Suggestions

[time gear]

Um, I never used the "skill issue" as an argument? I mean that Sonic is what the main path in the level design is meant for, no? If not having a proper place to practice is the issue, then just follow up with my tutorial idea. I think it would work gre-

Your specific argument is:

The new player should take the time to at least learn to use the Thok more properly.

I also struggled with the Thok when I started playing SRB2 last year. Of course it's gonna be difficult! It's the Thok! You're gonna Thok yourselves into bottomless pits, lasers, and enemies. I did too. I bet you did as well.

This is the "skill issue" / "git gud" argument, just not worded as such. You are very specifically saying that if people are having issues with the thok's difficulty, then they should just get better at using the thok.

What I meant is more a streamlined tutorial. Like, after you complete the normal tutorial, when you start a new game as Sonic alone, it asks if you wanna learn how to properly use the Thok. If they deny that, then that's not on us that they made that decision, is it?

It shouldn't be on anyone. Think about this from the perspective of a new player who doesn't really know anything about the game and is just trying it out for the first time. Sonic's the main character of the series, maybe even your favorite character. He's the character on the title screen, obviously he's the default experience right? All the other characters are going to be sidegrades or upgrades in comparison, but he's the character you should experience the game with first.

Except it turns out he's the closest thing to hard mode available from the start and while you're still getting the hang of using him the level design starts throwing death hazards around in places new players are going to be prone to accidentally thokking into, either completely by accident or as a result of panicking or overshooting a jump or etc. Sure, you were warned, but that's not going to make most people feel better about being effectively gatekept from enjoying the character they're likely to want to play as most due to his high skill floor.

The title character needs to be approachable. Ideally I would say it's the level design that should change, but ideals aren't always practical and it's a lot more work to redesign the entire game's level design with this difficulty curve in mind rather than to simply swap Sonic's ability out to one that's going to get new players killed less. That's not to say that difficulty is bad. Death is very much a part of the learning experience, but when the majority of new players are feeling like they are suffering a needless amount of deaths and it doesn't feel like it's their fault and is ruining their experience, that's an issue with the game.

...what? Wasn't 2.2 built with the Thok in mind? Wasn't 2.2's main path built around Sonic alone and the Thok?

Not exactly. Technically speaking, you never need to thok even a single time to complete the game, something that Amy in particular benefits from. More practically speaking, much of the level design directly discourages unskilled players from using the thok at all due to it being a death hazard nearby death pits and similar obstacles. It has fantastic utility for veterans who know how to properly utilize it to their advantage, but newer players often quickly learn to fear using it.

Let's say for example that Sonic was given some sort of double jump as his ability instead, and thok was relegated to being a shield ability. New players wouldn't need to worry about the thok's skill floor, and could use his double jump as a more traditional platforming aid making him more accessible without making him as vertically powerful as Tails or Knuckles. Shields granting access to the thok could be placed in areas that the thok is particularly useful in, allowing those of us who know how to use it to make better use out of it. On top of that, the perks granted by the thok would be accessible to every vanilla character, allowing us to mix in some even more advanced nuance to its use. Imagine performing a thok bounce on an enemy to gain some big air and distance, only to then chain that into Knuckles' glide or Tails' fly or even Metal's hover.

 

[Banjo268]

This is the "skill issue" / "git gud" argument, just not worded as such. You are very specifically saying that if people are having issues with the thok's difficulty, then they should just get better at using the thok.

I didn't try to mean it as such. I'm saying that instead of complaining instantly about how the Thok sucks, at the very least look into how it works (via the MB) or check the Wiki. If you're not satisfied with what the community provides, then complain away.

Except it turns out he's the closest thing to hard mode available from the start and while you're still getting the hang of using him the level design starts throwing death hazards around in places new players are going to be prone to accidentally thokking into, either completely by accident or as a result of panicking or overshooting a jump or etc. Sure, you were warned, but that's not going to make most people feel better about being effectively gatekept from enjoying the character they're likely to want to play as most due to his high skill floor.

The title character needs to be approachable. Ideally I would say it's the level design that should change, but ideals aren't always practical and it's a lot more work to redesign the entire game's level design with this difficulty curve in mind rather than to simply swap Sonic's ability out to one that's going to get new players killed less. That's not to say that difficulty is bad. Death is very much a part of the learning experience, but when the majority of new players are feeling like they are suffering a needless amount of deaths and it doesn't feel like it's their fault and is ruining their experience, that's an issue with the game.

As I keep saying, the level design was built around Sonic (maybe not his Thok, but him in general), so I get that it can feel unfair (and sometimes it is), but you have to tough it out at times and just go through it. I myself have gotten multiple GAME OVER's from spamming Thok. The game is clearing warning you not to go as Sonic alone, trying by putting the duo first instead. I get that they might ignore it, but I feel I shouldn't have to give up something I enjoy about this fangame just because it's rough the first few months. It's not like SRB2 is unfair in its difficulty, it's generally fine. Also, just because it feels like the game is unfair, doesn't necessarily mean it is. Trust me on that one.

Not exactly. Technically speaking, you never need to thok even a single time to complete the game, something that Amy in particular benefits from. More practically speaking, much of the level design directly discourages unskilled players from using the thok at all due to it being a death hazard nearby death pits and similar obstacles. It has fantastic utility for veterans who know how to properly utilize it to their advantage, but newer players often quickly learn to fear using it.

Let's say for example that Sonic was given some sort of double jump as his ability instead, and thok was relegated to being a shield ability. New players wouldn't need to worry about the thok's skill floor, and could use his double jump as a more traditional platforming aid making him more accessible without making him as vertically powerful as Tails or Knuckles. Shields granting access to the thok could be placed in areas that the thok is particularly useful in, allowing those of us who know how to use it to make better use out of it. On top of that, the perks granted by the thok would be accessible to every vanilla character, allowing us to mix in some even more advanced nuance to its use. Imagine performing a thok bounce on an enemy to gain some big air and distance, only to then chain that into Knuckles' glide or Tails' fly or even Metal's hover.

Quick question: have you played a Sonic mod that removes his Thok? Everytime I play a changing-mod, it messes me up not being able to Thok like normal. It's so weird and honestly, for a feeling that to be permanent scares me. A lot. Also, if veterans typically appreciate the Thok, then WHY THE HELL ARE WE REMOVING IT? Eventually new players get skilled at SRB2 somewhat, technically turning them into veterans who understand the game. So, the logic of removing the Thok doesn't makes sense to me, as all new players eventually graduate from that beginner phase (god I hope so).

 

[time gear]

As I keep saying, the level design was built around Sonic (maybe not his Thok, but him in general), so I get that it can feel unfair (and sometimes it is), but you have to tough it out at times and just go through it.

Don't misunderstand, nobody is saying that there shouldn't be difficulty. However, game balance is a complicated thing and there is such a thing as something being too hard for beginners. As you said yourself, it can get to the point of being unfair. When it gets to that point, you know you have a problem that needs fixing.

Let's say for example that there's a fighting game you like and your favorite character is in it. The character in question has a very nuance heavy moveset that skilled veterans can dominate the competition with, but beginners just can't utilize it the same way their more experienced peers can, and so they keep dying over and over to enemies that shouldn't really even be that hard. For a fighting game, usually you could just say "Oh that character is more meant for experienced players, you should try using a more beginner friendly character instead", but if that character happens to be the only playable character in the story mode and is also the main character of the series, that goes away and now you have a story mode campaign that is beginner unfriendly because the title character happens to be a very experience based character to win with.

While not a 1 to 1 comparison, that's not so far off from what we have going on here. Sonic's thok is a great and powerful tool in the hands of people who understand how to make the most out of the nuance around it, but in the hands of inexperienced players it leads to a lot of deaths that feel completely unfair, and when you're talking about the title character who is part of the starting roster, that's a game design issue. Your title character should not be overly difficult for new players to use.

The game is clearing warning you not to go as Sonic alone

We've been over this several times over by now. Warning new players not to play as the title character, a character all too likely to even be their favorite character, is a problem in and of itself. First impressions are vitally important, and this is already going to be a huge red flag for many new players. When they inevitably end up ignoring these warnings because they want the freedom to play as whoever they want and then get punished by harsh difficulty they weren't prepared for, that's only going to confirm their doubts and cement in their minds that the game is flawed.

I get that they might ignore it, but I feel I shouldn't have to give up something I enjoy about this fangame just because it's rough the first few months.

I don't want to give up the thok either. That's why I've been doing my best to get ideas for its preservation out there. I don't really expect any of my ideas to stick, but at the very least it might get some creative spark going, and might even turn out better than anything I could ever come up with. As I've mentioned before, keeping the thok in is more important to me than it being Sonic's double jump ability. I don't like the "Just mod it in" argument because the game isn't and shouldn't be designed around mods. The thok won't fit if it doesn't harmonize with the existing design in the game, so if it is to remain it has to be as part of the vanilla experience in some form.

Also, just because it feels like the game is unfair, doesn't necessarily mean it is. Trust me on that one.

True but also very subjective. Everyone's going to have their own experience regarding difficulty, and the majority of new players are choosing not to use thok at all. This is a problem. The title character's main gimmick shouldn't be something that amounts to an exclusive club for players who know how to use it properly. Which leads into my next point:

Quick question: have you played a Sonic mod that removes his Thok?

This is how many new players are ending up playing as Sonic anyway, being careful not to accidentally press double jump out of fear of what will happen if they do. It's equally jarring to pretty much everyone. By not using thok experienced players are lacking one of their most powerful tools, new players are fearful of what will happen if they try to use said tool, and everyone ends up effectively not having a double jump ability. It's not an ideal situation for the character to be in regardless.

for (...) that to be permanent scares me. A lot.

On the bright side, Sonic simply not having a double jump ability was never on the table to begin with. Sonic's ability is being replaced. It doesn't matter how much we try to argue against it, STJr has their mind made up on the matter, and honestly I understand and agree with a lot of their reasonings for why they are making the decision. That's why I have chosen to focus my efforts in preserving the thok as part of the experience in another way and choose to remain open minded about how this could end up being a change for the better in the long run. Change can be scary, I get that, but it's also a necessary step when it comes to growth. That's just part of life. Just as it took you work to fit the thok into your comfort zone, you very well may be able to fit Sonic's new ability whatever it may be into your comfort zone as well. You might even end up liking it more. It would be a lot better for your mental health to not treat this change as a worst case scenario. Trust me when I say that letting anxiety win will always lead to more harm than good.

So, the logic of removing the Thok doesn't makes sense to me, as all new players eventually graduate from that beginner phase

Only to get replaced by the next group of new players who struggle similarly. The old newbies who got gud don't invalidate the design flaw as a design flaw, it just kicks the can down the road to the next group of poor souls who has to deal with it. It's still a pothole in the road that needs fixing, even if you personally have passed it and no longer need to deal with it. Just keep in mind that while fixing the issue involves replacing Sonic's ability, that doesn't necessarily mean thok has to be gone entirely, and considering the giant proverbial angry mob gathered in front of STJr's proverbial house I think there's at least some kind of chance of thok remaining in the game in some form.

 

[Banjo268]

Don't misunderstand, nobody is saying that there shouldn't be difficulty. However, game balance is a complicated thing and there is such a thing as something being too hard for beginners. As you said yourself, it can get to the point of being unfair. When it gets to that point, you know you have a problem that needs fixing.

I agree with you here. I truly do.

Let's say for example that there's a fighting game you like and your favorite character is in it. The character in question has a very nuance heavy moveset that skilled veterans can dominate the competition with, but beginners just can't utilize it the same way their more experienced peers can, and so they keep dying over and over to enemies that shouldn't really even be that hard. For a fighting game, usually you could just say "Oh that character is more meant for experienced players, you should try using a more beginner friendly character instead", but if that character happens to be the only playable character in the story mode and is also the main character of the series, that goes away and now you have a story mode campaign that is beginner unfriendly because the title character happens to be a very experience based character to win with.

While not a 1 to 1 comparison, that's not so far off from what we have going on here. Sonic's thok is a great and powerful tool in the hands of people who understand how to make the most out of the nuance around it, but in the hands of inexperienced players it leads to a lot of deaths that feel completely unfair, and when you're talking about the title character who is part of the starting roster, that's a game design issue. Your title character should not be overly difficult for new players to use.

Ok, so I feel the solution here is to somehow either nuance the Thok, or have it become more beginner-friendly. Don't mistake for there not being difficulty. I mean if we can have the Thok more user-friendly, while keeping it's original strength for veterans, I think this would kinda work perfect. Now, this would definitely be a difficult task, to balance such two things, but I can believe in STJR to do it.

We've been over this several times over by now. Warning new players not to play as the title character, a character all too likely to even be their favorite character, is a problem in and of itself. First impressions are vitally important, and this is already going to be a huge red flag for many new players. When they inevitably end up ignoring these warnings because they want the freedom to play as whoever they want and then get punished by harsh difficulty they weren't prepared for, that's only going to confirm their doubts and cement in their minds that the game is flawed.

Ok fair. Just one more thought though, I think that a mandatory Thok tutorial whenever you choose Sonic alone wouldn't be terrible. It wouldn't hone in on the more speedrunner-veteran advanced side of it, but more how they taught how to use the Wind ability in the base tutorial. I think that would work fine, but I wanna know how you feel about this thought.

True but also very subjective. Everyone's going to have their own experience regarding difficulty, and the majority of new players are choosing not to use thok at all. This is a problem. The title character's main gimmick shouldn't be something that amounts to an exclusive club for players who know how to use it properly. Which leads into my next point: This is how many new players are ending up playing as Sonic anyway, being careful not to accidentally press double jump out of fear of what will happen if they do. It's equally jarring to pretty much everyone. By not using thok experienced players are lacking one of their most powerful tools, new players are fearful of what will happen if they try to use said tool, and everyone ends up effectively not having a double jump ability. It's not an ideal situation for the character to be in regardless.

This sorta goes in tandem with my mandatory Thok tutorial idea, as it would introduce the Thok in a more friendly way (and would help if the Thok became more beginner-friendly). So while it stinks for those folks, I think my idea isn't that bad.

I don't want to give up the thok either. [...] I don't like the "Just mod it in" argument because the game isn't and shouldn't be designed around mods. The thok won't fit if it doesn't harmonize with the existing design in the game, so if it is to remain it has to be as part of the vanilla experience in some form.

YES THANK YOU. I've seen some people argue against the Thok removal "just mod it back in the game", and it's not right. I agree with you, I shouldn't have to be designed around mods. Thank you for this.

On the bright side, Sonic simply not having a double jump ability was never on the table to begin with. Sonic's ability is being replaced. It doesn't matter how much we try to argue against it, STJr has their mind made up on the matter, and honestly I understand and agree with a lot of their reasonings for why they are making the decision.

Oh shit they did? Crap... Well like you said, maybe we can preserve it (NOT THROUGH MODDING IT BACK IN THOUGH)

Only to get replaced by the next group of new players who struggle similarly. The old newbies who got gud don't invalidate the design flaw as a design flaw, it just kicks the can down the road to the next group of poor souls who has to deal with it. It's still a pothole in the road that needs fixing, even if you personally have passed it and no longer need to deal with it. Just keep in mind that while fixing the issue involves replacing Sonic's ability, that doesn't necessarily mean thok has to be gone entirely, and considering the giant proverbial angry mob gathered in front of STJr's proverbial house I think there's at least some kind of chance of thok remaining in the game in some form.

Yeah no, fi the Thok completely died, I think everyone would be mad at STJR (at least somewhat). The idea of putting it on someone else so Sonic can have more user-friendly experience... I don't why, it just doesn't sit right with me. It wouldn't feel right for me for Sonic NOT to have that ability anymore... I don't know, maybe my judgement is getting clouded, it just would feel weird if Sonic didn't have the Thok.

 

[time gear]

Ok fair. Just one more thought though, I think that a mandatory Thok tutorial whenever you choose Sonic alone wouldn't be terrible. It wouldn't hone in on the more speedrunner-veteran advanced side of it, but more how they taught how to use the Wind ability in the base tutorial. I think that would work fine, but I wanna know how you feel about this thought.

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of "invisible tutorials", which is when you convey information to the player organically through gameplay. For example, when you see an enemy for the first time in a classic Mega Man game and it uses its attack before there's any chance of it harming you, cluing you in as to how it works so that you can formulate a plan to deal with it by the time you are close enough for it to damage you is an example of an invisible tutorial. In short, invisible tutorials are the "learn by experience" method of teaching the player.

GFZ has many examples of invisible tutorials, especially in act 1. By simply taking your time to thoroughly explore through the stage, you will learn a big chunk of useful information such as the functions of various shield powers, how high your jump height is, what various stage objects such as monitors and springs do, etc. All within a safe playground that almost always at worst slaps you on the wrist for making a mistake and with no text boxes to scroll through or the player's movement being halted for any reason.

If the level design were to be modified to incorporate more of Sonic's thok utility in mind, the best way to do this would probably be to sprinkle more challenging but ultimately safe and optional thok based challenges into the early game stage layouts. The kind of design in which you do not die if you fall down, but rather simply have to run back around to try the section again or fall into a lower pathway. Any time the player does get hurt as a result of failure in these sections should be in an area where rings are plentiful and getting back onto safe ground is readily accessible so that the player can retry without much hassle. To motivate players to take these pathways, goodies such as useful shield monitors and extra lives can be placed in positions in which they become the player's reward for completing the challenge.

As you start getting more into the midway stages, the frequency of these challenges should increase with most of them punishing you by having you fall down into another pathway, but a few that actually do result in more harsh punishment such as losing a life. Some of these would be main features of their pathways rather than optional side challenges that reward the player. The complexity of the platforming in these sections should be a bit higher on average, but more complex challenges at this stage should have less severe punishment. By now the rising difficulty combined with the number of opportunities the player has had to get a feel for the ability should have started to make it click in their mind regarding the nuances and usefulness of the thok and when to and when not to use it.

Late into the game, the number of death hazards is allowed to ramp up, with almost no safe platforming challenges in the endgame stages and the main path being peppered with mandatory platforming challenges. This is where the lessons end and the player begins having to do the main quiz. Of course, characters such as Tails and Knuckles can cheese past these with their mobility, but someone who's been playing Sonic up to this point should have had ample opportunity to get a feel for the thok so as to be properly prepared for the challenge ahead.

By handling tutorials this way, the player might not even realize they are playing through one and it's overall less invasive either way even if they do notice.

 

[Banjo268]

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of "invisible tutorials", which is when you convey information to the player organically through gameplay. For example, when you see an enemy for the first time in a classic Mega Man game and it uses its attack before there's any chance of it harming you, cluing you in as to how it works so that you can formulate a plan to deal with it by the time you are close enough for it to damage you is an example of an invisible tutorial. In short, invisible tutorials are the "learn by experience" method of teaching the player.

GFZ has many examples of invisible tutorials, especially in act 1. By simply taking your time to thoroughly explore through the stage, you will learn a big chunk of useful information such as the functions of various shield powers, how high your jump height is, what various stage objects such as monitors and springs do, etc. All within a safe playground that almost always at worst slaps you on the wrist for making a mistake and with no text boxes to scroll through or the player's movement being halted for any reason.

If the level design were to be modified to incorporate more of Sonic's thok utility in mind, the best way to do this would probably be to sprinkle more challenging but ultimately safe and optional thok based challenges into the early game stage layouts. The kind of design in which you do not die if you fall down, but rather simply have to run back around to try the section again or fall into a lower pathway. Any time the player does get hurt as a result of failure in these sections should be in an area where rings are plentiful and getting back onto safe ground is readily accessible so that the player can retry without much hassle. To motivate players to take these pathways, goodies such as useful shield monitors and extra lives can be placed in positions in which they become the player's reward for completing the challenge.

As you start getting more into the midway stages, the frequency of these challenges should increase with most of them punishing you by having you fall down into another pathway, but a few that actually do result in more harsh punishment such as losing a life. Some of these would be main features of their pathways rather than optional side challenges that reward the player. The complexity of the platforming in these sections should be a bit higher on average, but more complex challenges at this stage should have less severe punishment. By now the rising difficulty combined with the number of opportunities the player has had to get a feel for the ability should have started to make it click in their mind regarding the nuances and usefulness of the thok and when to and when not to use it.

Late into the game, the number of death hazards is allowed to ramp up, with almost no safe platforming challenges in the endgame stages and the main path being peppered with mandatory platforming challenges. This is where the lessons end and the player begins having to do the main quiz. Of course, characters such as Tails and Knuckles can cheese past these with their mobility, but someone who's been playing Sonic up to this point should have had ample opportunity to get a feel for the thok so as to be properly prepared for the challenge ahead.

By handling tutorials this way, the player might not even realize they are playing through one and it's overall less invasive either way even if they do notice.

I think invisible tutorials are great! This solution would definitely would benefit the Thok without removing it from Sonic! I think it works! Although, I feel that GFZ1 is more a general invisible tutorial for the main trio, as there are sections that emphasizes Tails and Knuckles more that Sonic himself. And you can only die 2 ways: either drowning (which MUST be intentional) or Thokking into a badnik, touching the ground at the last second, and die from having no rings. So, it doesn't convey it as much, GFZ1 works as a playground really well. Although most new players won't notice it.

 

[time gear]

I think it works! Although, I feel that GFZ1 is more a general invisible tutorial for the main trio, as there are sections that emphasizes Tails and Knuckles more that Sonic himself.

Yes. My mentioning of GFZ's invisible tutorials was more to highlight their existence and functionality in SRB2 rather than anything regarding the thok specifically, which is why I mentioned it so early into my post before I really started describing how to apply the concept to the thok.

 

[Banjo268]

Yes. My mentioning of GFZ's invisible tutorials was more to highlight their existence and functionality in SRB2 rather than anything regarding the thok specifically, which is why I mentioned it so early into my post before I really started describing how to apply the concept to the thok.

Yeah, that was a small tangent on GFZ1 as a invisible tutorial that's all. I think you're idea of having the level design being more Thok-friendly is genius.

 

[Banjo268]

So, I was watching SF Productions' new video, and I noticed that he really seemed to hate the Thok, as it wouldn't help with the platforming in the game (and that he disliked the platforming aspect of the game in generally but regardless), and it had me thinking about the Thok argument and its removal. Now you're thinking, "Why THE HELL would you bring this up? All this does is argue that you should remove it!" I disagree. He specified that he didn't enjoy how it didn't sync with the level design. I know that changing the entire level design is much harder to do, but I believe that Sonic would benefit so much from a change to the design rather than having a complete ability change, that mind you, that the level design doesn't change here, so neither the Thok or the new ability benefit from the change. So I hope that maybe we get a change.

 

[C.D. Dinosaur]

I believe that Sonic would benefit so much from a change to the design rather than having a complete ability change

this is a really good point I completely disagree with. You are right. Sonic would greatly benefit from a level design change, but I don't necessarily think that has an inherently higher priority than a move change. It's true that the thok is, in fact, a move that arguably has merit (whether or not that conceptual merit is worth the drawbacks is besides the point) however, just because a thing is good now, does not mean a new thing can't be better. Going through the effort of remaking every level, likely remaking a few from the ground up, seems like a much less reasonable move, from a purely logistics perspective.
One could also make the point that sonic team senior also tried a similar move, and went and made sonic unleashed (not a very classic friendly game) I, however, will not make this point as it actually makes little sense.
In my opinion, revamping level design to fit the thok feels like a good idea, but simultaneously feels like you are buying a new car because you popped a tire

PS it also totally feels like a completely on paper idea, saying "I have a lot of ideas of what level designers could do" without taking into account how to actually achieve such in a well executed level

basically I'll believe it when I see it

 

[Banjo268]

You are right. Sonic would greatly benefit from a level design change, but I don't necessarily think that has an inherently higher priority than a move change. It's true that the thok is, in fact, a move that arguably has merit (whether or not that conceptual merit is worth the drawbacks is besides the point) however, just because a thing is good now, does not mean a new thing can't be better. Going through the effort of remaking every level, likely remaking a few from the ground up, seems like a much less reasonable move, from a purely logistics perspective.
In my opinion, revamping level design to fit the thok feels like a good idea, but simultaneously feels like you are buying a new car because you popped a tire

PS it also totally feels like a completely on paper idea, saying "I have a lot of ideas of what level designers could do" without taking into account how to actually achieve such in a well executed level

To be fair, I'm not a map maker, so if I'm being rude or oblivious to how hard it is to revamp the maps, my apologies. I think if the new ability could be objectively better than the Thok in every way, then I'll give. However, if STJR doesn't decide to change the Thok, the level design change would definitely seem as the best option. About me not taking into account the ability to achieve it, I don't say this rude, but isn't what development is about? To carefully build and check how to achieve a goal. I know that it's just an idea, but the thread is called "Suggestions". I don't mean to come off rude or entitled or anything like that, I'm just expressing my thoughts. I have ideas, true, but I also want to properly explain them. That's all.

 

[time gear]

I'm still of the mindset that allowing Sonic's ability to change and keeping in thok in some other form would be the best of both worlds approach. While it's true that from a beginner standpoint much of the current level design doesn't harmonize with the thok, there are still some sections in which it has quite blatant and obvious usefulness. As such, I'm quite a fan of the specific idea of just making it a shield ability so that it can be used as any character and given out in such specific places. The Force Shield's ability to halt all momentum in midair in particular is rather unpopular as far as I can remember, so it could be a candidate to have its ability replaced with the thok, especially since both abilities have something to do with momentum (Force shield's current ability halts momentum, thok redirects it).

 

[Banjo268]

I'm still of the mindset that allowing Sonic's ability to change and keeping in thok in some other form would be the best of both worlds approach.

This poses the question of the Thok's replacement, and I'm uncertain if the ability will be quality or not.

 

[time gear]

This poses the question of the Thok's replacement, and I'm uncertain if the ability will be quality or not.

2.3 is already being made as a testing ground regardless, since they're implementing the new physics but keeping most of the existing level design the same. If they feel that the new physics aren't working out, they're already prepared to roll back and go back to the drawing board. I don't see why this couldn't be the case for Sonic's double jump ability too. Going ahead and replacing Sonic's ability but still having Thok usable in some form would be a great way to put both abilities to the test and see how the different demographics within the community respond to both abilities within the new physics both in the old levels and in Dark City Zone, which will have been made with the new physics in mind.

 

[Banjo268]

2.3 is already being made as a testing ground regardless, since they're implementing the new physics but keeping most of the existing level design the same. If they feel that the new physics aren't working out, they're already prepared to roll back and go back to the drawing board. I don't see why this couldn't be the case for Sonic's double jump ability too. Going ahead and replacing Sonic's ability but still having Thok usable in some form would be a great way to put both abilities to the test and see how the different demographics within the community respond to both abilities within the new physics both in the old levels and in Dark City Zone, which will have been made with the new physics in mind.

So basically, till in due time. Aight. I'm fine with waiting, just ready to see what's behind the curtain.

 

[tabu]

There should be some kind of 3D model draw distance cap. Like say if there's more than 50(?) models around the player at once then anything else becomes its sprite version. I use models for cacti and am getting some unnecessarily bad lag in Sandy Night Zone (OLDC 2023)

 

[shortnameswill]

I like the thok because it was hard at first, it kinda felt like how Celeste's difficulty curve worked.

 

[RoimWolf]

I like the thok because it was hard at first, it kinda felt like how Celeste's difficulty curve worked.

I feel like that's not exactly a proper or fair comparison? Afaik, Celeste's level design was made with all those movement options in mind even from pretty early on in the game.
Meanwhile, SRB2 levels are rarely-- if at all-- made with the thok in mind. The one part I feel was possibly made with that in mind was the end stretch of Black Core Act 1 and that's it. Anything else feels very much coincidental at most (unless I'm forgetting something?).

Spoiler: Small Tangent about Sonic's Jump Ability

Also, this is a tangent, but I feel that as long as the level designs stay at that level-- being made so they can be completed with the typical run speed, jump height and the ability to roll (before even considering Knuckles, Amy and Fang)-- it doesn't matter much outside of speedrunning what Sonic's jump ability is, unless it's intruvise, broken or either underpowered or overpowered.

 

[Rae]

What if there was a friend feature in srb2?
like you can make your own pfp and see your friends list
and join them
its basically like roblox.

 

[InfernoMelon]

I have some suggestions...
1. Pls add some actual momentum to the game, it's been 34 years (I think) and this game still plays like Sonic the Hedgehog 1 and Forces

2. Remove Fang and replace him with Honey the Cat (an actual good Sonic Character)