Glaber's Ban and anything Sandwichface related ig

[lnferno]

I can't tell if I'm missing context here or if he's pulling most of this out of the ether. "I gravely underestimated what this community is capable of when it's angry." What does he mean by this? Surely he's not just talking about his ban? I'm not aware of anything more drastic than him getting banned happening, and him getting banned is, well, Thursday all things considered. People get banned as consequences for their behavior from many communities on a regular basis. Did something else happen prompting him to say this, or is it just a massive overreaction? "Despite their best efforts, however, I'm not changing my stances on anything." I haven't seen any context for this either. Which stances of his did the SRB2 community try so hard to make him change? "I'm still standing after all this time." He makes it sound as if he's a victim of the community banding together to take him out or something, which definitely did not happen. If anything, people are far more concerned for his mental well being than they are against him.

Honestly the more I try to understand and rationalize his actions the more my head hurts. I genuinely hope he's able to recover and move past... Whatever it is that's going on with him. It seems like he might be going through some heavy emotions that are clouding his perception of things, and if so I hope he'll be alright.

I'm pretty sure what he is referring to is the sheer hostility everyone exhibited towards him for his behavior, which is honestly just Thursday if you are on these forums. He acted up and got slapped silly by both people trying to civilly address his points and people being ultra-hostile, as was pointed out. If anything, this sort of behavior indicates a sort of focus on thyself to an unhealthy degree, which, as pointed out, is a bad sign for his mental health.

Also, said stances were his unwarranted hostility towards STJr., basically. Not a single person, from what I can recall, actually looked down on him for his critiques. They looked down on him for being toxic and hostile. Whilst I concur that some people absolutely did similar remarks back, and that this wasn't warranted, the main people in the conversation were largely civil, just upset with him. However, he was hostile back, which seems to have been due to feeling under attack from even the more civil individuals. He has likely become so entrenched in believing that he was 'betrayed' that he felt like he was being gaslit or demeaned/mocked. I've had my moments of emotions leading to civil remarks being interpreted as mockery/an attack on me. I typically regret it when it happens, but it does help me to potentially understand why he doubled and tripled down.

I hope I didn't come off as needlessly hostile myself, but I personally cannot stand people who have no ability to reflect on their own actions, even more so now after the obvious. I do hope he eventually is able to reflect on his actions and grow a less "woe is me" world view, but from experience, that is unlikely. People get entrenched in this sort of attitude to the point where the trench becomes a chasm that they can barely see sunlight in, and then grow more and more unhinged over time as people call them out on their behavior, digging the chasm into a crack in the Earth going straight to the core. This can only be halted by self-reflection.

However, as Rolly Polly mentioned, he has fallen into an echo chamber of his own design that will only accelerate this after being thrown out of the community. When there is only people who agree with you on everything in your average day, you become trapped in a feedback loop that radicalizes your own ideas, forging this very self-focus.

Hopefully this can be the finale to this thread.

 

[Octosquid]

One more addendum to this thread, when I made great jungle, Sandwichface made a video about it soon after.
It did have a lot of valid criticisms, but it turned me away from mapping for a bit.
He's saying that he wants the mb to not discourage new modders from modding, but in reality he's doing the exact opposite of that.

He has also said some stuff that was blatantly false and uninformed, like reusability being a GPL violation, when in reality it's actually just the rules for this forum, not the law.

It's not like we've tried to sue the ws or something like that.

Thank goodness we only really have two controversies, and this is one of them.
Thankfully it seems to be coming to a close.

I think that him switching away from srb2 content will help his mental health.
If me watching his videos makes me sad, then who knows what it makes him feel.

 

[shortnameswill]

May I ask what's going on??? I was not here for this and a while of digging has not helped much to find out what happened the last few months I haven't logged on.

(just the facts and the facts only)

 

[ChispiBlast]

May I ask what's going on??? I was not here for this and a while of digging has not helped much to find out what happened the last few months I haven't logged on.

yeah, i also need context

 

[whatdoitypehere75]

May I ask what's going on??? I was not here for this and a while of digging has not helped much to find out what happened the last few months I haven't logged on.

(just the facts and the facts only)

yeah, i also need context

glaber got banned because he got mad at ring racers and insulted the kart krew, thats what i think what happened

 

[27cels]

May I ask what's going on??? I was not here for this and a while of digging has not helped much to find out what happened the last few months I haven't logged on.

(just the facts and the facts only)

Ok so basically glaber got really mad abour DRRR and started to insult and treat the staff badly, so after he got banned and the news broke in the MB sandwichface misread the situation as kart krew getting mad at someone just giving criticism when in reality that just wasn't the case.
Then after that there was this callout post by Charybdizs then sandwichface responded by calling out Chary with some DM stuff but eventually sandwichface got banned and that's where we are now

 

[Johnboy101]

One more addendum to this thread, when I made great jungle, Sandwichface made a video about it soon after.
It did have a lot of valid criticisms, but it turned me away from mapping for a bit.
He's saying that he wants the mb to not discourage new modders from modding, but in reality he's doing the exact opposite of that.

He has also said some stuff that was blatantly false and uninformed, like reusability being a GPL violation, when in reality it's actually just the rules for this forum, not the law.

It's not like we've tried to sue the ws or something like that.

Thank goodness we only really have two controversies, and this is one of them.
Thankfully it seems to be coming to a close.

I think that him switching away from srb2 content will help his mental health.
If me watching his videos makes me sad, then who knows what it makes him feel.

Let's not forget sandwichface made a video about springs and wants to get rid of movement for the diagonal springs and disable the controls when in use. Seriously, how can it be useful for making the diagonal springs in greenflower zone less of an obstacle for new players and making auto spring chains in general? It's stupid if the new players are struggling then here's my tip all they have to do is NOT MOVE AT ALL. It's that simple. Besides movement for diagonal springs gives us more options and paths when we're creative about it. I'm sorry but his video about springs is just ridiculous.

 

[shortnameswill]

Ok so basically glaber got really mad abour DRRR and started to insult and treat the staff badly, so after he got banned and the news broke in the MB sandwichface misread the situation as kart krew getting mad at someone just giving criticism when in reality that just wasn't the case.
Then after that there was this callout post by Charybdizs then sandwichface responded by calling out Chary with some DM stuff but eventually sandwichface got banned and that's where we are now

Alr thanks now i can never look at this thread again

 

[Banjo268]

Wow... looks my thread did it's job huh?
Gotta say I'm shocked how things ended up turning out and the face Sandwichface got banned. Very interesting how you guys respond to opposition here.
I'm not gonna go on a rant blindly fanboying about how Sandwichface is right (that dude has some seriously petty issues with modern SRB2), but at least I wanna pose the question: have any of you guys even tried countering Sandwichface's claims? I have watched almost all of his SRB2 videos, and he actually raises up some good points about either the Thok Debate or Reusability, and mixes it with animosity, but you all can't seem to take it. I want a genuine response to most of Sandiwchface's videos and how he's actually wrong, rather than someone just dismissing it like

He has also said some stuff that was blatantly false and uninformed, like reusability being a GPL violation,

I get that Sandwichface has been hostile to this community with his videos and responses, but could y'all just suck your egos up for one second and watch some of Sandwichface's videos? He has some genuine points that people dismiss because "oh he doesn't respect artists!!" or "he's always lying and spreading misinformation!!"
I get that he's not kind to y'all, but replicating that hostility towards him is not gonna help out. Sucks that he's banned now, so too little too late.
Also don't take this as an attack, this is just a bit of a callout to people.

 

[RedLilyQueen]

... Very interesting how you guys respond to opposition here.
I'm not gonna go on a rant blindly fanboying about how Sandwichface is right (that dude has some seriously petty issues with modern SRB2), but at least I wanna pose the question: have any of you guys even tried countering Sandwichface's claims? I have watched almost all of his SRB2 videos, and he actually raises up some good points about either the Thok Debate or Reusability, and mixes it with animosity, but you all can't seem to take it. I want a genuine response to most of Sandiwchface's videos and how he's actually wrong, rather than someone just dismissing it...

I get that Sandwichface has been hostile to this community with his videos and responses, but could y'all just suck your egos up for one second and watch some of Sandwichface's videos? He has some genuine points that people dismiss because "oh he doesn't respect artists!!" or "he's always lying and spreading misinformation!!"
I get that he's not kind to y'all, but replicating that hostility towards him is not gonna help out. Sucks that he's banned now, so too little too late.
Also don't take this as an attack, this is just a bit of a callout to people.

Calling sandwichface's behavior just "opposition" is disingenuous at best. I get the optics of mods banning someone shittalking the devs, but you have to understand, he was being actively hostile, if not completely malicious, for an extended period of time. If anyone was as hostile to another person on here, they'd just as well be banned- it's against the rules. It just so happens sandwichface's aggression is towards the devs, which makes it seem like a personal vendetta being acted on, when... it isn't, really. Charyb's Clairebun's response notwithstanding, but I doubt they had the final say on banning him, and frankly I don't think they feel or felt stronger than "pretty upset, frustrated, and annoyed".

As for the points sandwichface apparently makes (I wouldn't know any of them, I'm not watching those)- I don't think any of the devs have an obligation to watch the videos of someone with a massive vendetta against them, regardless of what points are made in said videos. It amounts to going out of your way to hear someone shittalk you and what you do, and no one should be doing that. It's not a matter of ego- I don't think listening to an unreasonably harsh detractor is great for anyone's mental health.

You're pretty much right about the returned hostility, at least, but there was pretty little of that overall. And it's worth remembering that mods and devs are human too- mistakes are just part and parcel. It's not unreasonable to end up responding the way Charyb Clairebun did to someone repeatedly talking shit about a passion project you were part of making for free- it is a little unprofessional as a mod and dev, but again, humans make mistakes.

As an aside- dubbing that a 'callout' is... I mean, what, you're calling out... the devs, for... not watching the videos of the guy who unreasonably despises them? That's what it sounds like to me. It's pretty unreasonable to want or expect them to.

 

[amperbee]

have any of you guys even tried countering Sandwichface's claims

If you are in the SRB2 Discord servers, you must have seen people posting his videos whenever they release and sides being taken. It gets discussed for the next hour and then that's the end of it.
So, yeah, people have, practically everytime any of his points are brought up.

he actually raises up some good points about either the Thok Debate or Reusability, and mixes it with animosity, but you all can't seem to take it.
[...]
I get that Sandwichface has been hostile to this community with his videos and responses, but could y'all just suck your egos up for one second and watch some of Sandwichface's videos?

Understand that it is not in many people's interest to take the opinion of someone who acts like an asshole about and around it. They could have made good points, but one's credibility and ability to retain the intended audience dies when their points are laced with vitriol for whatever excuse.
If I were to give you pointers about some random project you're making, everything would be just fine. But if I did that while also treating you like an idiot, or dismissing you for whatever unspecified reason, or giving hints of sarcasm or sneering or similar every few sentences, you'd be less inclined to care about what I have to say regardless of whether I make any good points or not.

There are plenty of optimal ways to deliver criticism, like doing it with a level headed approach through dropping the attitude and avoiding sarcastic or unnecessary remarks, laying everything down as elaborate as you can manage and defending each point that is made, and using the same platform that the people whose criticism is supposed to reach also use.
Like for example, using the community forums to open up discussion instead of throwing rocks from a random YouTube channel.

 

[XtremeXavier]

have any of you guys even tried countering Sandwichface's claims? I have watched almost all of his SRB2 videos, and he actually raises up some good points about either the Thok Debate or Reusability, and mixes it with animosity, but you all can't seem to take it.

That is not the crux of the problem here, mate. He is inordinately hostile apropos of nothing, especially to Charyb, and we've got no obligation to listen to someone who won't show her the respect he apparently thinks his feedback deserves.

I get that Sandwichface has been hostile to this community with his videos and responses, but could y'all just suck your egos up for one second and watch some of Sandwichface's videos?

You're displaying about as much accountability as he did with this angle. I'd venture so far as to say it's straight-up rude.

 

[Charybdizs]

Calling sandwichface's behavior just "opposition" is disingenuous at best. I get the optics of mods banning someone shittalking the devs, but you have to understand, he was being actively hostile, if not completely malicious, for an extended period of time. If anyone was as hostile to another person on here, they'd just as well be banned- it's against the rules. It just so happens sandwichface's aggression is towards the devs, which makes it seem like a personal vendetta being acted on, when... it isn't, really. Charyb's responses notwithstanding, but I doubt they had the final say on banning him, and frankly I don't think they feel or felt stronger than "pretty upset, frustrated, and annoyed".

As for the points sandwichface apparently makes (I wouldn't know any of them, I'm not watching those)- I don't think any of the devs have an obligation to watch the videos of someone with a massive vendetta against them, regardless of what points are made in said videos. It amounts to going out of your way to hear someone shittalk you and what you do, and no one should be doing that. It's not a matter of ego- I don't think listening to an unreasonably harsh detractor is great for anyone's mental health.

You're pretty much right about the returned hostility, at least, but there was pretty little of that overall. And it's worth remembering that mods and devs are human too- mistakes are just part and parcel. It's not unreasonable to end up responding the way Charyb did to someone repeatedly talking shit about a passion project you were part of making for free- it is a little unprofessional as a mod and dev, but again, humans make mistakes.

Not sure which mistakes you think I made in this thread here, but I would heavily question what "professional" means to you if being "professional" means I can't speak up for myself and share my story because I'm staff in a... sonic fangame community. Like uhhh, what's the standard we're trying to meet here? IMO, I'm actually setting a fine example for everyone as a staff figure by making my voice heard.

 

[Tatsuru]

Wow... looks my thread did it's job huh?
Gotta say I'm shocked how things ended up turning out and the face Sandwichface got banned. Very interesting how you guys respond to opposition here.
I'm not gonna go on a rant blindly fanboying about how Sandwichface is right (that dude has some seriously petty issues with modern SRB2), but at least I wanna pose the question: have any of you guys even tried countering Sandwichface's claims?

Have you been paying attention to the thread you made?

Up to the point where he got banned, Sandwichface had ample room to raise his opinions on the forums, gather support and start meaningful discussion, simply because we graced to keep him around. What he decided to do with that time furthered his cause by a grand total of nothing: literally every post he made recently has the sole purpose of slinging shit around, making it pretty obvious to all of us dev and staff that, to him, improving the community and the game(s) comes second to antagonizing us as people.

Then we have this thread, where he was again given the stand to finally make his case on why he hates us so much, so that we maybe would understand his motivations and open a door to conversation about things that matter, but what he did with it you can tell from the thread. He chose to laser focus on some stupid contract he placed on Charyb whose purpose seemed to be solely to hide the fact that he talked to her for some reason, and it didn't even cover that effectively. And then you somehow come to the conclusion that this is how we "respond to opposition"?

Why are you snapping at us for just doing our jobs when it's clear that the guy you're defending is a terrible communicator, an unserious shit-stirrer and a chronic liar? For someone who made a giant thread about having enough of community drama, you actually seem quite invested in it.

 

[Steelie]

Honestly the amount of goodwill STJr. tried to show Sandwichface over this whole situation is staggering and he's not shown a single ounce of gratitude over it. It's a bit disappointing to see another content creator fall into the classic trap of making "critical" and drama alert style videos. It's just easy clicks, people love vitriol and negativity - anyone who's watched the news or spent 5 minutes on Twitter would know that shit's a hit any time anywhere! He himself admitted at some point that he tried being more positive in some videos and they simply didn't do as well.

His open vendetta with STJr. was bizarre to observe, to say the least. Primarily because of how one-sided it was. For the devs and community at large, it was a Tuesday; for him, he's the SRB2 community's public enemy #1 and he's taking a stand! Anytime his videos got posted in the CS, people were quick to either point out his spite, address his points or just groan because they have to deal with another SF video (I was definitely in the last group). The whole debacle around the convo he had with Charyb was so convoluted and melodramatic, I would go as far as speculate that he's a genuine narcissist.

Him getting banned in the end wasn't that surprising. I would really hope that it'd make him finally self-reflect, go outside and realize life isn't constant drama and vitriol over a fangame which is frankly irrelevant in the enormous complexity of the world. I wouldn't hold my breath, as I don't believe he's done with SRB2 as he claims. It's what he built up his career on - whatever said career even was - and it seems crazy to think he's just gonna throw it away over a ban.

I get that Sandwichface has been hostile to this community with his videos and responses, but could y'all just suck your egos up for one second and watch some of Sandwichface's videos? He has some genuine points that people dismiss because "oh he doesn't respect artists!!" or "he's always lying and spreading misinformation!!"
I get that he's not kind to y'all, but replicating that hostility towards him is not gonna help out. Sucks that he's banned now, so too little too late.
Also don't take this as an attack, this is just a bit of a callout to people.

Can I just ask what point are you even trying to make? His criticisms aren't even the objective issue, it's the way he behaves. You've seen it in this very thread you created. Any of his points could've been made just as easily without sounding as spiteful and cynical as his trash bin videos do. At this point I'm amazed the devs still wanted to establish any form of dialogue with him, I don't imagine it must've been good for their mental health.

Save yourself the trouble, my dude. He wouldn't do the same favor for you.

 

[Fenriraga]

I don't know where this whole notion of "Sandwich's SRB2 criticisms are being treated as invalid" is coming from when myself and many others have openly said that it isn't the issue MULTIPLE times. It's the opposite for some. It's all opinion, of course, but there are absolutely points he has made that I've agreed with regarding SRB2 itself. He has very clear knowledge of tools used to make content for SRB2, I think he has a decent perspective on what makes a good level (even if he's too harsh at times), and I (to an extent) do agree with his arguments in favor of the Thok and addons.

The problem here is the very obvious vendetta he has against the team and the absolute unfiltered venemosity that leaks out of every other sentence the dude speaks or types.

Like Tatsuru and Steelie said, he was given VERY ample opportunity to talk about things with the team both in private and here in the forums, and he chose to ignore all of it and instead paint himself as a victim because he treated a discord DM with Chary like an NDA contract when none of it was even disclosed outside of "yeah we talked a bit".

Respect is a two way street, and Sandwich absolutely NEVER showed the team an ounce of it, so why should they? This isn't a case of "two wrongs don't make a right", again, they VERY MUCH gave him the chance to say his peace and he actively threw a fit instead.

Once again, NONE of this is about his criticism of modern SRB2 and never once has this thread been treated as such outside of some people saying they agree/don't agree with his points about the game itself. This is about his (as played out as it is to say) absurdly venemous hate boner towards almost every aspect AND member of current STJR and KK.

As for the stuff with Rob he posted yesterday, doesn't really do much good hearing a single person's take on what was a team effort with no recipts to anything he talked about. That whole bit isn't really my place to get into because there is absolutely no way anyone can or should reasonably gather a conclusion on the goings-on of literal decades of fan game development from the mouth of one guy, no matter his stature.

 

[Super Chris]

I don't know where this whole notion of "Sandwich's SRB2 criticisms are being treated as invalid" is coming from when myself and many others have openly said that it isn't the issue MULTIPLE times. It's the opposite for some. It's all opinion, of course, but there are absolutely points he has made that I've agreed with regarding SRB2 itself. He has very clear knowledge of tools used to make content for SRB2, I think he has a decent perspective on what makes a good level, and I (personally) do agree with his arguments in favor of the Thok and addons.

The problem here is the very obvious vendetta he has against the team and the absolute unfiltered venemosity that leaks out of every other sentence the dude speaks or types.

Like Tatsuru and Steelie said, he was given VERY ample opportunity to talk about things with the team both in private and here in the forums, and he chose to ignore all of it and instead paint himself as a victim because he treated a discord DM with Chary like an NDA contract when none of it was even discosed outside of "yeah we talked a bit".

Respect is a two way street, and Sandwich absolutely NEVER showed the team an ounce of it, so why should they? This isn't a case of "two wrongs don't make a right", again, they VERY MUCH gave him the chance to say his peace and he actively threw a fit instead.

Once again, NONE of this is about his criticism of modern SRB2 and never once has this thread been treated as such outside of some people saying they agree/don't agree with his points about the game itself. This is about his (as played out as it is to say) absurdly venemous hate boner towards almost every aspect AND member of current STJR and KK.

As for the stuff with Rob he posted yesterday, doesn't really do much good hearing a single person's take on what was a team effort with no recipts to anything he talked about. That whole bit isn't really my place to get into because there is absolutely no way anyone can or should reasonably gather a conclusion on the goings-on of literal decades of fan game development from the mouth of one guy, no matter his stature.

As someone who's been watching this whole debacle from the sidelines (and as it's already been said several times before), Sandwichface brought all of this upon himself.

For the Rob thing, it seems as if Sandwichface was trying to twist the narrative about how Rob (and by extension Mystic and Prime 2.0) had all been banned from the SRB2 community nearly four years ago (at the time of this post) due to Mystic baselessly accusing someone of being a groomer and antagonizing a modder, Rob mishandling Mystic's behavior and making threats that would split the SRB2 community, and Prime 2.0's poor admin conduct. Following their bans, people came out with their stories about how they were bullied by the Old Guard in one way or the other as well as some of the new administrative team sharing their traumatic experiences.

That being said: Regardless of what vendettas you have against someone, you are still required to show some level of human decency.

 

[Panda.]

I only played with SandwichFace in Ringslinger ToBeFree's server (2014), and didn't expect all of this would occur... I hope no more drama about what's right to the STJr starts anymore now

 

[clairebun]

Look, many people have already touched on this already -- anyone can have an opinion. I admire when people question game design decisions, and I like to engage people in good faith when they feel they've been wronged by someone in the dev or moderation circles. I don't even have an issue with someone running a Youtube content mill powered by their opinionated SRB2 critiques. Free speech, more SRB2 content, and opposing viewpoints are all things I like to see.

I do have an issue with people who go directly out of their way to harass one or more of our staff members, and I find it very difficult to take them seriously when they play the victim after the amount of steps the other party has taken to build bridges. The contrived NDA of a DM he made didn't even convey what he thought he was conveying, and his crying foul over Charyb "breaking" that mess of legalese does so much to make him look pretentious, self-important, and not super aware of how others perceive him and his behavior. Our community of course is in the business of helping others be more empathetic toward one another, but he's engaged in a lot of attention seeking behavior (the Rob / old guard stuff being a prime example) but not much interest in introspection, which makes me question his ability to engage with our community in good faith. He's like an onion, surrounding himself with so many layers of antagonism that nobody can penetrate through to get rid of the stink.

I've probably made the moderation team's job a little harder by being flippant earlier in this thread, and there's good reason why we don't condone peanut gallery remarks and dogpiling in this community; I still stand by my earlier remarks. At the end of the day, SF hasn't given everyone in this community the respect he wants to receive, and I just don't have much patience for people who act like crybullies for attention. The fact that we still broadly make an effort to respond with civility toward him is a grace that many other communities would not extend to him.

 

[NerfPlayeR135]

Where do I begin with this post mortem?

I wasn't expecting to see Glaber get banned. At all. He'd pretty much been a community staple since I got here, and with good reason - he's incredibly knowledgeable and helpful when it comes to SRB2 and its history. I also felt sympathy for him when I learned about his treatment at the hands of the old guard; it reminded me of my own experiences with bullies during childhood.

Yet it's because I'm relatively new to the community that I wasn't aware of how he dealt with problems. I only got a small peek during the pandemic, when he spread some misinformation on the OS and only backed down when moderators got involved.

Reading what Glaber did in response to the RR tutorial makes me wonder if he's still repressing some of his SRB2-related trauma. I sincerely hope he can work out his issues, and that he'll be granted an appeal one day.

Sandwichface's ban, on the other hand, was a merciful act. To me, it wasn't a matter of "if," but "when." He holds an insane grudge against Sonic Team Jr., Kart Krew, and pretty much anything they're involved with. No one knows why, and he hasn't divulged his motivations. I asked him a couple times and he simply refused to respond.

Just communicating with him gives the impression that he treats the whole thing as some sort of game - a game he has to win. If things don't go his way, he'll stoop to any level to even the playing field. Part of the game seems to involve not telling anyone why he's playing it in the first place - not that anyone else is actually at the table with him.

It's the sort of delusion I've seen before in my personal life, funnily enough. Which makes me sad, because I know that the chances of returning someone like that to reality are slim-to-none. Still, one can only hope.