Do you think Aerial Garden and Azure Temple are still salvageable?

Personally, I think that AGZ has long overstayed its welcome, and should return to being part of the Mystic Realm revamp. However, the assets which are now in the base SRB2 (and also Kart) would be here to stay. And personally, I think I'd rather see a level more inspired by the Babylonian Gardens, which I think is what AGZ originally might had taken inspiration from... I dunno though - I can't remember if Sonic Riders was out before Mystic Realm was developed. It's just that, while Mystic was on the team, the chances of that happening were slim to none. Although if it wasn't for AGZ, we wouldn't have the current CEZ. Still, like the SRB1 Remake, it's time for the relic of the past to return to the past, if you ask me.

As for ATZ... I've never completed that map myself. So I can't honestly give my opinion on that map.

Fun note, the "Act 1" part of Aerial Garden Zone actually dates back to January 2002 (for reference, Demo 4.1 had only just been released), and was originally split into two acts. So some parts of AGZ actually are nearly 20 years old now, huh.

I've nothing to really add that hasn't already been said here tbh. The stage definitely is showing its age, it was good for its time but understandably it may not be considered up to current standards anymore.

Meanwhile, the main problem I've always had with ATZ personally is the ending path split. The gargoyle route is laughably easy compared to the rest of the level, and I've never personally managed to beat the fan path.

Monster Iestyn said:

The gargoyle route is laughably easy compared to the rest of the level, and I've never personally managed to beat the fan path.

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The fan path isn't that hard when you get a hang of it (yes, I know you could say that about anything...)

The tricky part of it is that it actively punishes you for being cautious. If you stop over a fan vent, you either won't have enough momentum to continue or you'll go too high and be blocked by the ceiling. If you just kind of... hold forward and pass over each fan in turn, it all works out.

The problem is that dying to it once leads you to be more cautious the next time, and then the level punishes you for that, leading to a spiraling loop of deaths.

cookiefonster said:

I like when difficult platforming is required to continue a level's upper path, and falling off is punished by knocking you onto a lower path. I don't like as much when tight platforming (especially over a death pit) is the only way to get through an area, and the majority of Aerial Garden is exactly that.

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Agreed. Perhaps that would be a way to salvage/redesign it? I'd enjoy AGZ way more if the punishment for missing a jump was being restricted to the low path. Maybe some of the jump puzzles can improved and then placed over more level geometry so that the primary risk is falling into a less rewarding route or losing progress, rather than landing in a pit.

Azure Temple is challenging in a pretty creative way, and while it could use some tweaks and maybe some clever implementations of slopes, I really like it.

I fully support the idea of salvaging the themes at least. An ancient floating temple/garden is pretty unique and offers plenty of opportunity. AGZ itself is really a relic of a distant past, though -- and with the, uh, "revisions" Mystic has been giving it every 2.x update somehow made it worse every time (seriously, what's so wrong with blue springs?). In that case my take would be to replace it with a new stage, possibly with the same or inspired theme with unique gimmicks and a set of enemies. Serpahic Skylands, like other people mentioned, is a perfect candidate. And I believe I've heard that sphere has plans to continue improving it, if he isn't already doing so.

As for ATZ, I have very few good things to say about it. The stage is brutal and unfun. The creative gimmicks and puzzles in some rooms don't present enough incentive to suffer tight underwater platforming or the awful gargoyle corridors. Not to mention a water temple theme has been done to death, unlike AGZ. I would prefer if it has been completely scrapped in favor of a brand new challenge stage.

But it's all subjective, really. Just my two cents.

Aerial Garden is something I wouldn't be sad to see die and have something else rise from the ashes. A sky temple level is a good idea, but there's nothing about AGZ's design that I'd want to keep, and unlike others here, I don't like anything about its aesthetic in practice, only in theory. Get more color and variety to the temples, give it a skybox that isn't incredibly pixely, and if at all possible have more of the "garden" shine through. Make me feel like I'm exploring ancient echidna history that's been reclaimed by nature.

As for Azure Temple, I'm sort of in two minds about it. On the one hand, it's the hardest level in the game, and is meant to be the hardest level in the game. With my save file having 99 lives on it (thus giving me no chance to get game overs) I don't even really get that frustrated with it, I can only make progress between checkpoints (actually, maybe lives and gameovers can just go away in general?). On the other hand, a hard stage that also utilizes the game's mechanics instead of just being precision platforming with an occasional object-sliding puzzle would go a long way in making it more fun. Haunted Heights is probably a good template to work off of. Actually, every challenge or bonus level in the game should try to match Haunted Heights or Forest Fortress in terms of scale and quality.

Unknownlight said:

The fan path isn't that hard when you get a hang of it (yes, I know you could say that about anything...)

The tricky part of it is that it actively punishes you for being cautious. If you stop over a fan vent, you either won't have enough momentum to continue or you'll go too high and be blocked by the ceiling. If you just kind of... hold forward and pass over each fan in turn, it all works out.

The problem is that dying to it once leads you to be more cautious the next time, and then the level punishes you for that, leading to a spiraling loop of deaths.

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You gave an interesting criticism of the fan section, and I'd like to add onto it. It feels like that section is going entirely against how the rest of the zone requires you to be extremely careful and patient to get through the hazards: with the fans at the end, the solution is to speed through them and not look back. Which is good in itself—Sonic games have always been themed upon speed! But it feels at odds with all the other challenges the zone presents, which is probably a big part of why people (myself included) have so much trouble with that section. Instead of a grand culmination of all the hazards the zone has taught you to master, it's an abrupt gear shift into a totally different gameplay style. As I said earlier in this thread, Azure Temple would greatly benefit from having its gimmicks mixed up instead of presented one at a time.

I think that the small teeny tiny platforms in AGZ are a matter of taste. I don't like them personally, but that's just my own taste.

I think the level is very, very difficult to navigate. I often found myself in an area that I had seen previously and said, "Oh, I guess I went backward." The level doesn't have meaningful landmarks that I can orient myself around.

In other words, I think that the working mental map that I made of AGZ while playing it became too abstract. "Okay, paths are here, and then they branch. I'm on the left path, and I came from that doorway, so I shouldn't go back there." Most of the time, my mental maps are more intuitive, because the place of the level is more memorable.

I played the stage as Tails (because I didn't like the platforming), and the navigation left a bad taste in my mouth anyway.

I'm glad that SRB2 has Mystic Realm music in it, and I'd like to see it kept in the core game as an asset for level designers.

I'm okay with preserving Mystic Realm as addon content (either for preservation, nostalgia, or genuine enjoyment), but I don't think that a level of this quality belongs in the base game.

My own nostalgia for AGZ comes from Mystic Realm netgames circa 2006 or so. People want to play coop, so they load up the most substantial campaign that existed, and then everyone gulps when they realize they have to beat AGZ at the end of the pack.

Egg Rock Zone, while it's still a little outdated (and the bulk of the work has stood for ten years at this point), is much more fun than AGZ. ERZ uses gimmicks to create difficulty, and AGZ is just teeny tiny platforms.

[edit] I also agree that the texture selection is bad. Using a 128x128 texture over large surfaces looks bad from a distance.

I just beat Azure Temple with Sonic and it felt great. I don't mind a really difficult level, it's a hyper level after all and it takes everything you learned from playing previous levels. I wouldn't mind a rework though now that slopes are in place.


Personally Aerial Garden makes me feel nostalgic due to playing it back then in 1.09.4 but to be honest there's Mystic Realm if you want to play it, there's no need having the same level in vanilla SRB2 (I know there are the bees... but still.). It just feels like a waste of space for something that could be another level.



I just hope there will be more challenge stages in the actual final version. D: Haunted Heights is awesome and I love the music, I assume it's a super level? Was pretty easy but I love it!


(As far as I know there will be 3 super stages and 3 hyper stages?)

The biggest problem with Aerial Garden is that it looks and feels like a level from the 1.08-1.09.4 era, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it means that it's a bit jarring to play a level that's mostly featureless hallways and small platforms over a death pit, because this is all we knew when it came to making a difficult level. The devs have done a great job trying to update the aesthetics and gameplay of it but at the end of the day it's still an assortment of levels made in the early- to mid-2000's and it shows badly. It would need a THZ2 style complete remake from the ground up to fit in with the main campaign and I'm not sure it's worth trying to preserve at this point.

Azure Temple has some design flaws that should be remedied but overall it is a stronger level and its design fits more with modern SRB2 standards than AGZ.

I still haven't beaten Azure Temple. I've tried a bunch. Eventually I get tired of dying and stop and replay the levels I do like instead.

I like Aerial Garden in theory; I beat it only once with S&T, and have tried multiple times with Knux and others to collect all emblems. But then I usually just die enough times to get tired of it.

ATZ and AGZ have a lot of the same problems as ERZ, in that its level design strategy is to provide players with forks in the road and force them to engage in platforming challenges where death is the punishment for failure. This is antithetical to the level design that makes classic Sonic what it is, where platforming and alternate paths are intrinsicly linked -- which not only allows for more dynamic and fairer difficulty, but it's also more compelling level design and flows better. There are a lot of other issues, but this is the one that sticks out in my mind and has a lot to do with the overall level structure being incompatible with what we need from them.

Restructuring ATZ, AGZ, and ERZ to match current level design standards would be a tall order, so I imagine their map layouts are likely unsalvageable.

I've mentioned before but I really dislike bottomless pits in general in Sonic games, and that's a reason specifically for my dislike of ACZ1 and ERZ especially these two.

One of the best examples in level design on SRB2 that I've seen recently on how to do "bottomless pits" that don't kill you is in the GFZ-Expansion pack. that uses the pink goo from CP instead of a death pit.

I'd say that, since Mystic is no longer welcome, we revamp its appearance to stand out more from the current AGZ while still keeping in touch with the original aesthetic, if you get what I mean. What made AGZ so iconic was its level length, and I think that should be its biggest strength; I think AGZ should definitely be more challenging, perhaps more slopier (like forcing the player to run on curved runways over pits) to really emphasise that this place is as dangerous as it is beautiful.

Tl;Dr: no

Longer version: How about ditching Aerial Garden then making a newer version with the same theme but an entirely newer layout and call it something like "Neo Aerial Garden"

As for Azure Temple I find it a bit too hardcore but it's not entirely impossible to do (I even find the 2.2 version to be a bit easier).

I would suggest to make those bonus stages not mandatory to 100% complete the game by removing the emblems related to them.

Moose the Fat Cat said:

I've mentioned before but I really dislike bottomless pits in general in Sonic games, and that's a reason specifically for my dislike of ACZ1 and ERZ especially these two.

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I'm sorry but those are a core design element in the series as a whole. I may agree that the Adventure game had a big flaw about making water act as a bottomless pit but those are what made Sonic games (since the very first game to Forces and Mania).


I'm all for allowing players to recover from a fall but it shouldn't be removed entirely.

Icarus said:

I'm sorry but those are a core design element in the series as a whole. I may agree that the Adventure game had a big flaw about making water act as a bottomless pit but those are what made Sonic games (since the very first game to Forces and Mania).

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I mean, I just remembered, CD had a total of one bottomless pit, in the final stage of the game.
Also, while I am definitely okay with AGZ and ATZ being replaced(ATZ in particular is not only I feel way too hard but also the theming is just...boring.) I dunno how I'd feel about removing Emblems. I think the levels should be fair and the Emblems should be fair. Besides, I actually enjoy Haunted Heights and look forward to finding the Emblems there.

CobaltBW said:

ATZ and AGZ have a lot of the same problems as ERZ, in that its level design strategy is to provide players with forks in the road and force them to engage in platforming challenges where death is the punishment for failure. This is antithetical to the level design that makes classic Sonic what it is, where platforming and alternate paths are intrinsicly linked -- which not only allows for more dynamic and fairer difficulty, but it's also more compelling level design and flows better. There are a lot of other issues, but this is the one that sticks out in my mind and has a lot to do with the overall level structure being incompatible with what we need from them.

Restructuring ATZ, AGZ, and ERZ to match current level design standards would be a tall order, so I imagine their map layouts are likely unsalvageable.

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I agree with this statement, and it's good to bring up ERZ as a similarly dated example. 2.2's iteration of RVZ1 proves that it is possible to make a difficult stage filled to the brim with hazards while still incorporating the complex, multilayered level design style that made classic Sonic so great. There's certainly room for improvement in that zone (not as many paths, shields, or secrets as other zones), but it's still one of my favorite levels in the entire game. I hope to see ERZ and the challenge stages eventually get a similar upheaval.

I personally like AGZ just fine. I don't think it's above being remade into something with a better layout, though. It's probably quite overdue for one these days since AGZ's hat was being the game's largest level but now CEZ2 makes it look like a chump. Hah, the one bit of criticism I gave on the official level rating thread was that the level could stand looking more garden-like and it's fun seeing that that seems to be an universal opinion. Hell, if a remake is made, I want y'all to go even further - make the bees feel more like a part of the level by incorporating the unused beehive texture set somehow. Like, maybe the last portion of the level could take place inside a giant beehive somewhere in the garden and it's full to the brim with bees. That'd be lovely.

As for ATZ, that one more's difficult because it's a really annoying level but since that's the idea, I don't feel like that's a valid complaint. I 100% agree with the notion that the fan path at the end needs to get trashed though. The Glaregoyle puzzle path can stay as the "slow, safe" option.

NeonSynth said:

(As far as I know there will be 3 super stages and 3 hyper stages?)

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According to the wiki, that's no longer the plan. There's only "challenge stages" now and there's no hard number of how many there's going to be.

Even when completely divorcing my opinion of the author...

Nope.

Aerial Garden is a bunch of blocks in the sky, when level design was way more archaic. Any attempt at making Aerial Garden anything but a bunch of blocks in the sky with some grass on it would be effort better put towards making an entirely different level. Azure Temple is a super slow, plodding experience becuse the whole concept is being underwater from beginning to end, slowly going around traps and instantdeath pits while trying not to drown, and with sluggish movement. I'm sure there's better ways to do an entirely underwater level, and again, you're better off disassociating it with the original level so you have more room for more experimental theming.

...You know what'd make a better choice of level theme to use those Hive Elementals for?

Honey Hive zone?