How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

You're missing the point again. Once again, I agree with this in principle but the problem is one of execution, not presence. The levels are built in a way that the thok only gets more and more punished with time. While a skilled player can work around this by using the thok to their advantage, a new player doesn't have that luxury because they haven't built that skill yet. When their experience using the thok is that it gets them killed more often than not, the lesson that teaches them is that they shouldn't use it.

Think about it like this: Imagine a game with a double jump. You tab the jump button a second time, you jump again midair for some added height. Pretty simple maneuver, lots of potential for nuance if applied skillfully. Many, many games have used this exact ability to great effect, so clearly double jumping isn't "bad", right?

Now imagine a game in which many of the levels are designed with instant kill spikes above the player that a single jump usually won't reach but that double jumping is often punished by, and double jump is largely entirely optional for progression. It's not a ceiling of spikes, they're placed in a way that they can be avoided by skilled players and skilled players can even use the double jump to great effect, enhancing their progression through the level. New players don't have that same level of skill however, and so they find that as they get deeper and deeper into the game and things keep getting harder, the double jump is proving to just be a bad option to them.

This is basically SRB2's thok. New players get punished for using it severely enough combined with progression generally not requiring it that the lesson they are learning is not to use it almost ever. This creates the perception that the move is bad, when it's not the move that is the problem. They can't be expected to get better with it naturally over time when the game is actively discouraging using it like this, and so us veterans who are already good with it are naturally advantaged when it comes to being able to see the upsides to keeping it.

Would you like to name a few examples of the game discouraging thok usage, because I can't think of any place or moment where the game was actively telling you not to thok here

 

[SonicHacker141]

honestly, i'd rather have thok as an option in-game. replacing it in 2.3 is just messed up
and also, the thok has been for too long to the fact that it's way too iconic to be removed

 

[time gear]

Would you like to name a few examples of the game discouraging thok usage, because I can't think of any place or moment where the game was actively telling you not to thok here

It's going to differ based on player skill. We veterans aren't going to encounter this as much because we are good with the thok. For unskilled players however, these moments are all over the place. The first noteworthy one is the elevator shaft in Techno Hill that I've been bringing up. You must navigate through this elevator shaft to get into the room that houses the button you need to press to turn on the power, unlocking access to the elevator to progress through the stage. this is the first time that trying to recklessly thok your way through without really knowing what you're doing is likely to get you killed, as falling in this section can be quite deadly and you're not particularly likely to land on the elevator in the middle of the shaft using the speed that the thok gives you.

There are also many other less severely punishing moments in Techno Hill that don't necessarily kill the player for thokking and thus overdoing their jumps, but they do hurt or inconvenience the player for doing so by having them go flying into an electric floor or into the purple goop. While not as actively killing the player, these moments can start to reinforce the mentality within a new players mind that using the thok is a bit inconvenient at best.

Castle Eggman is the first time we start to see platforming sections that look like little islands of traversable terrain suspended above chasms of death pit, littered with obstacles for you to carefully dodge around to get across. Thokking at a bad moment during a jump can send you flying off the edge and down to your death, something unlikely to happen to someone who knows what they are doing but likely to happen to players who are still learning the ropes. For new players, Castle Eggman is where things really start to slow down to a crawl as you start having to much more carefully avoid the hazards in your path. The thok is a bit unwieldy for new players here, as while skilled players see it as a way to clear larger gaps and as a safety net, new players see it as a cannon that could shoot them off the edge or into a swinging mace ball at any moment.

Also introduced in Castle Eggman are the enemies with shields. Thokking into these shields can send the player flying in a seemingly random direction based on how they collide, which can send a player who is too reckless falling to their death.

Arid Canyon is largely more of the same, especially in regards to the ropes suspended over bottomless pits that you must patiently wait to cross. Skilled players can thok their way from rope to rope to clear these sections rapidly, but new players are likely to miss and get sent cascading down to their death below. The boss, Fang, also actively punishes new players for using the thok during the second phase of his fight by sending them flying off the train and to their death after collision with him. Or, the player can just be too reckless and thok off the train by accident without touching Fang at all.

By the time you get to Red Volcano as a new player, you've likely already learned that thok is a very risky move to use, because it's probably the biggest contributing factor to the low lives counter you are likely to have by this point. Now in addition to bottomless pits, you have lava that hurts to touch, eats your rings on contact, and kills you when you have none. This is paired with the Pterabytes, which will pick up reckless players and drop them into the lava. For a new player, slow and steady wins the race here and you're very likely to spend upwards of 15-20 minutes in the level just carefully avoiding everything hazardous while a more skilled player can fly through the level and clear it in ~4 minutes.

Egg Rock is by far the most harsh with its use of careful platforming that can be punishing to reckless new players who don't know how to use the thok properly, and this is especially an issue since the lesson new players have been taught by now is that using it makes things harder, gets them killed, and isn't needed to progress. Yet again, the new players progression through the zone which is likely to include a few game overs is going to be more carefully avoiding anything dangerous while trying not to thok into a pit or lasers or etc. The race against Metal Sonic rewards skillful play with the thok, but can easily punish unskilled play the same way as any other level and this is with the added pressure of being under a time limit. Then you get to the fight against him and thokking into him after making him vulnerable is likely to rocket you off the elevator at high speeds to your doom or into the electric fence if you're not careful about your aim.

Brak Eggman does the same thing, unskilled players thokking into him while he's vulnerable will likely go rocketing off the edge of the arena to their doom.

This isn't even every single moment in detail, and I've already described a significant chunk of the game. While for most games this would basically boil down to "Git gud", the problem here is that new players aren't given any reason to at all. The lesson they are actively being taught by the game is that they don't need to get good with the thok because they can succeed without it and using it is likely to get them killed. Their final impressions after beating the main campaign at this point is often that they don't like the thok because of how hazardous it was to them in their playthrough. This is all too often the case with people playing through the game for the first time and streaming it and/or making a review about it. New players don't like the thok because it's bad for their health and they don't really need it.

This, ultimately, is the reason why STJR has gotten the impression that the thok is bad and needs to be replaced. They're listening to the opinions of these people playing the game for the first time and coming to the conclusion that the thok is problematic. And in all fairness, the criticism itself is fair, the problem is that too many people are misunderstanding the problem surrounding the thok, blaming the thok itself when it's the situations new players are being thrust into with it that are the real issue.

The player should be thrust into level design early on that teaches them the merits and usefulness of the thok so that later into the game they can make skillful use of it that doesn't screw them over. Many of the examples I've given in this reply would be much less problematic if new players had been taught by the game to use thok properly leading up to these moments than they actually are in reality.

 

[LegoLoco7]

Wow, that's a lot, but I read it. I understand why, but it's crazy to me how much discussion can arise over a game.

 

[Sls64LGamingBro]

Wow, that's a lot, but I read it. I understand why, but it's crazy to me how much discussion can arise over a game.

I guess that's because this community have started in the 2000s when the mb came in, must have been a history of the sonic robo blast 2 community.


EDIT: Mispelling there

 

[time gear]

I guess that's because this community have started in the 2000s when the mb came him, must have been a history of the sonic robo blast 2 community.

Pretty much. I wasn't around at the very start, I joined the MB in 2008 and I started playing the game around 2006 or 2007. There's plenty of others who have been around as long or longer than me and many many who have been around that long but don't use the forum. Most of the existing playerbase likes the thok while most of the newer playerbase who was introduced to the game with 2.1 or 2.2 don't.

 

[Moony]

gonna input my own opinion here finally
while yes i do love the thok i'm sort of all for the ability being replaced as long as the thok becomes an option for all the players who prefer the thok. i'm not gonna argue about why it should or shouldn't be replaced, it's my opinion, after all.
kk bye now

 

[ova pico]

honestly, i don't get most of the reasons for the thok being removed, but as long as they make some significant changes to the power spin, like making the jump thok a wee bit faster, or making it momentum based (as that seems to be a common complaint for the thok being removed), or making the thok a separate option (which had been explained by some of the highest devs in srb2 that this will not happen since it would be developer hell)/making it momentum based (sort of like xmomentum's thok, where it begins slow to non-existent so newbies won't fall off or get flung into space, while oldies and players that were good with the thok can still get that sweet sweet speed)
sonic's pure idea is about gaining speed through skill, so if you can get fast, you get a fast ability, what i see in the current iteration of the power spin is just slow, with not much else, aside from the wall climb ability giving sonic some vertical height, and sonic was also intended to be the "core experience", where you experienced all the work the developers made on the levels, thus the lack of an ability until sonic 3, which even then the ability didn't do much (thus sonic's abilities mostly being worse than tails and knuckles' abilities, except for in sonic 2 (1992) for obvious reasons)
if you gave sonic a tails-esque (over exaggeration, i know) or knuckles-esque (same here) ability for sonic, that kinda takes away a lot of the hard work the mappers for srb2 did for the game (although the gifs do not portray it as the worst thing possible)
mapping to another button, such as spin, could work as well, but in my opinion mapping the thok to spin, or a custom button, kind of kills the feel of srb2's other characters... a thing which the power spin seems to do as well, another ability to replace the thok could also be the rebound dash, as it does about 2/3 of what the power spin does, (with the momentum changes that could apply to the vanilla thok, of course)
what i'm trying to say here is, the thok really doesn't deserve to be removed in my opinion, it's almost as old as greenflower zone, and that level never got removed (then again, greenflower zone never sent you flying into pits) but... i'll try to tolerate a new ability for a while before switching immediately to that lua thok example mod
then again, i'm not a dev, a guy who has any contributions to the game or community, or a playtester... what do i know?
competitive gamemodes will never be the same
i am the antithesis of character limits across the world
please shove anything you don't agree with, and i'll try to understand & reply to them as much as i physically can, i'm apparently the thok debate guy now

 

[FutureSon]

If they do remove it that will kill the game and make some ppl be mad and some confused, Honestly they can do what ever they want but they can't take out the memories of the thok and its glory

 

[Moony]

If they do remove it that will kill the game and make some ppl be mad and some confused, Honestly they can do what ever they want but they can't take out the memories of the thok and its glory

i wouldn't say removing the thok would straight up kill srb2 but it'll definitely make some people mad

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

It's going to differ based on player skill. We veterans aren't going to encounter this as much because we are good with the thok. For unskilled players however, these moments are all over the place. The first noteworthy one is the elevator shaft in Techno Hill that I've been bringing up. You must navigate through this elevator shaft to get into the room that houses the button you need to press to turn on the power, unlocking access to the elevator to progress through the stage. this is the first time that trying to recklessly thok your way through without really knowing what you're doing is likely to get you killed, as falling in this section can be quite deadly and you're not particularly likely to land on the elevator in the middle of the shaft using the speed that the thok gives you.

There are also many other less severely punishing moments in Techno Hill that don't necessarily kill the player for thokking and thus overdoing their jumps, but they do hurt or inconvenience the player for doing so by having them go flying into an electric floor or into the purple goop. While not as actively killing the player, these moments can start to reinforce the mentality within a new players mind that using the thok is a bit inconvenient at best.

Castle Eggman is the first time we start to see platforming sections that look like little islands of traversable terrain suspended above chasms of death pit, littered with obstacles for you to carefully dodge around to get across. Thokking at a bad moment during a jump can send you flying off the edge and down to your death, something unlikely to happen to someone who knows what they are doing but likely to happen to players who are still learning the ropes. For new players, Castle Eggman is where things really start to slow down to a crawl as you start having to much more carefully avoid the hazards in your path. The thok is a bit unwieldy for new players here, as while skilled players see it as a way to clear larger gaps and as a safety net, new players see it as a cannon that could shoot them off the edge or into a swinging mace ball at any moment.

Also introduced in Castle Eggman are the enemies with shields. Thokking into these shields can send the player flying in a seemingly random direction based on how they collide, which can send a player who is too reckless falling to their death.

Arid Canyon is largely more of the same, especially in regards to the ropes suspended over bottomless pits that you must patiently wait to cross. Skilled players can thok their way from rope to rope to clear these sections rapidly, but new players are likely to miss and get sent cascading down to their death below. The boss, Fang, also actively punishes new players for using the thok during the second phase of his fight by sending them flying off the train and to their death after collision with him. Or, the player can just be too reckless and thok off the train by accident without touching Fang at all.

By the time you get to Red Volcano as a new player, you've likely already learned that thok is a very risky move to use, because it's probably the biggest contributing factor to the low lives counter you are likely to have by this point. Now in addition to bottomless pits, you have lava that hurts to touch, eats your rings on contact, and kills you when you have none. This is paired with the Pterabytes, which will pick up reckless players and drop them into the lava. For a new player, slow and steady wins the race here and you're very likely to spend upwards of 15-20 minutes in the level just carefully avoiding everything hazardous while a more skilled player can fly through the level and clear it in ~4 minutes.

Egg Rock is by far the most harsh with its use of careful platforming that can be punishing to reckless new players who don't know how to use the thok properly, and this is especially an issue since the lesson new players have been taught by now is that using it makes things harder, gets them killed, and isn't needed to progress. Yet again, the new players progression through the zone which is likely to include a few game overs is going to be more carefully avoiding anything dangerous while trying not to thok into a pit or lasers or etc. The race against Metal Sonic rewards skillful play with the thok, but can easily punish unskilled play the same way as any other level and this is with the added pressure of being under a time limit. Then you get to the fight against him and thokking into him after making him vulnerable is likely to rocket you off the elevator at high speeds to your doom or into the electric fence if you're not careful about your aim.

Brak Eggman does the same thing, unskilled players thokking into him while he's vulnerable will likely go rocketing off the edge of the arena to their doom.

This isn't even every single moment in detail, and I've already described a significant chunk of the game. While for most games this would basically boil down to "Git gud", the problem here is that new players aren't given any reason to at all. The lesson they are actively being taught by the game is that they don't need to get good with the thok because they can succeed without it and using it is likely to get them killed. Their final impressions after beating the main campaign at this point is often that they don't like the thok because of how hazardous it was to them in their playthrough. This is all too often the case with people playing through the game for the first time and streaming it and/or making a review about it. New players don't like the thok because it's bad for their health and they don't really need it.

This, ultimately, is the reason why STJR has gotten the impression that the thok is bad and needs to be replaced. They're listening to the opinions of these people playing the game for the first time and coming to the conclusion that the thok is problematic. And in all fairness, the criticism itself is fair, the problem is that too many people are misunderstanding the problem surrounding the thok, blaming the thok itself when it's the situations new players are being thrust into with it that are the real issue.

The player should be thrust into level design early on that teaches them the merits and usefulness of the thok so that later into the game they can make skillful use of it that doesn't screw them over. Many of the examples I've given in this reply would be much less problematic if new players had been taught by the game to use thok properly leading up to these moments than they actually are in reality.

The levels don't teach you how to use the thok, you have to teach yourself how to use the thok, and if you automatically deduce that the thok is bad because you don't want to learn how to use it in conjunction with the levels, well that sounds like a you issue, its not the thoks or the games fault that you don't want to learn. I would be singing a completely different tune if it wasn't for the fact that there's 2 other characters to play as one of them is the ACUTAL beginner player character. Its even stated in 2.1 that sonic isn't for beginners, and I honestly feel like they should just bring that back instead of replacing sonic's main ability with a kid friendly one. What im trying to say is that it is true that SRB2 has alot, and I mean ALOT of sections where you have to take your time the first way through, once you learn how to do those sections, it's your choice to keep trying to do them using the thok to go faster and faster. The reward? It's the satisfaction of you blasting through this once, hard zone/section with a ability you couldn't use well. Everyone started out as a unskilled new player, and overtime, we become better at using the thok. So why can't these new players do the same? Put in a bit of time and effort and learn how to use it like we have? Why do you make a ability purely to negate the learning process that new players need to go through, because they are messing up and can't use the current one like everyone before them? This new ability is only going to make people that have actually played a sonic and put work onto him mad and all the "new players" are just going to be handheld because they can't get better and don't want to get better or they can't simply pick another option and let everyone else have fun.

 

[RoboFanatic]

I feel AWFUL, one of my favorite things to do on SRB2, is gone, it breaks my heart completely.

 

[time gear]

The levels don't teach you how to use the thok, you have to teach yourself how to use the thok, and if you automatically deduce that the thok is bad because you don't want to learn how to use it in conjunction with the levels, well that sounds like a you issue,

That's not how good game design works. If the player isn't given a "silent tutorial" by the level design, and isn't given any incentive to learn how to use a move, they're not going to use it. This has been the basic fundamentals of game design since all the way back on the NES with the likes of Super Mario Bros and Mega Man and has been an industry standard ever since. The odds are, most of your favorite games are designed this way. SRB2 is no exception, although it doesn't teach the thok well enough to prepare new players for what's to come, GFZ is filled to the brim with tiny little silent tutorials that teach the player different aspects about the game such as the functions of the various shields, how high the player can jump, etc.

Additionally, nobody is "automatically" deducing that the thok is bad. They're coming to that conclusion after spending time with it and often after completing a playthrough. STJR wouldn't be considering removing the thok because little timmy somewhere died once on stream and threw a hissy fit. They're considering it because of the myriad of new players of all ages who are giving the thok a proper chance but are coming out the other end of their playthroughs not liking it.

I would be singing a completely different tune if it wasn't for the fact that there's 2 other characters to play as one of them is the ACUTAL beginner player character. Its even stated in 2.1 that sonic isn't for beginners

People are going to want to begin with Sonic regardless. He's the title character. The line of reasoning you are straying into here is called "Gatekeeping". If people want their first playthrough to be with Sonic, why shouldn't it be with Sonic? Instead of following and supporting the line of logic of "Sonic is the wrong choice for beginners" in any way or form, why not just make the level design in game actually play well with his moveset so that new players can actually enjoy using him? The original 2D games did this with Tails and Knuckles. Sonic was the the vanilla default experience the game was built around, but if you wanted to play with Tails or Knuckles you weren't outright punished for doing so. Knuckles was a little bit harder, but not unreasonably so.

and I honestly feel like they should just bring that back instead of replacing sonic's main ability with a kid friendly one.

Or they could just keep thok and make the level design teach it properly instead of punish it.

What im trying to say is that it is true that SRB2 has alot, and I mean ALOT of sections where you have to take your time the first way through, once you learn how to do those sections, it's your choice to keep trying to do them using the thok to go faster and faster. The reward? It's the satisfaction of you blasting through this once, hard zone/section with a ability you couldn't use well.

That's not how organic learning in video games works. Players aren't generally going to experiment with something that punishes them too often and that the game is actively teaching them they don't need to succeed. Even without the punishment aspect, many people never learned the Insta Shield in Sonic 3 for this exact reason. The game never gives incentive to play around with it, so most people never really got the hang of it. It's especially going to be true for anything which punishes new players more than it rewards them.

Everyone started out as a unskilled new player, and overtime, we become better at using the thok. So why can't these new players do the same?

Because we had the advantage and luxury of starting out with a cast of levels that aren't littered with death traps, and there were only a few of them. We had to pad out our experience with level mods, and even those back in the day didn't largely spam death traps everywhere. Levels in SRB2 were mostly movement playgrounds, so we grew better at movement over time. New players are barely going to have spent time in GFZ and THZ before they start getting more severely punished by the level design for reckless thokking, which directly tells the player it's too risky to experiment. Halted experimentation means halted skill growth. Natural growth happens when the player feels like death is their own fault and they see obvious untapped potential to their moveset they have yet to master. When they feel like a move is killing them because it demands too much control out of them, the default human response is to grow frustrated with it and not bother with it.

 

[Moony]

can we like not argue over a move that launches you like a missile being removed

 

[SaneRedX]

Yeah, it's kinda getting stupid now

 

[tabu]

Now instead of launching like a missile you can...launch like a missile but only with the spin or drop dash. Apparently Sonic isn't supposed to be able to launch like a missile now and apparently rolling off a cliff instead of thokking off a cliff fixes the 'falling off cliffs' issue, which is for some reason now an issue in a 16-bit inspired platform game.

I don't get it.

 

[Mystyc Cheez]

There's a good reason this topic has gone on for so long. We're arguing about the future of the game. Is the game going to remain what it has been or become a completely different experience?

 

[Sls64LGamingBro]

More mostly, this is just getting off. One of are things is talking about is the thok and now this is a long topic with 15 pages already, that's more worser. Also this theard should be down already by now, it's just worse to watch us arguing then leaving this topic be. So can't we just leave this topic and move on without no issue in this theard?

 

[beakymagma]

Even though my mind will never be changed, this whole argument is getting out of hand. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

That's not how good game design works. If the player isn't given a "silent tutorial" by the level design, and isn't given any incentive to learn how to use a move, they're not going to use it. This has been the basic fundamentals of game design since all the way back on the NES with the likes of Super Mario Bros and Mega Man and has been an industry standard ever since. The odds are, most of your favorite games are designed this way. SRB2 is no exception, although it doesn't teach the thok well enough to prepare new players for what's to come, GFZ is filled to the brim with tiny little silent tutorials that teach the player different aspects about the game such as the functions of the various shields, how high the player can jump, etc.

Additionally, nobody is "automatically" deducing that the thok is bad. They're coming to that conclusion after spending time with it and often after completing a playthrough. STJR wouldn't be considering removing the thok because little timmy somewhere died once on stream and threw a hissy fit. They're considering it because of the myriad of new players of all ages who are giving the thok a proper chance but are coming out the other end of their playthroughs not liking it.

People are going to want to begin with Sonic regardless. He's the title character. The line of reasoning you are straying into here is called "Gatekeeping". If people want their first playthrough to be with Sonic, why shouldn't it be with Sonic? Instead of following and supporting the line of logic of "Sonic is the wrong choice for beginners" in any way or form, why not just make the level design in game actually play well with his moveset so that new players can actually enjoy using him? The original 2D games did this with Tails and Knuckles. Sonic was the the vanilla default experience the game was built around, but if you wanted to play with Tails or Knuckles you weren't outright punished for doing so. Knuckles was a little bit harder, but not unreasonably so.

Or they could just keep thok and make the level design teach it properly instead of punish it.

That's not how organic learning in video games works. Players aren't generally going to experiment with something that punishes them too often and that the game is actively teaching them they don't need to succeed. Even without the punishment aspect, many people never learned the Insta Shield in Sonic 3 for this exact reason. The game never gives incentive to play around with it, so most people never really got the hang of it. It's especially going to be true for anything which punishes new players more than it rewards them.

Because we had the advantage and luxury of starting out with a cast of levels that aren't littered with death traps, and there were only a few of them. We had to pad out our experience with level mods, and even those back in the day didn't largely spam death traps everywhere. Levels in SRB2 were mostly movement playgrounds, so we grew better at movement over time. New players are barely going to have spent time in GFZ and THZ before they start getting more severely punished by the level design for reckless thokking, which directly tells the player it's too risky to experiment. Halted experimentation means halted skill growth. Natural growth happens when the player feels like death is their own fault and they see obvious untapped potential to their moveset they have yet to master. When they feel like a move is killing them because it demands too much control out of them, the default human response is to grow frustrated with it and not bother with it.

1. there is, in fact a tutorial in srb2 that tells you that about the thok, and that should be enough.
2. like I said before, 2.1 SAYS that he isn't a good choice for beginners and it should have been stated here, also telling people to use a different character because they don't want to learn how to use the title character isn't gatekeeping, its simple common sense. just because he's the title character doesn't mean he should be for beginners, and using another character because you don't like his move set isn't punishing at all.
3. the constant "just change the level design so that you can learn how to thok" is... already in the game? that's what GFZ, THZ and DSZ are for, getting you used to the thok. So once you get to the rest of the zones, you can hopefully use it well enough with the things taught to you.
4. the game doesn't need to give you a cookie every time you decide to experiment with something in the game, and even then, if you experiment with the thok enough, you can beat levels faster anyways. just like if you experiment with the insta shield enough, you can beat boss quicker and even go right through projectiles.
5. when i was a kid, i played 2.1 and let me tell you. those were NOT playgrounds. i never got pasted CEZ due to how brutally unfair the level design was and i was uninterested in playing. 2.2 is more of a playground then we ever got. also, every single death that you thok into is 100% YOUR fault anyways, and I don't see how you can blame the thok for you double jumping when you knew it was a risky thing to do. If you get frustrated at THAT then that's just you issue and you shouldn't blame it on the game yourself