Nobody should be using a no-strafe setup, to be honest.
Circuit Level Rotation - 2.1 Public Beta
- Thread starter Blade
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Then how can you expect to be considered any sort of authority on this?
Anyway, my opinions:
Remove Sonic Circuit, or restore the original version of it if you MUST include it. I sincerely hope Not A Thokfest doesn't make it in.
Rainbow Dash Zone is fine, it just needs to be cooler... The whole thing needs to be about 20% cooler.
But in all seriousness, it's a very nice level, and it looks awesome, but it could do with a better choice of music. If you had access to custom music maybe something Daft Punkish or chiptuney, otherwise.. i dunno, the special stage song? In terms of layout it's not much better than Sonic Circuit either. It could be jazzed up a little.
As a whole/for the levels I haven't mentioned, most of the new additions are awesome (i played the pack last night so I can't remember most of my opinions/names). My favourites out of those included the Thunder Factory and Egg Hall levels.
The revamps are also very nice, and I have absolutely no gripes with the levels that weren't changed at all. In fact, it's really nice to have a slice of 1.09.x in there.
This is keeping in mind I haven't actually played 2.0's multiplayer maps yet (I haven't really been hanging around) so I don't know what's different from 1.09.4.
I will say that, yes, part of the reason that I'm criticizing NATF is because I have a tough time maneuvering the jumps. Saying that "this gives you an excuse to learn" should NOT be a justified reason to include it. The other maps don't FORCE you to learn how to thok efficiently if you want to complete it, but learning it will give you an edge over the competition. In NATF, you're given this control-changing gimmick and you'd better be good at it or else you'll never complete the race let alone come in first. And if you CAN'T get good at it, well then I guess you'll just never beat the level.
1. Who said I expect to be considered an authority on this?
2. What does my enjoyment of the gametype have to do with my knowledge on what makes levels for it good? I heard Mystic doesn't like the gametype either, would you also not consider him an authority?
How is the original version any better?
I'm REALLY wondering how any of you are having maneuvering problems on NATF, I'm REALLY just wondering.
It's even possible WITHOUT strafing.
It's even possible WITHOUT strafing.
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Nope.avi
I rock at Spring pads. I was one of the few who didn't have trouble on Angle Forest, and would bounce crazy around on them, sending my pursuers careening into bottomless pits. The only part I had trouble on in NATZ was the part where you must land on the Yellow Springs to have a chance of not falling in the water. Doesn't matter, though, I was still annoyed before I even got there.
For your same reason, we should include Angle Forest in the CTF division, because it teaches people patience, and skill in longer flag runs, instead of being a 10 second jaunt from base to base. Plus, it teaches people spring jumping, leaves a lot of possibility for ambushing, and all that. There's a lot of skills to perfect in it. Now obviously, I don't think Angle Forest should be in the CTF division, I'm just using it as an example.
Just to be clear, i'm going to approach this with the assumption that input regarding character balance might actually be relevant if Blade is indeed in charge of all of these maps.
MAPR0: Race Alley Zone
I'm not sure how you would make this such that other characters stand a chance, besides some sort of retooling of that wind shaft shortcut, but for this map I don't particularly care - it's a decent enough opening map as it is.
MAPR1: Sonic Circuit Zone
Explain this one to me, because if there's redeeming value or anything remotely fascinating here, i'm not seeing it. I suppose it takes some degree of restraint to thok your way through the tunnel properly but come on, that's all there is to this place. Factor in the propensity for lag in netgames and we're left with a boring thokfest whose results will more likely be a crapshoot (or the usually lag-free host dominating) than anything resembling a fair race. Put it in Retro Pack or let it die.
MAPR2: Burning Sands Zone
Unless there's some trick to this with Knuckles i've not discovered, maybe something needs to be done to give him a chance on this map, because I routinely get spanked into the ground here by almost a whole lap, even by Tails users sometimes.
MAPR3: Emerald Coast Zone
Perfectly fine as it is
MAPR4: Toxic Citadel Zone
It's not outright terrible, but it is getting very creaky. It also shuts out the other characters so much that my way of enjoying the map (if you haven't caught onto my mischief in various servers yet) is to just run around the wrong way and see how many laps I can complete before the timer kills me. Er, anyway, this either needs a massive remodelling to be more interesting and up to 2.0 spec, or it needs to be kicked.
MAPR5: Frozen Night Zone
I see there's a shortcut tunnel before the last u-turn now. This mystifies me. The entire rest of the map makes it pretty apparent that anyone not named Sonic has no business trying to win, so the other two are not going to be getting any use out of it; therefore, that leaves Sonic w/ a Whirlwind Shield as the only one it's for. You can't get that shield here without getting lucky on the boxes. (Nor would you want to hit the random box inside the shortcut and risk giving it up.) So... this rather powerful corner-cut is only reserved for lucky people? Does not exactly sound fair or thought through... The remodelling work is quite nice, but the wall texture isn't, and those multicolored pillars seem a tad out of place.
MAPR6: Metallic Hall Zone
Little more texture variety is in order, leave everything else alone.
MAPR7: Heaven Pass Zone
While this is still alright, there's one thing: It has very inviting Tails and Knux shortcuts everywhere, and if you're up against even moderately decent Sonic users, your chances of winning are still totally kaput unless those people die at very fortuitous moments. Something about this does not really gel.
Warped Woods Zone not here
Oh for the love of god, don't tell me you're taking this out? There isn't anything wrong with this map that can't be fixed with a little re-profiling. Specfically, that stupid surprise u-turn after checkpoint 1. You could also tone down the slime patches I suppose to placate the whiners who can't dodge around them, but seriously? Boring rubbish like Sonic Circuit and Rainbow Dash over this? Is this map really doing so much harm?
MAPR8: Corrupt Shrine Zone
See Heaven Pass, but to a lesser extent.
MAPR9: Endless Woods Zone
Knuckles has perhaps more of a hard a time clearing a couple of ledges around here than is worth it, or i'm just not that great at this map. Either way, this is a keeper. Remove the last checkpoint, and take note that if you go overtop of the pillars on either side of the finish line (somehow - you never know), it does not count as finishing the lap.
MAPRA: Egg Hall Zone
Awesome. Renders Toxic Citadel obsolete, really. Perhaps kill the weather if lag is still a problem, and take out the enemies (nobody ever has the chance to notice those easter eggs, honestly). The shortcut path near the end is maybe a little too easy and could use more risk.
MAPRB: Crimson Caves Zone
Awesome (not so much without Volcano Valley BGM), but the lighting effect needs to be slightly - slightly - dialed back. The pillar jump sequence needs to be entirely replaced with something less obnoxious as Neo said.
MAPRC: Thunder Factory Zone
Kick ass as always. Maybe do some texturing to make the areas affected by wind more obvious, and make Sonic's run to the last checkpoint a touch less ruthless.
MAPRD: Rainbow Dash Zone
The fuck what? There is nothing here. It's even worse than Sonic Circuit since the platforms point you at just the right angle to thok at. Only noteworthy for the fact that it makes a mockery of PAZ1, which I guess qualifies it as a joke map then. Throw it out and don't look back.
MAPRE: Not A Thokfest Zone
Look. This was very cute as an OLDC entry, but when taken as a vanilla rotation map that doesn't have Hidden = 1 in the header, the joke ceases to be funny. That section with the low cielings is just cruel, and then comes unpredictable netgame lag to sock you in the gut. Inuyasha told me this map is guaranteed to be in 2.1, which if true is a mistake. If you think people go "AUGH SKIP" about Slumber Circuit too much now (I do), you just wait to see the reaction to this thing.
MAPR0: Race Alley Zone
I'm not sure how you would make this such that other characters stand a chance, besides some sort of retooling of that wind shaft shortcut, but for this map I don't particularly care - it's a decent enough opening map as it is.
MAPR1: Sonic Circuit Zone
Explain this one to me, because if there's redeeming value or anything remotely fascinating here, i'm not seeing it. I suppose it takes some degree of restraint to thok your way through the tunnel properly but come on, that's all there is to this place. Factor in the propensity for lag in netgames and we're left with a boring thokfest whose results will more likely be a crapshoot (or the usually lag-free host dominating) than anything resembling a fair race. Put it in Retro Pack or let it die.
MAPR2: Burning Sands Zone
Unless there's some trick to this with Knuckles i've not discovered, maybe something needs to be done to give him a chance on this map, because I routinely get spanked into the ground here by almost a whole lap, even by Tails users sometimes.
MAPR3: Emerald Coast Zone
Perfectly fine as it is
MAPR4: Toxic Citadel Zone
It's not outright terrible, but it is getting very creaky. It also shuts out the other characters so much that my way of enjoying the map (if you haven't caught onto my mischief in various servers yet) is to just run around the wrong way and see how many laps I can complete before the timer kills me. Er, anyway, this either needs a massive remodelling to be more interesting and up to 2.0 spec, or it needs to be kicked.
MAPR5: Frozen Night Zone
I see there's a shortcut tunnel before the last u-turn now. This mystifies me. The entire rest of the map makes it pretty apparent that anyone not named Sonic has no business trying to win, so the other two are not going to be getting any use out of it; therefore, that leaves Sonic w/ a Whirlwind Shield as the only one it's for. You can't get that shield here without getting lucky on the boxes. (Nor would you want to hit the random box inside the shortcut and risk giving it up.) So... this rather powerful corner-cut is only reserved for lucky people? Does not exactly sound fair or thought through... The remodelling work is quite nice, but the wall texture isn't, and those multicolored pillars seem a tad out of place.
MAPR6: Metallic Hall Zone
Little more texture variety is in order, leave everything else alone.
MAPR7: Heaven Pass Zone
While this is still alright, there's one thing: It has very inviting Tails and Knux shortcuts everywhere, and if you're up against even moderately decent Sonic users, your chances of winning are still totally kaput unless those people die at very fortuitous moments. Something about this does not really gel.
Oh for the love of god, don't tell me you're taking this out? There isn't anything wrong with this map that can't be fixed with a little re-profiling. Specfically, that stupid surprise u-turn after checkpoint 1. You could also tone down the slime patches I suppose to placate the whiners who can't dodge around them, but seriously? Boring rubbish like Sonic Circuit and Rainbow Dash over this? Is this map really doing so much harm?
MAPR8: Corrupt Shrine Zone
See Heaven Pass, but to a lesser extent.
MAPR9: Endless Woods Zone
Knuckles has perhaps more of a hard a time clearing a couple of ledges around here than is worth it, or i'm just not that great at this map. Either way, this is a keeper. Remove the last checkpoint, and take note that if you go overtop of the pillars on either side of the finish line (somehow - you never know), it does not count as finishing the lap.
MAPRA: Egg Hall Zone
Awesome. Renders Toxic Citadel obsolete, really. Perhaps kill the weather if lag is still a problem, and take out the enemies (nobody ever has the chance to notice those easter eggs, honestly). The shortcut path near the end is maybe a little too easy and could use more risk.
MAPRB: Crimson Caves Zone
Awesome (not so much without Volcano Valley BGM), but the lighting effect needs to be slightly - slightly - dialed back. The pillar jump sequence needs to be entirely replaced with something less obnoxious as Neo said.
MAPRC: Thunder Factory Zone
Kick ass as always. Maybe do some texturing to make the areas affected by wind more obvious, and make Sonic's run to the last checkpoint a touch less ruthless.
MAPRD: Rainbow Dash Zone
The fuck what? There is nothing here. It's even worse than Sonic Circuit since the platforms point you at just the right angle to thok at. Only noteworthy for the fact that it makes a mockery of PAZ1, which I guess qualifies it as a joke map then. Throw it out and don't look back.
MAPRE: Not A Thokfest Zone
Look. This was very cute as an OLDC entry, but when taken as a vanilla rotation map that doesn't have Hidden = 1 in the header, the joke ceases to be funny. That section with the low cielings is just cruel, and then comes unpredictable netgame lag to sock you in the gut. Inuyasha told me this map is guaranteed to be in 2.1, which if true is a mistake. If you think people go "AUGH SKIP" about Slumber Circuit too much now (I do), you just wait to see the reaction to this thing.
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If you are playing on an internet server (no SRB2CS), you will have at least some lag. This alone makes the level horribly difficult (if not even impossible). Also, even if you manage to hit the yellow springs in the section with the low ceiling (I do), you will probably hit a wall and fall down into the water.
Yes, you are right, I lack the required skill to hit the springs on a server with control lag. I also lack the skill not to hit the wall after I hit a yellow spring in the section with the low ceiling.
Imagine a relatively new user in this forum who is generally bad at making maps and who is known for his below-average map-making skill made NATFZ. Imagine what would happen if he submitted this map to the OLDC. He would probably get an average of 0-3 points for this map. Maybe it would even be the worst map of the race division of that contest. Such a map has nothing to do in the official rotation!
But the reality is different: The map was made by Mystic. There are even people who like it! There are even users who defend this map, saying that people who criticize it maybe do not have enough skill! O.O
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To be honest, I think the reality is that the people who like NATZ are looking for something different from circuit from those that aren't. While I agree that a few sections are too hard, especially the area with the low ceiling, the idea was to make a gimmick map that was both challenging and different. Many people latch onto the "different" aspect, and either like it or hate it, frequently for the exact same part of the map. Circuit isn't a gametype that really has a big following, and those that DO like it often have completely contradictory things that they look for in stages. Some people actually like thokking carefully in an attempt to take the inside line in Sonic Circuit. Some people actually like trying to get ahead in NATZ by taking risky shortcut attempts. Some people actually like forceskin Tails. The general problem seems to be that nobody can agree on what a good circuit map even is, never mind what should be included with the actual game.
We've already been over how this needs be fixed before the map is added to SRB2's official rotation, so this point is moot.
Look, stop this fucking shit. Stop it right now. I am NOT sticking by this map because it was made by Mystic. I am judging maps based on the maps and not the author. Of course in this case knowledge of the map's author has reached notoriety, but I generally have no idea who made any of the other maps and I don't care while judging them.
If this map had been made by a random noob, I would appreciate it just the same. Please do not label me as a suck-up, thank you very much.
Pretty much every one of the weird things that people do in race stages that you mentioned, is something I've done. :p
I love circuit, and I love new or different ideas, as you've probably seen in my OLDC votes. The issue here is the stage itself, not the idea. It's simply too unexciting. It uses the same concept in a very repetitive way, and when you have to go around the same thing 3 times, it becomes a problem. Now, I know this whole thing is controversial, but that controversy alone should press you to do something about it.
Maybe to show best what I mean, I should make an Antithok Zone of my very own?
Lies! Lies everywhere!
Seriously, I don't get bored of 5 minutes of spring bouncing, and this is quite entertaining spring bouncing. Try to skip some platforms and you'll see what I mean. I do agree that shortening (down to 40-50 seconds per lap instead of ~60-70) wouldn't hurt though.
Fine. You're allowed to have your opinion. doesn't mean that my ideas are lies, though.
That was more of a joke, you know ;)
Autosaver
Member
My favorite from this pack was Egg Hall. I really loved the design, short cuts, and the amount of detail put in the level. Frozen Night was also another good level in the pack.
I really didn't like the Rainbow level, (It was a bit boring, but the theme was a nice choice!) NATFZ (This level took me a while. It got easier when I noticed you could cheat your way with Tails..) and Thunder Factory. (Ugh, those fans really turned me off!)
Sonic Circuit is boring, there is really nothing I know that could improve it without drastically changing the entire level.
I really didn't like the Rainbow level, (It was a bit boring, but the theme was a nice choice!) NATFZ (This level took me a while. It got easier when I noticed you could cheat your way with Tails..) and Thunder Factory. (Ugh, those fans really turned me off!)
Sonic Circuit is boring, there is really nothing I know that could improve it without drastically changing the entire level.
BotanicJet989
Member
I have to agree with steel on this one as clearly it seems nobody really likes sonic circuit that much anymore, besides it's pretty short and crappy and its always kept the same textures since it came out! Come on you gotta change or remove the map!
Uh...
Oh, and this is from the version of Sonic Circuit Zone back in 1.09.4, by the way.
...you know that it has been, in fact, changed, right?
BotanicJet989
Member
Egg Hall Zone : Pretty good. It has really good mapping. The creator is an awesome mapper.
Sonic Circuit Zone : I did NOT know that it was changed as I did not try it yet. The new textures are awesome! And it's now GHZ-themed which I like!
Thunder Factory Zone : This is awesome. But the fact that the fans are there really bug me. Tails & Knux cannot beat them because they lack speed. Other than that, good job!
Rainbow Dash Zone : All I will say is you could change the music to tunes 29. It's a rainbow not doomsday! But it's a good map.
Not a thok fest : I'll just say this is alright but this is clearly a joke map for sonic players, as this is a huge dissapointment to sonic as it's harder for him.
Sonic Circuit Zone : I did NOT know that it was changed as I did not try it yet. The new textures are awesome! And it's now GHZ-themed which I like!
Thunder Factory Zone : This is awesome. But the fact that the fans are there really bug me. Tails & Knux cannot beat them because they lack speed. Other than that, good job!
Rainbow Dash Zone : All I will say is you could change the music to tunes 29. It's a rainbow not doomsday! But it's a good map.
Not a thok fest : I'll just say this is alright but this is clearly a joke map for sonic players, as this is a huge dissapointment to sonic as it's harder for him.
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