How do you feel about the thok being replaced?
- Thread starter Metal Snick Productions
- Start date
Power Spin was a design experiment we were working with for a little while, and it was designed to try and make Sonic a more well-rounded and interesting character, where use of the ability in different situations could be beneficial for platforming, speedrunning and combat. It's a pretty significant deviation from the thok, which I don't think is a bad thing, but I think it's understandable that a lot of people associate the thok with SRB2's identity culturally and as a gameplay mechanic. At this point I think we moved on from the ability in internal discussions and it's pretty unlikely that it's going to appear in final. We still have been looking at potential alterations to Sonic's ability for 2.3, though I think philosophically at this point we're looking for a natural evolution of Sonic's mechanics rather than a complete overhaul.
NightWind
Ringslinger and SRB2 Battle player
please explain what lol
InfernoMelon
Honwy is cooilo dudey
Uh... a few questions
1. What's a Power Spin
2. Can y'all at least added a simple button in the options menu for switching back to the Thok, when y'all actually remove it
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Just out of curiosity, is STJr taking how Sonic (and the characters in general, really) interacts with the terrain to build up speed compared to the 2D games into consideration? Not just in regards to the double jump ability but in a general sense. In the classic 2D games, speed is built up while in the spin state and can be maintained by skillful maneuvering through the levels (such as how you move in the air, landing on things to bounce off of or onto downward slopes) aside from when the level design wants the player to slow down.
NightWind
Ringslinger and SRB2 Battle player
This actually would be the perfect solution. Not only this would please all the players but would be good for modding
(sorry ui designers for hurting your eyes)
If the option to change the character's moveset was implemented, it could help players making alternate character movesets but also not force everyone on the server to play with that addon. I remember seeing a discussion about Tails getting a change on the way he flies (IIRC this was for accessibility reasons), instead of pressing jump multiple time just like the classic way, you would only need hold down the jump button and since there may have player who'd prefer the older style, this would be a great way to also make them happy.
Contrary to popular impression, we really haven't committed to that many universal changes yet, but I've put in a lot of work on the unlockable cast to make them flow better. Don't want to go into detail, but I think "schmovement" as a design philosophy has definitely been helpful in fleshing each of them out as characters, making them more approachable but also more interesting to speedrun.
Suspicioustoad
"Grieving, not grooving :("
To preface, for the past few days I couldn't really figure out how to communicate the point I wanted to make regarding the issue of the thok itself, so apologies if this post is messy as heck and not communicated clearly and well (after typing this out for a good few hours, I'm basically brain dead from how to format this and how nuanced talking about the thok is and I really just want to finalize this post. I basically thoked my brain into a paste). Also, apologies if I have happened to misinterpret what someone has said, mainly Time Gear. If I happened to misinterpret something, please correct me.
I'm going to have to partially disagree with Time Gear about the level design itself being detrimental to the thok and how all players would be naturally discouraged to even bother using it; I don't think the problem itself is the level design to be frank nor do I believe that the thok is as punishing or unintuitive to new players as mentioned, but rather, the reason why new players are unsatisfied with the thok is because its designed right now to be more for use after running the campaign for the first time by its design. After all, Sonic is going to be the character that most players are going to choose first and I think with how thok is implemented in him that its actually designed to not be a fully viable tool for beginner players for the first playthrough because as it is, Sonic's design in the game right now is extremely good in terms of forcing the player to learn the basic toolset that they are given to complete the levels (mainly how their speed and physics work; they are forced to contend to the platforming challenges presented to them) since SRB2 controls extremely differently compared to other 3D sonic titles than what beginners are going to be used to and the instant burst of speed that the thok brings doesn't benefit a new player right off the bat both in terms of learning how to control the game and that the instant burst of speed combined with the lack of skill in controlling the game can and will inevitably lead to disaster. That isn't to say that the thok is completely useless to a beginner player nor is it fully discouraged however. The thok, unlike the sonic 3 insta-shield, clearly communicates what it can do right off the bat when the player starts using it for the first time (its basically a burst of speed forward) which allows for beginners to at least use it for certain sections of all maps and understand the proper use of the function after using it for a while (that spamming it in all moments is not a viable use of the tool due to the possibility of running into hazards and pits. That smarter, intuitave, and more calculated use of the tool is more beneficial). Then, when beginner players are done with the main campaign, with now having map knowledge, skills with the default toolset provided, and with the curiosity of what one can do with such a burst of speed against certain obstacles and the knowledge of the proper use of the thok, players are going to be more naturally drawn to experiment with the thok in order to push the game further (to be honest, I disagree that the thok is as punishing as what time gear makes it out to be where players would just not use it. People are going to see that burst of speed and naturally try to experiment with it after a first playthrough. I don't think many players would be organically taught to never ever use the thok just because they fell a lot of times into a pit or obstacle. A tool that can give a burst of speed and prior map knowledge that one can test the thok out on is basically more than enough incentive for beginner players to experiment with the thok). Basically, thok is more designed for players who at least have a solid foundation of the SRB2 physics and how they control in it which requires a least a full playthrough before players can get to that point, which I believe is the main problem since players in a first playthrough as sonic are still trying to get used to how SRB2 feels, so naturally, players are going to be disuaded from using thok to its full potential right away because, well, they can't yet. To basically sum it up, sonic is designed to be a beginner character that forces players to use the bare minimum tools before they try using the thok as the thok is more or less gated via skill that a beginner wouldn't have yet. Sonic and his thok are basically built to be replayed and not as a pure first run character.
The main problem with the thok is that by design, its not built for beginners, which combined with the levels not allowing enough experimentation with both the basekit and the thok, will force a lot of beginner players away from using it if at all in their first playthrough. Speaking of levels...
I did mention that I partially disagreed that the level design was the sole problem. The level design itself the way I see it is basically a subset of the bigger problem that I have presented. The reason I only partially disagreed with level design being the issue is that designing levels to allow players to fully utilize the thok is a good idea that would alleviate some of the issues that are present with the thok in general. I do think that SRB2 would benefit with at least some levels where it allowed for thok experimentation (basically sandbox like levels) as well as getting used to the main tool set more. Theoretically, if designed right, it would at least have players be more used to how SRB2 controls and would theoretically allow for players to know the basic usage of the thok right off the bat without gating it to a second playthrough (it wouldn't affect replayability either). So while I do disagree with the notion that level design is the sole problem, I agree that having better level design suited for learning how to use the thok would alleviate some of the problems with the thok. Then again, level design is not as easy said and done, so I'm not sure how well you can alleviate the issue solely with just level design alone.
To finish off, I will note that not everyone is going to replay sonic after their first playthrough and may not want to bother to experiment with him after their experience with the thok. I'm just saying that with the way sonic is right now, he's designed to be essentially a replay character with his thok currently.
And while unrelated, I do like the idea of different pathways being more faster and with risk, but yeah.
Also, another unrelated note, but Time Gear, you mentioned an elevator shaft in Techno Hill Zone that a player had to navigate in order to turn on the power to use the elevator. The only time you go into an elevator shaft and do just that is Egg Rock Zone act 2. There aren't any elevators that require you to do that in Techno Hill Zone afaik.
Who knew thok could have this much nuance.
I'm going to have to partially disagree with Time Gear about the level design itself being detrimental to the thok and how all players would be naturally discouraged to even bother using it; I don't think the problem itself is the level design to be frank nor do I believe that the thok is as punishing or unintuitive to new players as mentioned, but rather, the reason why new players are unsatisfied with the thok is because its designed right now to be more for use after running the campaign for the first time by its design. After all, Sonic is going to be the character that most players are going to choose first and I think with how thok is implemented in him that its actually designed to not be a fully viable tool for beginner players for the first playthrough because as it is, Sonic's design in the game right now is extremely good in terms of forcing the player to learn the basic toolset that they are given to complete the levels (mainly how their speed and physics work; they are forced to contend to the platforming challenges presented to them) since SRB2 controls extremely differently compared to other 3D sonic titles than what beginners are going to be used to and the instant burst of speed that the thok brings doesn't benefit a new player right off the bat both in terms of learning how to control the game and that the instant burst of speed combined with the lack of skill in controlling the game can and will inevitably lead to disaster. That isn't to say that the thok is completely useless to a beginner player nor is it fully discouraged however. The thok, unlike the sonic 3 insta-shield, clearly communicates what it can do right off the bat when the player starts using it for the first time (its basically a burst of speed forward) which allows for beginners to at least use it for certain sections of all maps and understand the proper use of the function after using it for a while (that spamming it in all moments is not a viable use of the tool due to the possibility of running into hazards and pits. That smarter, intuitave, and more calculated use of the tool is more beneficial). Then, when beginner players are done with the main campaign, with now having map knowledge, skills with the default toolset provided, and with the curiosity of what one can do with such a burst of speed against certain obstacles and the knowledge of the proper use of the thok, players are going to be more naturally drawn to experiment with the thok in order to push the game further (to be honest, I disagree that the thok is as punishing as what time gear makes it out to be where players would just not use it. People are going to see that burst of speed and naturally try to experiment with it after a first playthrough. I don't think many players would be organically taught to never ever use the thok just because they fell a lot of times into a pit or obstacle. A tool that can give a burst of speed and prior map knowledge that one can test the thok out on is basically more than enough incentive for beginner players to experiment with the thok). Basically, thok is more designed for players who at least have a solid foundation of the SRB2 physics and how they control in it which requires a least a full playthrough before players can get to that point, which I believe is the main problem since players in a first playthrough as sonic are still trying to get used to how SRB2 feels, so naturally, players are going to be disuaded from using thok to its full potential right away because, well, they can't yet. To basically sum it up, sonic is designed to be a beginner character that forces players to use the bare minimum tools before they try using the thok as the thok is more or less gated via skill that a beginner wouldn't have yet. Sonic and his thok are basically built to be replayed and not as a pure first run character.
The main problem with the thok is that by design, its not built for beginners, which combined with the levels not allowing enough experimentation with both the basekit and the thok, will force a lot of beginner players away from using it if at all in their first playthrough. Speaking of levels...
I did mention that I partially disagreed that the level design was the sole problem. The level design itself the way I see it is basically a subset of the bigger problem that I have presented. The reason I only partially disagreed with level design being the issue is that designing levels to allow players to fully utilize the thok is a good idea that would alleviate some of the issues that are present with the thok in general. I do think that SRB2 would benefit with at least some levels where it allowed for thok experimentation (basically sandbox like levels) as well as getting used to the main tool set more. Theoretically, if designed right, it would at least have players be more used to how SRB2 controls and would theoretically allow for players to know the basic usage of the thok right off the bat without gating it to a second playthrough (it wouldn't affect replayability either). So while I do disagree with the notion that level design is the sole problem, I agree that having better level design suited for learning how to use the thok would alleviate some of the problems with the thok. Then again, level design is not as easy said and done, so I'm not sure how well you can alleviate the issue solely with just level design alone.
To finish off, I will note that not everyone is going to replay sonic after their first playthrough and may not want to bother to experiment with him after their experience with the thok. I'm just saying that with the way sonic is right now, he's designed to be essentially a replay character with his thok currently.
And while unrelated, I do like the idea of different pathways being more faster and with risk, but yeah.
Also, another unrelated note, but Time Gear, you mentioned an elevator shaft in Techno Hill Zone that a player had to navigate in order to turn on the power to use the elevator. The only time you go into an elevator shaft and do just that is Egg Rock Zone act 2. There aren't any elevators that require you to do that in Techno Hill Zone afaik.
Who knew thok could have this much nuance.
beakymagma
ryder's strongest soldier
This whole reply seems passive-aggressive and dismissive. There's so much wrong with this, I really wonder what the SRB2 community would be like if we never found out the Thok was being changed.
Julia
The only SRB2 and Touhou fan ever to exist lmao
Turnabout Thok
Ace Dragon
Member
I have not read the entire thread, but I am of the opinion that the Thok is iconic to the game and helps separate SRB2 from the many generic fangames that you can find online. It should stay.
Though that does not leave out the possibility of refining the way each character handles. For instance, the Thok itself also being from a time where the game did not have slopes (so its function is not the smoothest on rugged terrain and detailed level geometry, in which we will now get a lot more of because of UDMF).
Though that does not leave out the possibility of refining the way each character handles. For instance, the Thok itself also being from a time where the game did not have slopes (so its function is not the smoothest on rugged terrain and detailed level geometry, in which we will now get a lot more of because of UDMF).
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Perhaps. It's been about a year since I've played through the main campaign, so I could be forgiven for mistaking the two zones given how similar they are. If I am mistaken about which zone the elevator shaft is in, it's a minor continuity error in the grand scheme of things.
I like Sonic as a vanilla character that forces you to play the stage as intended. Tails, Knuckles, Metal Sonic, and Fang all have abilities that let them violate intended stage sequencing. A character who can't break sequence ever is a good baseline for both stage designers and players.
For custom level packs, I've considered locking all characters other than Sonic at the beginning of the game, so unlocking a new character provides a new-game-plus experience where you interact with a stage differently.
For custom level packs, I've considered locking all characters other than Sonic at the beginning of the game, so unlocking a new character provides a new-game-plus experience where you interact with a stage differently.
PencilVoid
Circuit Enthusiast
An option to change Sonic's ability is practically the same as adding another character. Doesn't make things any easier for level designers, just gives them another ability to design around.
NightWind
Ringslinger and SRB2 Battle player
What would you even need to do to make a level designed around thok? Thok is pretty much an ability that allows you to just complete normal paths but faster, current levels are beatable without having to Thok even once, even SRB2 devs have said that, and I extremely doubt that someone will make an level that would need that much vertical movement or to make characters like Amy, Fang and Metal to follow their exact path from beginning to end.
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time gear
Eternity in an hour
Ideally, the design mentality would be much less "You MUST use thok to beat the level" and more "If you use thok, it will make certain sections easier or reward skillful use with hidden secrets". Sorta like the Drop Dash and Insta-Shield, the level design in Sonic 3 and Sonic Mania was never made in such a way as to outright require using these, but you are rewarded for using them correctly.
As for alt characters like Amy, etc. Ideally they would be able to to stick entirely to the main path path from start to end as well, with the only consequence of not taking their unique pathway sections being missed out goodies and a slower clear time.
Thok has the unique attribute of giving Sonic a moderate amount of speed right off the bat. It's much slower than the potential speed you could obtain over time, but it puts Sonic ahead of his competition in a race. This is the easiest part of designing levels around, as alternative pathways could be made as shortcuts for characters to take to progress through the level more on pace with Sonic despite not being as fast. It would still take quite of bit of testing to see how long it takes skilled Sonic players to clear certain portions of levels, whether anything in the alt paths is posing too much of a hang up for alt characters, etc.
While Thok is inherently a horizontal movement tool, it can reward skillful use with vertical movement in the form of bounces. This could be taken advantage of to place goodies like shields, 1-ups, etc. out of reach of Sonic under normal circumstances, but if he makes skillful use of thok bouncing he could clear gaps normally too large for him or even reach a ledge that's usually too high.