Circuit Level Rotation - 2.1 Public Beta

[Monster Iestyn]

3.Don't overuse death pits. (In this case, teleporters, which have similar function, especialy when removing lives limit)

Lol, no, the teleporters allow you to "respawn" far more quickly than respawning from dying in death pits.

 

[Kuba11]

Lol, no, the teleporters allow you to "respawn" far more quickly than respawning from dying in death pits

I wouldn't say so. You'll respawn just after pressing jump button. You have some point, because it depends on reflex. The speed of respawning doesn't affect gameplay that much .

 

[MascaraSnake]

I don't think there should be any unbalanced map. It's like tails only ctf map. Interesting, but it doesn't work as official level.

I'll give you a hint: No Race map is balanced. Sonic has a natural advantage due to his speed.

Are you serious? Thanks, I didn't know that, but this "trick?" shouldn't be necesarry.

This is not a trick, I use it all the time to switch characters quickly. And it's not necessary either. You can change your character before intermission, you can change it during the countdown (which should be enough time), or you can just not change your character at all. Of course you won't win if you're not Sonic, but if the other Sonic players are good, you won't win against them in any map as Tails or Knuckles.

1.Forcing accurate platforming can be annoying.

I wouldn't call spring bouncing "platforming", and neither would I say you need to be very accurate. The only exception is the section with the low ceiling, but that will be nerfed, so you won't need to be as accurate anymore. Note how this section says "The tiny platforms in Neo Aerial Garden Zone are the bare minimum, and even those should be used sparingly." The platforms are much larger in this map.

2.Don't neglect sector layout or thing placement for the sake of gimmicks.

I don't see how sector layout and thing placement are neglected in any part of the map.

(Gimmicks should be incorporated into a map, not be the map.) < This sentence was essential.

The map isn't just a bunch of springs over a pit. Careful design went into it. Besides, race maps usually revolve heavily around gimmicks if they have any ;)

3.Don't overuse death pits. (In this case, teleporters, which have similar function, especialy when removing lives limit)

Since the lives limit is removed, "over"using death pits in Race isn't a problem anymore. Besides, the teleporting water isn't overused. If it wasn't there, falling down would trap you. It's not there to add unnecessary difficulty, it's there as a failsafe.

4.Levels always look nicer when they have a perfect amount of scenery. (Water on the floor is the only scenery)

I think that's the perfect amount. Anything else would just add clutter.

5.Balance the detail. (Note: there's no detail)

Great, then it doesn't need to be balanced!

5,5.Scenery should be done both with sectors and Things. (almost the same as above, so I'm not counting it as one)

Since it's done with neither of both, your point is invalid.

6.Don't use too many or too few textures.

There are enough textures in the map. I don't think Sapphire Falls uses many more.

that's actually caused by almost no decorations.

Who needs decoration in this map? It would just add clutter.

I do belive you can add some decorations or platforms to place items (and make competitive possible)]

You mean the gametype Competition? That's supposed to be played on single player maps.

7.Flow is essential to circuit.

Invalid. There is flow.

but if you fail and manage to get back on the platforms, you need a lot of time to stabilize (sometimes it's better to die)]

It's always better to die. Don't waste your time trying to get your balance back.

It's very hard to argue against me on that matter, because I wrote nearly all of the things you quoted ;)

Why do you keep thinking that this stage is disliked only because some players find it too hard?? It's just the way it plays.

I didn't say it's because players find it too hard.

I don't think that's a problem...

You lose. As Sonic, you would win. That's your problem.

 

[Mystic]

Actually, death pits would work fine with infinite lives, but there aren't currently infinite lives, and when I made the stage I came up with the teleport hack as a workaround to the fact that the stage would be terrible if you only had three shots to make it through.

I also don't think you understand what the Level Design 101 article is trying to accomplish. Level Design 101 is a listing of conventions, common mistakes, and guidelines to help beginning and intermediate wadders create better work. It is not a list of hard and fast rules that should never be broken under any circumstances. You just need to know why those guidelines exist by some experience and understanding, and know where the rules can be bent and where they can't. A few examples from the official game that go against parts of that article:

• Techno Hill Zone Act 2 uses a switch to open the exit.
• Deep Sea Zone Act 2 has a room that is a maze on purpose.
• Neo Aerial Garden Zone is a giant level consisting entirely of super-accurate platforming with death pit abuse.
• Sapphire Falls Zone intentionally has way too many rings. Desolate Twilight intentionally has way too few.
• Tidal Palace Zone has an Attraction Shield that doesn't randomly respawn, and Sapphire Falls Zone has a 1-Up.
• Meadow Match Zone is a square map with absolutely no visual detail.

Obviously some of the things listed there are hard rules that should absolutely never be broken under any circumstance, such as always needing a thok barrier and player 1 start, and framerate drop should always be avoided at all costs. However, you can still make a good stage with bad visuals, an overt gimmick that takes over the whole stage, intentionally unbalanced thing layout, or other similar things that we discourage beginners from doing.

Not A Thokfest Zone breaks many of those guidelines, but because of that I took a lot of care to make sure to apply the guidelines I wasn't breaking strictly. Death pits would be unfun and provide instant Game Over, so I set up a teleport hack. The player wouldn't be used to what was going on when it first booted up, so I made absolutely sure that if the player spindashed or thokked at the start, they'd launch up towards the first platform and that the early parts of the stage ease the player into what's going on so they're more likely to be able to actually do it the first time, and definitely manage it the second time. The big problem with a gimmick map is when you don't provide a proper difficulty curve, and while I admit the section with the low ceiling is a bit too hard, I definitely think I did a good job in the first section giving the player the information they need to understand how the map works. I also put in heavy risk-reward with occasional red springs you can use to try to take dangerous shortcuts, especially around corners. I really dislike how a lot of you seem to think no thought and effort went into it just because it's a gimmick map, because nothing could be further from the truth. I take shortcuts on the visuals, not on the planning =P

 

[Kuba11]

Damn, I hate quoting

I'll give you a hint: No Race map is balanced. Sonic has a natural advantage due to his speed.

Change sonic's ability? He wouldn't be that fast then ;). No Im' just kidding, it'd take too much time to apply to all game aspects. You're right.

This is not a trick, I use it all the time to switch characters quickly. And it's not necessary either. You can change your character before intermission, you can change it during the countdown (which should be enough time), or you can just not change your character at all. Of course you won't win if you're not Sonic, but if the other Sonic players are good, you won't win against them in any map as Tails or Knuckles.

I said that I wouldn't have enough time on start line, and I wouldn't know what level will be next during intermission (and after finishing race) ( I wrote about it in previous post). Maybe I'm just slowpoke, idk.
FIRST ARGUMENT:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/srb20000a.png/
It's still challenging and keep in mind that's race mode. If ceiling's gonna be removed, maybe it won't be that hard, but still...
Second argument:
2;4;5;5,5;6 Arguments:
It's just the matter of the opinions. For me everythings looks the same. Just platfolrms, platforms, platforms.... Nothing interesting in visuals.
They were all applying to decorations.

The map isn't just a bunch of springs over a pit. Careful design went into it. Besides, race maps usually revolve heavily around gimmicks if they have any ;)

Careful design is really visible. Actually, a lot of work had to be put into making it not so hard to pass, but it really doesn't change the fact it's a bunch of springs over a pit and I guess that's the main problem of the map. The idea is just bad, not the execution (i mean the way it's made, if i used wrong word)
THIRD ARGUMENT: I didn't mean teleporting water is overused. It's just that you can't recover if you fail. Putting some low platforms should slove the problem. It's also a nice idea for risk vs reward challnge.

You mean the gametype Competition? That's supposed to be played on single player maps.

So that means race maps won't be supported at all?
SEVENTH ARGUMENT:
If you say it's always better to die, I can only... SUGGEST MORE CHECKPOINTS ;). No I'm just kidding.
You just had to touch every single argument, didn't you? ;).

I didn't say it's because players find it too hard.

Right, I thought you meant it.
LAST: THIS POINT IS MINE CUZ I SUCK AS SONIC.

 

[MascaraSnake]

FIRST ARGUMENT:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/srb20000a.png/
It's still challenging

Yup. And it should stay challenging. Just not overly hard. With a nerfed ceiling, it won't be.

For me everythings looks the same. Just platfolrms, platforms, platforms.... Nothing interesting in visuals.

Who needs extraordinary visuals in such a map?

but it really doesn't change the fact it's a bunch of springs over a pit

Sure it doesn't change that. But I think springs over a pit are interesting if you actually bring some variation to it.

It's just that you can't recover if you fail.

Uh, that's exactly what the teleport is there for.

So that means race maps won't be supported at all?

I don't know. But it isn't much fun on Circuit maps.

LAST: THIS POINT IS MINE CUZ I SUCK AS SONIC.

That explains everything.

 

[Kuba11]

Yup. And it should stay challenging. Just not overly hard. With a nerfed ceiling, it won't be.

That made me wondering if it'll be challenging at all if there's no low ceiling.

Who needs extraordinary visuals in such a map?

I do. It's just a matter of opinion.

Sure it doesn't change that. But I think springs over a pit are interesting if you actually bring some variation to it.

I dislike this kind of challange. Again, different opinions.

Uh, that's exactly what the teleport is there for.

Teleporter sends you to the checkpoint and you loose time. I meant something that'll make you loose only a few seconds.

That explains everything.

YAY!

Actually, death pits would work fine with infinite lives, but there aren't currently infinite lives, and when I made the stage I came up with the teleport hack as a workaround to the fact that the stage would be terrible if you only had three shots to make it through.

I agree that teleporters are way better than death pits. They should be kept even with inflite lives.

I also don't think you understand what the Level Design 101 article is trying to accomplish. Level Design 101 is a listing of conventions, common mistakes, and guidelines to help beginning and intermediate wadders create better work. It is not a list of hard and fast rules that should never be broken under any circumstances. You just need to know why those guidelines exist by some experience and understanding, and know where the rules can be bent and where they can't. A few examples from the official game that go against parts of that article:

• Techno Hill Zone Act 2 uses a switch to open the exit.
• Deep Sea Zone Act 2 has a room that is a maze on purpose.
• Neo Aerial Garden Zone is a giant level consisting entirely of super-accurate platforming with death pit abuse.
• Sapphire Falls Zone intentionally has way too many rings. Desolate Twilight intentionally has way too few.
• Tidal Palace Zone has an Attraction Shield that doesn't randomly respawn, and Sapphire Falls Zone has a 1-Up.
• Meadow Match Zone is a square map with absolutely no visual detail.

I do and I chose the ones that I thought will be correct. Besides, I had to find seven of them and that's quite a lot ;). I'ts not like i dislike this level because it breaks some wiki guides. It's just my opinion that actually lines up with wiki advices.

Not A Thokfest Zone breaks many of those guidelines, but because of that I took a lot of care to make sure to apply the guidelines I wasn't breaking strictly. Death pits would be unfun and provide instant Game Over, so I set up a teleport hack. The player wouldn't be used to what was going on when it first booted up, so I made absolutely sure that if the player spindashed or thokked at the start, they'd launch up towards the first platform and that the early parts of the stage ease the player into what's going on so they're more likely to be able to actually do it the first time, and definitely manage it the second time. The big problem with a gimmick map is when you don't provide a proper difficulty curve, and while I admit the section with the low ceiling is a bit too hard, I definitely think I did a good job in the first section giving the player the information they need to understand how the map works. I also put in heavy risk-reward with occasional red springs you can use to try to take dangerous shortcuts, especially around corners.

As I said, teleport is better than death pit. I see that you presented the gimmick very carefully and nobody will be surprised.

I really dislike how a lot of you seem to think no thought and effort went into it just because it's a gimmick map, because nothing could be further from the truth. I take shortcuts on the visuals, not on the planning =P

NO NO NO I thought you know that I understand what challange it is to make playable map with such a gimmick. I just can't enjoy it.
It seems that we misunderstood ourselves a bit.

 

[Krabs]

Change sonic's ability?

This.
10char

 

[MascaraSnake]

This.
10char

nope.avi

Changing Sonic's ability across the whole game would need tons of redesigning just to remove an ability that is actually good. If we went that far, removing the Race gametype altogether would be the better option. But we don't, and that would mean we would need to change Sonic's ability just for one gametype. And that breaks internal consistency.

And Kuba11, what you're saying right now is just "I don't have a tangible problem with the map, I just don't enjoy it". Well, in that case, I don't see why it should be removed from the rotation.

 

[Kuba11]

And Kuba11, what you're saying right now is just "I don't have a tangible problem with the map, I just don't enjoy it". Well, in that case, I don't see why it should be removed from the rotation.

I'll make it simple. Bouncing from springs is bad idea and probbably nothing can change it. Much work was put into this level, but it sadly isn't as enjoyable as other levels.

 

[MascaraSnake]

Bouncing from springs is bad idea

Again, I don't see why. I enjoy it.

 

[Charybdizs]

I'll make it simple. Bouncing from springs is bad idea and probbably nothing can change it. Much work was put into this level, but it sadly isn't as enjoyable as other levels.

Nope. Bouncing from springs is actually a wonderful idea. I personally just think that Not A Thok Fest Zone is a rather dull execution of the idea. That alone is precisely the reason why I'm making This Is A Spring Fest Zone.

 

[fickleheart]

The problem isn't that NATZ is a bad map. The problem is that it relies WAY too much on its gimmick to mesh well with any other map in the rotation. While I do agree that variety is good, if one map sticks out like a sore thumb, it's bound to cause complaints.

"If you don't like it, don't play it" doesn't work, because in a multiplayer game, it's going to come up as a part of the rotation. Don't tell me to "play a different server" either.

The reason the springs cause so many complaints is because no other map in the rotation uses anything similar. If there are fourteen maps of standard circuit, then one gimmick map, it doesn't work.

Don't bring up Meadow Match or Nimbus Ruins either, because as unconventional as they are, they still follow the same basic skeleton a map in the gametype would follow. Even if your strategy changes, the maps still play moderately like their counterparts. NATZ does not.

 

[akb778]

The problem isn't that NATZ is a bad map. The problem is that it relies WAY too much on its gimmick to mesh well with any other map in the rotation. While I do agree that variety is good, if one map sticks out like a sore thumb, it's bound to cause complaints.

^
#1 reason I do not like this map - Poorly executed joke map that relies too much on using springs to get around it.

The reason the springs cause so many complaints is because no other map in the rotation uses anything similar. If there are fourteen maps of standard circuit, then one gimmick map, it doesn't work.

Which is why joke/gimmick maps need not belong in official releases.

Don't bring up Meadow Match or Nimbus Ruins either, because as unconventional as they are, they still follow the same basic skeleton a map in the gametype would follow. Even if your strategy changes, the maps still play moderately like their counterparts. NATZ does not.

Can we bring up Angle Forest? Angle Forest uses the exact same spring gimmick and still manages to be a decent CTF map because it only used that gimmick in certain sections of the map. NATZ, as previously mentioned, uses the spring gimmick too much and, thus, makes it nearly impossible to maneuver for people like me who don't play Race very much.

 

[BotanicJet989]

@SpiritCrusher

Originally posted by SpiritCrusher.
It has A TELEPORT. There is zero chance it will ever be put into the game.

Just to be clear NATZ has A TELEPORT as well.

Originally posted by glaber.
Thrust factor means nothing when you can't even get through a single lap.

I have to agree with glaber but I can't complete a single lap. Thrust factor is important ONLY WHEN USING YOUR FEET NOT WHEN BOUNCING FROM PLATFORM TO PLATFORM!!! Honestly do you even get it?

EDIT :

Originally posted by SpiritCrusher.
Again, I don't see why. I enjoy it.

Just because YOU enjoy it dosen't mean WE will probably enjoy it bone head!

 

[Monster Iestyn]

Honestly, I don't get all this hate for Not A Thokfest Zone. Sure, it may have lots of springs there and there, but does that really make it bad?

Besides, I can think of at least worse case of spring platforming in Circuit back in Nov/Dec 2010's OLDC:

 

[fickleheart]

Iestyn, something else being worse is no excuse.

 

[BotanicJet989]

@redenchilada

Originally posted by akb778.
Can we bring up Angle Forest? Angle Forest uses the exact same spring gimmick and still manages to be a decent CTF map because it only used that gimmick in certain sections of the map. NATZ, as previously mentioned, uses the spring gimmick toomuch and, thus, makes it nearly impossible to maneuver for people like me who don't play Race very much.

Please read the bits in the quote that are bold and that'll explain to you why NATZ is not good. It's not even decent! Angel Forest, which was mentioned earlier, clearly dosen't use the gimmick through the entire map, like NATZ dose except at the checkpoints/ start and finish line! And besides, AFZ is a CTF so it's ok to use this gimmick here.

 

[Monster Iestyn]

@SpiritCrusher Just to be clear NATZ has A TELEPORT as well.

I have to agree with glaber but I can't complete a single lap. Thrust factor is important ONLY WHEN USING YOUR FEET NOT WHEN BOUNCING FROM PLATFORM TO PLATFORM!!! Honestly do you even get it?

EDIT :

Just because YOU enjoy it dosen't mean WE will probably enjoy it bone head!

"Bone head"? That smells like flame bait to me.

Besides, Thrustfactor actually is used even for bouncing on springs, believe it or not.

Besides, NATZ's teleport isn't used in the same way Wacky Tesseract's is used.

 

[glaber]

Well regardless, that Night's race stage was skipped over for I don't know what reason. Who's to say NATZ won't get skipped for the same reason?