
2. Keep the thok as a chooseable moveset option in Options menu.
 
(If you don't want to read this giant post, then my main point is below the dotted line (or you could just go to the TL;DR section at the bottom). Also, when I say "Max Running Speed, I mean the top capped speed you can get by holding forward on un-sloped terrain.)

I doubt this post will help anyone, but I wanted to put my own thoughts out there about the situation.

I've read over this whole thread, and, strictly gameplay wise, the argument seems to be that "if STjr removes Sonic's Thok, something will be lost" or if the Thok is gone, Sonic loses an aspect of his gameplay that the other's do not have. I've thought the same, but wasn't sure exactly why that was. So I played through SRB2 3 times now to figure out what exactly do people appreciate about the Thok?

Now I wouldn't call myself a professional speedrunner, but I like to try and go as fast as possible through the levels when I play them. But the biggest problem with the Thok is it's unwieldiness to newbies and how it gives the player free speed on a silver platter, so I will not so much as ignore those aspects of the move, but focused my efforts on what other attributes the Thok may have. Also, other's have said how Sonic doesn't seem to have his own way of movement that gives him access to parts of the level that others cannot reach, like how Tails and Knuckles do, and that he shouldn't because that's how the classic games functioned.

But SRB2 does not follow a lot of the things that classic Sonic games do, and that's completely fine. Although people do get annoyed (myself included) about how a lot of recent Sonic fangames (SRB2 included, but I am not saying this to call SRB2 a 'new' game) have been replicating the classic game's design philosophy and therefore make the fangames feel "samey", but I realize that they do so because the classics have phenomenal design fundamentals (when the levels and characters are designed around it) which give them their distinct feel that makes those games stand apart from other platformers; the mastery of your movement along with the geometry of the levels to bring yourself to the goal in the quickest time possible, in the most basic sense, which is why many felt that the 2d games until Mania felt subpar compared to the classics.

SRB2 is first and foremost a Sonic fangame, which is why so many beginners had trouble controlling Sonic when first playing the games. But this is a problem concerning the core engine of SRB2, which is why the developers (STjr) have been retooling the game. The main problem however is Sonic, or more-so his ability, the Thok. In a game where using your abilities to interact with the environment to increase your momentum is encouraged, having your main playable character give you "free speed on a silver platter" (the speed of the Thok is almost twice the speed of your max running speed!), it undermines the fundamentals of your game, which is only made worse by the fact that your platformer's level design punishes the player if they abuse its' unwieldiness by slamming you into a wall, spikes or to your death via a bottomless pit (not to say these punishments are a bad thing, it's only to prove the point that the power dynamic compared to the other characters' abilities is quite unbalanced). Especially so for the fact that almost all beginners will choose Sonic.

But to me and probably a lot of other players, calling the Thok simply "free speed" feels wrong. It feel like to me personally, there would be something lost if the Thok was removed without a clear answer of what Sonic's replacement ability will be, which STjr seems to be bothered by. Like maybe there is something more to it that should be further looked into.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I finally get to the part where I discuss and answer the question I asked at the beginning of what as a discussion on one ability that soon became an essay on the fundamental issues of SRB2, or more specifically Sonic in it, so I guess we looped back to talking about the Thok.
This is pretty much the TL;DR section of my reply.

Besides just giving you a boost of speed, the Thok's most apparent ability is that it propels the player directly forward from where the camera is facing. The most obvious benefit from this is the fact that, for example, you want to make a turn while keeping your momentum, you could use the Thok and make a quick turn.
The Thok's second usage is with the environment, where if you use the Thok into an upwards slope, you gain a good amount of upwards momentum, which is most useful when you want to clear a gap or cross quickly onto a higher platform while, yet again, keeping or even increasing your momentum. You can do the same thing on Badniks or destructible objects, giving the player an easier access to a Badnik bounce.
Both of these are incredibly useful to obtain and preserve momentum, a core (or the core) aspect of classic Sonic games.

And interestingly, another move from another Sonic game does this: the Drop Dash from Sonic Mania.
To use the Drop Dash, you jump in the air and hold the jump button down to charge a midair Spindash, which gets released when you touch the ground, giving you an increase in speed. If you are moving faster midair, or hold the charge for longer, the amount of speed gained increases. And, just like rolling, when you use the move on a downwards slope, it is more effective, giving you more speed.

Sounds like the same move, right? Almost makes me wonder why STjr haven't just--you know--replaced the Thok with the Drop Dash?
But if you were paying attention, these moves actually work differently. Firstly, the Thok, in its most basic sense is instantaneous and increases your speed almost to twice your max running speed in SRB2, while the Drop Dash, in its most basic sense, has to be held until you touch the ground, and increases your speed to your max running speed, unless charged for a certain amount of time. Also, the Thok is a midair move, where if you use it onto an upwards slope, it increases your upwards, or vertical momentum, while if you use the Drop Dash on a downwards slope, it increases your forwards, or horizontal momentum.

Perhaps, if both moves were added to Sonic's moveset and made to behave more similarly, in the fact that both only give the player their max running speed (unless they are moving faster than so), it will make Sonic a character that dominates horizontal movement, unlike Tails or Knuckles who dominate vertical movement and traversal respectively. This will only be a better change, when in future updates of SRB2, maps are designed with more verticality in mind to compliment the momentum physics-based engine the game will have, where Sonic won't be able to easily access vertical pathways but stronger in horizontal ones. Implementation could also be taken in the other direction, as while Sonic can't as easily gain vertical momentum like Tails or Knuckles, his superior control over his own momentum (and I repeat--momentum, not speed), and will allow him to control himself in the air better after launching himself off of a slope to land on a farther or higher platform.

The real TL;DR: In the end, I feel like focusing Sonic's moveset more on momentum, not speed will make him a better pick for beginner players, as his moveset will not be as useful as Tails or Knuckles unless you learn to use your environment to gain speed, which is the fundamental aspect of classic Sonic games. With my idea of giving Sonic either a modified Thok & Drop Dash or some new ability that combines the two's main attributes I mentioned, Sonic having a (primarily) momentum-based move makes the most sense in a momentum-based series.
Giving beginners this OP ability (compared to the other characters) with no skill ceiling will leave them confused, especially in the future where SRB2 will focus more on gathering and keeping your momentum in a level.


(Did I get everything right?)
 
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