It's the little things that matter.

[Shadow Hog]

I probably wouldn't go out of my way to download either, but given the choice, I'd probably take a well-made level recolor to a well-made character recolor. The former definitely changes the mood of a given play session, while the other... well, doesn't, outside of maybe making it seem even more amateur.

 

[Monster Iestyn]

...and I thought we all knew Christmas mode is definitely not returning to SRB2, whether or not you all think Christmas versions of the SP levels are worth making or not.

Also, I'd prefer completely new levels over Christmas-ifying the already existing ones - it might fit the mood for some, sure, but in the end they're still basically the same levels as any other time of year!

 

[rocky]

Exactly.

But is there a chance that a level (only a level) can have a system based on the clock that turns the level into christmas time without turning the official SRB2 levels into Christmas?

Also,Sonic on a christmas hat is Fun and appealing to the people on this time of the year.

 

[Charybdizs]

So what you're saying is that a level recolor is better than a character recolor because people like the former and not the latter? I wouldn't be so sure that that's the case. Just take a look at the Master Server and you will see that quite a lot of people in the Casual Room use character recolors.

Implying the people on the Master Server count. :p

 

[MascaraSnake]

I find your liking of level recolors as odd as the MS people's liking of character recolors, so yes. :P

But anyway, this is a moot point. The whole thing only works if you make entirely new levels.

 

[Sergeant Brown]

It doesn't matter for me either way, so long as it's actually Christmas maps and not a Sonic with a hat.

 

[Charybdizs]

I find your liking of level recolors as odd as the MS people's liking of character recolors, so yes. :P

Ah, but it seems to be a liking showed by much more (non master server) people than me. That alone should say something. And really, I never said I was a big fan of them. I don't mind them, and I can see the merit in them, but I'm not all goggly over them like some are.

But anyway, this is a moot point. The whole thing only works if you make entirely new levels.

How is this a moot point?

 

[MascaraSnake]

Ah, but it seems to be a liking showed by much more (non master server) people than me. That alone should say something.

Popularity doesn't indicate quality. By your logic, character recolors must have merit because there are so many people on the MS who like them. Except that for some reason, you seem to think they don't count.

How is this a moot point?

I find it pointless to discuss the merits of Christmas mode when it's not coming back anyway and we've already established that it would be a better choice to make entirely new levels.

 

[Senku Niola]

Well I have SFZ2 almost finished, I might go back and touch up some small issues later though. I kinda wish SRB2 had more wintery/xmasy textures and flats in game cause I don't want to use any custom ones.

 

[Charybdizs]

Popularity doesn't indicate quality. By your logic, character recolors must have merit because there are so many people on the MS who like them. Except that for some reason, you seem to think they don't count.

Popularity isn't directly attached to quality, but it certainly is an indicator of it. Not always, but it's significant enough that if no one likes something, you've likely got a problem. How stupid would it have been if after making Gravity Garden, I had shrugged all criticism off because the common opinion isn't an indicator of quality?

And about the people on the Master Server? The reason they aren't a good judge of quality is because most of them are younger children who haven't yet formulated their standards. What is good and bad to them is easily swayed by their mood, or by their pre-conceived notion. Or for that matter, who the author is. Just look at Super Chris's rating of Dumbventure by D00D64, and then his rating of Mario Land 1-1 by Simsmagic. Not that their opinion is entirely worthless, but it certainly is a very poor indicator of quality.

I find it pointless to discuss the merits of Christmas mode when it's not coming back anyway and we've already established that it would be a better choice to make entirely new levels.

Whether you find it pointless or not is insignificant. The reason being, there is at least one person here making a Christmas level, and many more thinking about it. Even if there weren't though, what does it matter if a conversation has no practical application? Aren't lots of the conversations we humans have pointless? If people want to have a pointless conversation, and are enjoying it, then jolly well let them. If you don't want to take part, then don't.

And of course better levels are preferable, but that doesn't render Christmas themed levels worthless.

 

[MascaraSnake]

How stupid would it have been if after making Gravity Garden, I had shrugged all criticism off because the common opinion isn't an indicator of quality?

It would have been stupid because then you'd have assumed that criticism and common opinion are the same when they're not. Common opinion tells you if or how much people like it, criticism tells you why. So you can't shrug off one thing with the argument that the other is worthless.

And about the people on the Master Server? The reason they aren't a good judge of quality is because most of them are younger children who haven't yet formulated their standards. What is good and bad to them is easily swayed by their mood, or by their pre-conceived notion. Or for that matter, who the author is. Just look at Super Chris's rating of Dumbventure by D00D64, and then his rating of Mario Land 1-1 by Simsmagic. Not that their opinion is entirely worthless, but it certainly is a very poor indicator of quality.

This isn't restricted to the Master Server. If you look at the OLDC, you will find that a lot of scores are influenced by mood or pre-conceived notion etc. While the average age of the people on the Master Server is certainly lower, most of the forum users are nevertheless adolescents in the range of 12-18 or something, and that's not an age where you can expect people to be fully mature yet. This is why I don't trust common opinion here but rather the reasoning behind it. I don't accept "people like it" as an argument in a forum that has begged to bring Chaos mode back, if you know what I mean. ;)

Whether you find it pointless or not is insignificant. The reason being, there is at least one person here making a Christmas level, and many more thinking about it.

I wasn't talking about the topic as a whole. I was talking about the discussion between us two specifically. I find it pointless to continue discussing an issue that we already have a solution for.

Even if there weren't though, what does it matter if a conversation has no practical application? Aren't lots of the conversations we humans have pointless? If people want to have a pointless conversation, and are enjoying it, then jolly well let them. If you don't want to take part, then don't.

That is a metaphysical discussion. I don't want to delve into metaphysical discussions in a topic about Christmas levels. And when I say "this is a moot point", that doesn't mean "stop talking about it". I'm just stating that the discussion is pointless, not that I want it to end.

And of course better levels are preferable, but that doesn't render Christmas themed levels worthless.

But why would you want half-assed retextures of existing levels when you can have new levels of high quality?

 

[Charybdizs]

It would have been stupid because then you'd have assumed that criticism and common opinion are the same when they're not. Common opinion tells you if or how much people like it, criticism tells you why. So you can't shrug off one thing with the argument that the other is worthless.

But even good criticism all boils down to personal opinion in the end. On the smallest scale, is it not all a matter of what people find enjoyable and not enjoyable. If no one finds it enjoyable, then what is the point of it besides self satisfaction to the maker?

This isn't restricted to the Master Server. If you look at the OLDC, you will find that a lot of scores are influenced by mood or pre-conceived notion etc. While the average age of the people on the Master Server is certainly lower, most of the forum users are nevertheless adolescents in the range of 12-18 or something, and that's not an age where you can expect people to be fully mature yet. This is why I don't trust common opinion here but rather the reasoning behind it. I don't accept "people like it" as an argument in a forum that has begged to bring Chaos mode back, if you know what I mean. ;)

Of course it is everywhere, but it is especially prevalent on the Master Server. The whole reasoning behind getting rid of Chaos Mode, and now Circuit Mode is a good example of it all.

That is a metaphysical discussion. I don't want to delve into metaphysical discussions in a topic about Christmas levels. And when I say "this is a moot point", that doesn't mean "stop talking about it". I'm just stating that the discussion is pointless, not that I want it to end.

Fair enough. You came off to me as trying to pull the "Now that I'm done talking I'm going to shut you up before you can answer me" tactic.

But why would you want half-assed retextures of existing levels when you can have new levels of high quality?

Half assed? But what if they're not half assed, and they're good, complete, pretty jobs? You're using negative words to make something sound negative.

 

[MascaraSnake]

But even good criticism all boils down to personal opinion in the end.

Of course it does. Criticism stems from personal opinion. But merely stating your personal opinion doesn't help anybody. Criticism is the act of giving reasons for your personal opinion.

Half assed? But what if they're not half assed, and they're good, complete, pretty jobs?

That's not possible. Let's use GFZ2 as an example. The question is whether or not the water should be transformed to ice. There are the following options:

1. Don't transform the water to ice. Of course that would be half-assed because in a realistically winter-themed level, the water would be frozen.
2. Transform the water to ice. Several important parts of the stage will be rendered inaccessible as Sonic. Unless that issue is fixed, the job is half-assed because crucial parts of the level are de facto removed.
3. Fix the issue mentioned in 2. How? Well, because many of the secrets are now inaccessible, you need to relocate them. In the process, you inevitably have to rebuild huge chunks of the level, which in turn breaks other stuff that you have to replace etc. If you want to make the end result just as enjoyable as the real GFZ2, you end up with a totally different level.
4. If you go that far, why not start from scratch? It gives you more freedom while designing the level.

You're using negative words to make something sound negative.

Well, of course. How stupid would it sound if I used positive words to make something sound negative?

 

[glaber]

Circuit mode is just being removed from the OLDC, not from SRB2 itself.

 

[Charybdizs]

Of course it does. Criticism stems from personal opinion. But merely stating your personal opinion doesn't help anybody. Criticism is the act of giving reasons for your personal opinion.

Never said it was much help. :p

That's not possible. Let's use GFZ2 as an example. The question is whether or not the water should be transformed to ice. There are the following options:

1. Stuff
2. Other stuff
3. More stuff
4. And more stuff

You forgot one.

5. Freeze over the water, but leave cracks and holes for access. This would actually add an interesting element to gameplay, because you would have to keep track of where your air supplies were. And in a level where you aren't used to doing so, that could be a bit of an interesting challenge.

Well, of course. How stupid would it sound if I used positive words to make something sound negative?

That would be stupid indeed. But it's not what I meant. :p
I was referring more to the way you called something half assed and didn't explain why it must be half assed. But you fixed that in your last post.

 

[MascaraSnake]

5. Freeze over the water, but leave cracks and holes for access. This would actually add an interesting element to gameplay, because you would have to keep track of where your air supplies were. And in a level where you aren't used to doing so, that could be a bit of an interesting challenge.

Good, now try the same in DSZ.

was referring more to the way you called something half assed and didn't explain why it must be half assed. But you fixed that in your last post.

I thought I already went over that. Oh well.

 

[Senku Niola]

Yes those bushes and flowers will get fixed but only once SFZ itself is done. :x Also you can see colormap screwing up cause I'm not finished redoing all the control sectors, EXCEPT the one that seems to control Red's old house. Also that GFZRock does not exist over there!

 

[rocky]

That's really good. Also, where are the enemies?

 

[Charybdizs]

Good, now try the same in DSZ.

Deep Sea Zone is a different matter. Obviously the rising water rooms couldn't be covered with a sheet of ice, and many of the platforming rooms would become way too easy. But what about adding strategically placed chunks of floating ice to those rooms? They could even replace the regular platforms if you wanted them to, adding some new platforming to it.

And before you even mention Red Volcano Zone, that would be incredibly easy and fairly interesting. Replace the lava with ice water or raging quicksand-ish snow drifts. Though... We don't have any sort of freeze damage in SRB2, do we? That would be a nice touch.

 

[rocky]

Yeah. I like those ideas that you have Charybdizs and you can think really ahead.

You have skills. But the Red Volcano is not supposed to be easy. Interesting perhaps but not easy.

EDIT:Forgot to mention that I love the DSZ idea. Perhaps it could be very useful.