Mystic removal discussion - The good and the bad

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Sometime during the middle of this, Prime (who was also removed) attempted to dox me and one other user (who has also returned due to this news). He wasn't successful.

(I DO NOT HAVE A SCREENSHOT OF ME CONFRONTING HIM ABOUT THIS. Please, again, take this with a grain of salt.)

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What the fuck? Prime tried to dox you? As in, try to get as much info on you as possible? I thought he was a rather reasonable guy but holy shit. That's just fucking messed up.
 

back in #fireflame_network on esper. he was very nasty to me and i never really understood why.

but in the interest of *not* perpetuating callouts with no evidence, i would appreciate if you, again, take this with a grain of salt (i did not save screenshots of any of my convos back then as i'd completely moved on at this point), although it did happen to me and someone else. if this person would like to come forward about it they may, but that's not up to me and i respect their privacy
 
Jeez, the more I read, the more I feel like an oddball for not having a story to tell about Mystic.

Don't worry about it. I'm been around since... 2007(?) or so, and I'm even the first person to have replied to this thread, and yet I have literally nothing to say here.

I'm really happy for everyone who does, though. This all feels very cathartic. A thread like this could have turned out so much worse, but generally everyone is being very mature and clear. It warms my heart in a way, despite the subject matter.
 
With all these oldbies coming back, giving their perspective, and expressing their gratitude in reaction to Mystic's removal, it feels like a new era of SRB2 is about to open up.

I too welcome our new srb2 overlords :v
 
Don't worry about it. I'm been around since... 2007(?) or so, and I'm even the first person to have replied to this thread, and yet I have literally nothing to say here.

I'm really happy for everyone who does, though. This all feels very cathartic. A thread like this could have turned out so much worse, but generally everyone is being very mature and clear. It warms my heart in a way, despite the subject matter.
Heated arguments are overrated anyway. Isn't it better to talk like civil people for a change?
 
My experiences aren't as bad as others, but I've had my own run ins with Mystic, and the other staff a few times, though I doubt anyone here remembers me. I joined Srb2 back when 1.08 came out I was either 12 or 13 at the time as you can imagine being a teenager who wasn't very good at grammar I didn't survive long in #Srb2fun.

A few kicks and a ban later on irc and I eventually joined #Blaze which at the time was basically a home for people banned from #Srb2fun for various reasons. I went by the name of Lloyd there on irc. I pretty much only chatted in #Blaze, for a long time, until I eventually tried to get better at grammar and joined the MB. It didn't take long at all to get an infraction even though I was hoping I improved to an "acceptable level."

I don't remember the exact wording, because I was upset, and deleted the PM shortly after getting it, then I just avoided posting on the MB anywhere near as much. It was something of "You've received an infraction for your sub par grammar which is not up to our standards."

I never really understood why a community for a Sonic fangame of all things was so harsh to kids and new members at the time. Grammar is something that's never properly clicked with my brain no matter how much time I spent on it and I still think my grammar is terrible to this day. It's just not something I understand easily and I can't explain why. My experiences are nowhere near as bad as what happened to other users here but it still killed a lot of my motivation when I was younger.

I actually only recently regained access to my mb account since I was finally able to recover my ancient email address.

The atmosphere here definitely feels different than before, so I think I want to start stopping by again now.
 
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So I'd also like to give my two cents on the matter, but excuse me if this sounds more like I'm talking about myself as opposed to Mystic and his ilk.

Back in the day, I was a lot like this kinds of jerks. Shitting on kids and their "awful" projects, being toxic and outright abrasive to others; even my own friends, but especially newcomers. Couple that with me being a teenager and then you also have "edgy" """humor""" in there too. I even made a whole Youtube series about making fun of awful Sonic-related videos, of which I have completely purged by now.

I was brought up in a pretty nasty way by the communities I used to frequent, but the old IRC channel, #srb2fun, was the place I spent the most of my time, and the place where I was influenced the most. I was heavily molded by Mystic and the others of the community at the time, and in turn, I shaped others into that mentality as well (or at least the ones that bothered to stick around). It was a very "Jerk or be Jerked" kinda place, but we'd also be jerks to eachother, so either you had the ironskin to handle it, or you just pretend that you do, which is what I imagine most of us did.

I'm... not quite sure how it happened, maybe it was just gradual, but I've eventually stopped being as nearly as much of the ass that I used to be. I've come to look back and regret a lot of the things I said. I've tried apologizing to some of the people I've hurt years ago. I've cleared out a lot of the old "edgy" content I used to make. At some point, I did grow up and take responsibility, and now, after all those jokes in IRC on how "I should totally be judge", now I'm a moderator.
Highly relatable. I LOVED being an edgelord. I don't feel I have anything to apologize for because I'm not a malicious person, I never got personal and I was only ever out to make people laugh, but I realized pretty quickly that a PHPBB forum where I have all the time in the world to craft the coolest post in the room was a perfect outlet for an extremely unpopular teenager to blow off some steam and reaffirm his self-esteem at the expense of others. It helped me to develop a personality and some confidence, which was valuable. The next step was to convince people to actually like me, which wasn't compatible. I'd already poisoned the well by then and needed a fresh start elsewhere. Big thanks to Mystic for giving me the push I needed to bail on the community and reinvent myself- it's a shame no one had the authority to extend him that same courtesy until now. He definitely wasn't happy here.

Under Mystic, SRB2 was the last bastion of the Sonic Cult Boys Club cynicism that every other community has since outgrown. They've all shed their asshole mods- Pachuka, Psyguy, Green Gibbon!, Tweaker, Roarey, et al. It's a time I'm nostalgic for because I love a good rogue, but I have no need for a "mature" community because the people I knew from that time all grew up with me, and we have our own social spheres that don't overlap with a children's property and don't require constant cultural maintenance via browbeating. It's simpler and more fun because we only have to talk about games that we actually enjoy. Sonic is a precious thing to a lot of people and it's fucked up that the road to enjoying Sonic has always been imperiled with gatekeepers and predators.

A eulogy for Mystic, specifically: He was definitely something of a childhood role model. Explained to me that atheism was a tenable worldview that I didn't have to lose sleep over, shaped my initial political beliefs (I'll never forget his assertion that "every war ever fought was fought over money or religion") and demonstrated the art of wielding rational thought as a cudgel with which to maim. He was the best match player for several years, playing with him and challenging his time attack records accounted for a good chunk of my fun with the game. I'll never forget how we tied down to the millisecond on AGZ2 despite taking two separate routes. Since we seem to be forgetting already, Mystic Realm was a watershed moment for modding that rivaled the main game for length, content and quality at that time. Standards have shifted dramatically, but those maps still have a strong structure and an incredible flow that's hard to replicate, and it STILL stands as the most complete expansion to date. Don't let it die. Generally speaking, I believe strongly in divorcing the art from the artist, and would argue that creation is the best possible use of a problematic person's time, and should be encouraged insofar as it keeps them occupied from doing whatever it is you can't stand. People probably wouldn't be quite so mad right now if he'd kept on creating. Because I never had the pleasure of working with him, I'll remember him fondly.
 
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Reading through this thread for the past few days has left me in a mood I'm not sure I can describe. I'll just go ahead and put my own thoughts out there...

I discovered SRB2 as a pretty young kid during the late final demo days but didn't start interacting with the community until a few years later mainly due to the language barrier. Seeing how most people's first interactions turned out, that may have been some good luck on my side. Thanks to that, I've never really been the target of mockery and bashing by the big names of the community and from all the lurking around I did around the forum during those years, I came to develop quite the admiration for those people. To me, they were the serious, mature and super talented guys behind the game that I loved so much and they definitely influenced how I came to approach discussion on the internet and even some of my interests. By the time I started dipping my toes into real involvement (a couple of years into 2.0), the mood around the community had mellowed out a bit and having met fans of the game who used a language I was much more confortable with, my interaction with the broader community stayed fairly limited. As such the relatively recent T-word incident was basically the first time I witnessed controversy surrounding Mystic and it all culminated into what we have today with all these people (some I looked up to in the same way I looked up to Mystic) revealing the problems he caused.

All of that to say that even as someone who has only interacted with him on very few random and forgettable occasions over the years, Mystic and the kind of community he cultivated around SRB2 years back have greatly influenced me. It is disappointing to see how toxic his presence really was.

But in the end, the fact that so many of the people that will be leading the game forward have denounced his actions and apologized for ever being part of the problem makes me very hopeful that this kind of negative influence will be kept in check and quickly handled before instilling itself into the community again and with the overwhelming talent in game design they've already displayed with 2.2, I can only see a brighter future ahead of us.
 
I would like to state for the record that this ‘team member’ that groomed Ash was NOT a team member during my tenure, and I actively kept him distant from such despite a large majority of members AND the community constantly praising this person.

I also did not want Prime on the team, and he was added late in my time without permission. But we’re alright now.

Ash isn’t as clean and pure as the wind-driven snow either, but this doesn’t sound like what it means, as Mystic triggered a lot of people to do things they otherwise wouldn’t have.

More later.
 
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I would like to state for the record that this ‘team member’ that groomed Ash was NOT a team member during my tenure, and I actively kept him distant from such despite a large majority of members AND the community constantly praising this person.

I also did not want Prime on the team, and he was added late in my time without permission. But we’re alright now.

Ash isn’t as clean and pure as the wind-driven snow either, but this doesn’t sound like what it means, as Mystic triggered a lot of people to do things they otherwise wouldn’t have.

More later.
The regret must've been real for you, my man...
 
Under Mystic, SRB2 was the last bastion of the Sonic Cult Boys Club cynicism that every other community has since outgrown.
This is a better summary in one sentence than a lot of this thread has given out in 12 pages. Nice.


Since we seem to be forgetting already, Mystic Realm was a watershed moment for modding that rivaled the main game for length, content and quality at that time. [...] Generally speaking, I believe strongly in divorcing the art from the artist, and would argue that creation is the best possible use of a problematic person's time, and should be encouraged insofar as it keeps them occupied from doing whatever it is you can't stand. People probably wouldn't be quite so mad right now if he'd kept on creating.
It's hard for me to divorce Mystic from his work when, at the same time he was creating it, he was actively flaming other budding content creators, many of whom were clueless minors who just needed some help. This was before there was a proper Wiki, too, so resources weren't as easy to come by.
 
I agree that it's hard to divorce mystic from his work, especially when his name is in his work.
 
It's hard for me to divorce Mystic from his work when, at the same time he was creating it, he was actively flaming other budding content creators, many of whom were clueless minors who just needed some help. This was before there was a proper Wiki, too, so resources weren't as easy to come by.
With the caveat that I stopped paying attention in 2010, I personally never saw him do this. He didn't suffer fools who had no clue or willingness to improve, but he gave great constructive criticism. I remember he (I think it was him) wrote a guide to map design that was pretty formative in getting me to think about some of the abstract tensions that make up good level design like spacing, shape language and object placement- extremely helpful advice that's still hard to come by for gamedev in general. Anyone know where to find that?
 
With the caveat that I stopped paying attention in 2010, I personally never saw him do this. He didn't suffer fools who had no clue or willingness to improve, but he gave great constructive criticism. I remember he (I think it was him) wrote a guide to map design that was pretty formative in getting me to think about some of the abstract tensions that make up good level design like spacing, shape language and object placement- extremely helpful advice that's still hard to come by for gamedev in general. Anyone know where to find that?

He only gave constructive criticism to content he actually liked. If he disagreed with the design or concept, it was very easy for him to devolve into straight up flaming. He considered himself the quality police, and it was especially evident even recently when he threatened to organize a review bomb if SMS got released on the MB. It's good that you were able to get something out of his feedback, but many other people were just demotivated as a result of it, and some quit trying altogether.
 
I agree that it's hard to divorce mystic from his work, especially when his name is in his work.
I hear his Aerial Garden and Azure Temple zones (in-game versions) are in dire need of a major update to 2.2's standards and features (as they don't even use slopes). This wouldn't completely divorce them from Mystic, but they would no longer feel like something straight from his mod.

Someone could organize an effort to update them and give the community a strong claim to them like many of the other zones (as I don't believe the themes have suddenly become a bad thing).
 
The only help I remember him giving me was helping with locating SRB2 2k3 for coverage in SRB2 the Past.

Only other things I can remember was how he locked my SRB2 Xmas 2010 Megamaix topic, demanded the removal of Sonic doom 2 from SRB2 the Past (the hall to it was just walled off while the levels were removed), and him either coming up with or just using the term "Glaber Syndrome"

Also do those stages really needs slopes? Just because we have them now doesn't mean they're needed everywhere as long as the level is still good.
 
I remember he (I think it was him) wrote a guide to map design that was pretty formative in getting me to think about some of the abstract tensions that make up good level design like spacing, shape language and object placement- extremely helpful advice that's still hard to come by for gamedev in general. Anyone know where to find that?

Possibly "Level Design 101" on the wiki? https://wiki.srb2.org/wiki/Level_Design_101

I don't know how much of it you could say is actually written by him, but he definitely contributed to it many years back.
 
I would like to state for the record that this ‘team member’ that groomed Ash was NOT a team member during my tenure,

when is your tenure? because this individual was active from 1.08 up to 2.1, and is in 2.0's credits listed as a "Coding Assistant"—part of "a team of very talented individuals to work on SRB2 that became known as the "Sky Sanctuary Team": https://mb.srb2.org/showpost.php?p=628008

also: i was not the only victim.

and I actively kept him distant from such despite a large majority of members AND the community constantly praising this person.

he is in the credits. he was on your team. he is listed as being part of STJr on the wiki, still.

that isn't distant.

i think the biggest question a lot of people might have for you might be: if you had known about Mystic's (and this individual's) behavior, why didn't you do anything about it?
 
when is your tenure? because this individual was active from 1.08 up to 2.1, and is in 2.0's credits listed as a "Coding Assistant"—part of "a team of very talented individuals to work on SRB2 that became known as the "Sky Sanctuary Team": https://mb.srb2.org/showpost.php?p=628008

also: i was not the only victim.



he is in the credits. he was on your team. he is listed as being part of STJr on the wiki, still.

that isn't distant.

i think the biggest question a lot of people might have for you might be: if you had known about Mystic's (and this individual's) behavior, why didn't you do anything about it?


a) let’s not hide this guy’s name anymore- it was JTE.
b) I didn’t know anything about him or what he was doing behind the scenes at the time. I just got a bad vibe from him and thought he was creepy.
c) I only saw development through 2.0.4. It’s likely he had involvement in 2.0.6 and 2.0.7.
d) if he is credited, it’s because he did work on the code independently of STJr, and we found it useful and incorporated it.
e) The team was pushing big time at the same moment to bring on both Prime and JTE. I flat out refused JTE because of all the points above. Someone else (Mystic?) approved Prime before I could provide my consent or dissent. It was awkward when Prime found my post in dev discussion saying I didn’t want him in.

[EDIT: I was not even aware he was exhibiting behavior like that during my tenure, I just got bad vibes from him.]

Also, there was NO ‘dev team’ as it is known today until the last year of my tenure. I will expand upon this later.

So please, stop stoking the flames. I know you were hurt, but nobody that could have done something about it knew so at the time. I was not a big community guy anyway — I had a game to make.
 
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