SA1/2 physics

[Morphized]

Keep in mind that every loop in Sonic Adventure is heavily scripted. In a proper physics engine this wouldn't be necessary.

Except it isn't necessary. They just couldn't get invisible walls to work very well, and couldn't render enough level at a time to allow you to not die when you fail a loop.

 

[Icarus]

I'm not making the argument Sonic Adventure's hub world is good, only the fact that it being a hub world at all isn't the real issue. Whatever "instant action" means, Mario 64 is still an action platformer just as Sonic Adventure is one. Mario unlocking doors with stars on them and jumping into paintings doesn't slow down the gameplay in the way that Sonic Adventure's hub world does, so the problem is clearly in the execution. Take the RPG elements and realism out of the equation if that's what the problem is.

I don't even care whether Sonic games have hub worlds or not, but "Sonic is about speed and hub worlds are slow" is lazy and reductive. It's easy to imagine a kind of hub world that's functional for Sonic with a little bit of nuance.

I am very thankful that SRB2 doesn't have a hub and that the next level is instantaneous.


Also Mario 64 doesn't have the same game design and spirit.

 

[Linlam]

Sonic should be about instant action, not "go to point A in a city to get some key to go to point B" while having realistic humans in a realistic city (which does not make sense at all).


No wonder why Classic fans disliked Adventure (rightfully) because Sonic is a platformer with an emphasis on speed, not a RPG-esque action/adventure game a la Zelda.


Anyway the thread is over to me, SRB2 is how Sonic in 3D must be, not what Sonic Team has made in those last decades.


Thanks for the conversation.

I disagree a little bit. Sure, Sonic is a platformer and the main concern of the developers should be the physics and level design. However, I think a good story could make a Sonic game much better.

It's been a while since I played SA1, but I consider SA1's story a good example of what a good Sonic plot is. It expands on the lore by a lot, it's not too linked with one or two characters, and it's not complex, but it's not simple either.

I also like how the story of SA1 is fragmented in individual stories, I find this way of dividing the story better than SA2's way. Even though some characters have little to none importance to the overall plot, I still find it really interesting to play these stories (except for Big of course).

In conclusion, I think a good sonic game should at least consider a good plot, one reason that I don't like Sonic Generations very much is because of the overly simple story. SA1's plot for me is better than SA2's and it's a good model to SEGA if they want to make a SA3 someday.

 

[Yuri ProMonkey]

Oh no. This is not great.

 

[Just Silus!]

Oh no. This is not great.

Wha-
What do you mean "This is not great"???

Spoiler: haha yes, edited

(oh wait i am sooooooooo idiot that i didn't noticed this is a thread for conversation, not a mod thread, ha... ha... ha... my stupidity has no limits)

 

[Yuri ProMonkey]

I mean this fragmented to Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. Bruh.

Post automatically merged: Mar 5, 2021

I mean this fragmented to Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. Bruh.

This is another method. Sega needs to do a new Sonic game. Sonic Adventure 3, but does Sega releases the game on Nintendo Switch.

Post automatically merged: Mar 5, 2021

Yep. But I have to watch YouTube now. Ok?

 

[Augus]

I think Sonic Adventure 1's movement actually got a lot of things right considering that it was released in 1998 and there was no blueprint for 3D Sonic. Sonic accelerates at a reasonable pace, when rolling downhill he gains speed and when rolling uphill he loses speed, jumping at the right time can carry his upward momentum into a much higher jump, it feels good to control him. Issues start popping up when it comes to collision detection in certain areas, but Sonic himself controls pretty well.
While most loops in the game are automated, Sonic is actually fully capable of doing this on his own using just his momentum. Like with this secret in Final Egg, which requires Sonic to go up a half-loop using a spin dash to get to a hidden cache of rings (timestamp 11:50)

The large amount of scripted loops is probably more to deal with the fact that the back of a loop would block the camera, and there's also nothing to stop a player from just jumping through a loop instead. The physics are hacky and primitive, sure, but they definitely are working here and you won't see many games from 1998 where this kind of movement is possible. It was pretty damn impressive when it came out. The problem is that future 3D games didn't improve upon this foundation, they devolved.

I think the hub worlds in Adventure are fine. I didn't like them in Unleashed or 06 but in Adventure they made the world feel a lot bigger and more lived-in. They were nice playgrounds to run around with Sonic, getting the hang of the controls in a safe environment and finding objects to do jumps off of. If you just wanted to mainline the story it never took more than a few seconds to run where you needed to be, since unlike in Unleashed Sonic isn't slowed down or restricted in any way while running between level. The music is nice too and some of the NPCs actually have some funny stuff to say or neat little nods to continuity. I still play this game on Steam with the Dreamcast conversion every now and then and always have a great time, and the hub worlds have never felt like they slowed the game down like people say they do.

 

[Samups]

Creo que el movimiento de Sonic Adventure 1 realmente acertó en muchas cosas considerando que fue lanzado en 1998 y no había un plan para 3D Sonic. Sonic acelera a un ritmo razonable, cuando rueda cuesta abajo gana velocidad y cuando rueda cuesta arriba pierde velocidad, saltar en el momento adecuado puede llevar su impulso ascendente a un salto mucho más alto, se siente bien controlarlo. Empiezan a surgir problemas cuando se trata de la detección de colisiones en ciertas áreas, pero el propio Sonic controla bastante bien.
Si bien la mayoría de los bucles en el juego están automatizados, Sonic es en realidad completamente capaz de hacer esto por sí solo usando solo su impulso. Como con este secreto en Final Egg, que requiere que Sonic suba medio bucle usando un tablero giratorio para llegar a un caché oculto de anillos (marca de tiempo 11:50)
[MEDIA = youtube] um1QjzmuQo4: 710 [/ MEDIA]
La gran cantidad de bucles con guión probablemente se deba más al hecho de que la parte posterior de un bucle bloquearía la cámara, y tampoco hay nada que impida que un jugador simplemente salte a través de un bucle. La física es hacky y primitiva, claro, pero definitivamente están funcionando aquí y no verás muchos juegos de 1998 donde este tipo de movimiento es posible. Fue bastante impresionante cuando salió. El problema es que los futuros juegos 3D no mejoraron sobre esta base, sino que se trasladaron.

Creo que los mundos centrales de Adventure están bien. No me gustaron en Unleashed o 06, pero en Adventure hicieron que el mundo se sintiera mucho más grande y más vivido. Eran buenos patios de recreo para correr con Sonic, dominar los controles en un entorno seguro y encontrar objetos para hacer saltos. Si solo deseaba poner en línea la historia, nunca tomó más de unos segundos correr donde tenía que estar, ya que, a diferencia de Unleashed, Sonic no se ralentiza ni restringe de ninguna manera mientras se ejecuta entre niveles. La música también es agradable y algunos de los NPC en realidad tienen algunas cosas divertidas que decir o pequeños asentimientos a la continuidad. Todavía juego este juego en Steam con la conversión de Dreamcast de vez en cuando y siempre lo paso muy bien, y los mundos centrales nunca se sintieron como si hubieran ralentizado el juego como dice la gente.

The truth was you were quite accurate, I totally understand what you mean and I think the same, except for some things.

But basically I admit that Sonic Team could have perfected the main formula, as has Mario and even Crash.

 

[Icarus]

Excuse me but why are people so eager to defend the game?

Adventure 1 tried too much to add several gameplay style and it became a Style over Substance type of game.

We didn't need treasure hunting, we didn't need fishing.

This review sums up pretty well the main flaws of the game.

PS: if Sega actually focused more on Sonic's level and gameplay over adding RPG elements (like the hub) and other playstyle/stories it would've been much more polished.

 

[Augus]

Excuse me but why are people so eager to defend the game?

Adventure 1 tried too much to add several gameplay style and it became a Style over Substance type of game.

We didn't need treasure hunting, we didn't need fishing.

Because it's a fun game with a lot of things to like about it. Even if you hate playing every single character besides Sonic (I personally enjoyed the Tails, Knuckles, and Gamma stages), Sonic's story is by far the longest one. It has the most stages and the longest stages and is a fun ride from beginning to end. Fishing takes up an incredibly small portion of the time you'll spend in gameplay in comparison.

I don't disagree that the game would've benefitted from being more focused so they could polish a single style but the game we got is still great.

 

[Icarus]

Because it's a fun game with a lot of things to like about it. Even if you hate playing every single character besides Sonic (I personally enjoyed the Tails, Knuckles, and Gamma stages), Sonic's story is by far the longest one. It has the most stages and the longest stages and is a fun ride from beginning to end. Fishing takes up an incredibly small portion of the time you'll spend in gameplay in comparison.

I don't disagree that the game would've benefited from being more focused so they could polish a single style but the game we got is still great.

Guess why Sega decided to only put Sonic as the playable character for 10 years?

That's right, they weren't able to actually put Tails and Knuckles in mind when they made the level design of their game.

Shadow is just a copy of Sonic so he's barely relevant gameplay wise and the last time they tried putting a different character they ended up being mediocre or not interesting (the Avatar in Forces was wasted potential, like the rest of the game).


PS: I don't hate Sonic Adventure nor modern/3D Sonic games but Sega had made me upset because of how they mishandled their franchise for decades.

Sonic Robo Blast 2 is the game that made me go back to the series and I'm really thanksful you did everything right about the series.

 

[Augus]

Guess why Sega decided to only put Sonic as the playable character for 10 years?

That's right, they weren't able to actually put Tails and Knuckles in mind when they made the level design of their game.

Shadow is just a copy of Sonic so he's barely relevant gameplay wise and the last time they tried putting a different character they ended up being mediocre or not interesting (the Avatar in Forces was wasted potential, like the rest of the game)

Why are you being so combative lol I just think Sonic Adventure is a fun game. I'm well aware of its flaws and the direction the series has taken over the past two decades, it's still a great game.
It's more productive to take a closer look at what did and didn't work about a game then to dismiss it as garbage and reflexively avoid anything that might be associated with it. Sonic Team has often taken that kind of reactionary approach with their games and they just create new problems through overcorrection.

 

[Bananasplits]

I thought the adventure hate had died off. This thread has proven me wrong. Go back to Sonic Forces if you don't want to actually play a sonic game with fun playstyles.

 

[Icarus]

Why are you being so combative lol I just think Sonic Adventure is a fun game. I'm well aware of its flaws and the direction the series has taken over the past two decades, it's still a great game.

I'm not being "combative". I just explain the problems with those game.

It's more productive to take a closer look at what did and didn't work about a game then to dismiss it as garbage and reflexively avoid anything that might be associated with it. Sonic Team has often taken that kind of reactionary approach with their games and they just create new problems through overcorrection.

And it's a good thing to avoid the problems linked to those game. The Sonic Team hasn't taken any real approach to the series.

I thought the adventure hate had died off. This thread has proven me wrong. Go back to Sonic Forces if you don't want to actually play a sonic game with fun playstyles.

I said that I didn't hate the Adventure games (well, at least not the first) and Forces is the modern game that got closer to the Adventure ones (especially SA2 with 3 gameplay style and a more serious story).

Mania is the recent game everyone should go back (and how the series should focus on) along with SRB2.

 

[Linlam]

We didn't need treasure hunting, we didn't need fishing.

I agree with the fishing part, but I find the other game modes really fun to play. I think the reason why is because we have different opinions of what Sonic is. To me, Sonic is a momentum based platformer that rewards speed, exploration and knowledge of the controls and levels. I don't think Sonic is all about speed, speed is a good part of it, but not the main thing. When I play the classic games, I want to explore the levels, going fast isn't as fun as finding new paths.

Having said that, I love SA1's hunting stages, it's a really good way to put Knuckles in the game. This level lets you explore an area going fast, and I love it. The only problem I have with the hunting stages it that the levels are too easy, I would have found it perfect if the stages were bigger.

The other gamemodes are also a lot of fun. I think the weaker ones are Tails' and Big's stories, but the other ones are pretty fun and interesting. Amy's moveset with the Piko Piko Hammer is really fun to me, Gamma's shooting stages are awesome (and his story too) and I've already talked about Knuckles.

Saying that SA1 has style over substance is, at the very least, unfair, the gameplay is good (though there are some big problems with collision), the majority of the other play styles are fun and interesting to play (I love to bounce around with Amy) and the story, in my opinion, is the best in the series. I will say that the hub worlds are unecessary, but it has its charm.

 

[Bananasplits]

and Forces is the modern game that got closer to the Adventure ones (especially SA2 with 3 gameplay style and a more serious story).

Mania is the recent game everyone should go back (and how the series should focus on)

Wrong. 06 (no matter if you hate or like it) is much closer to the adventure games than forces could ever dream of. Also, If the series is going to focus on mania, a game which there are barley any original stages or ideas, the series is headed towards it's doom.

 

[Augus]

I'd say Lost World, not Forces, is the game that comes closest to Adventure out of the modern games in that it is actually trying somewhat to be a 3D platformer.

 

[time gear]

I'd say Lost World, not Forces, is the game that comes closest to Adventure out of the modern games in that it is actually trying somewhat to be a 3D platformer.

It also brings back (in a limited capacity) the bounce, and the Spindash is the best it's been in 3D since SA2, not counting fangames.

 

[Samups]

¿Adivina por qué Sega decidió poner a Sonic solo como personaje jugable durante 10 años?

Así es, no pudieron pensar en Tails y Knuckles cuando hicieron el diseño de niveles de su juego.

No creo que sea una buena razón para dejar de lado la jugabilidad de otros personajes, después de Adventure, con la llegada de Sonic 06, hubo una jugabilidad increíblemente fluida.

I really enjoyed playing with ALL the characters, Tails and Knuckles felt even better than in other games. In this case, I would like the Momentum to return, this mechanic allows you to go fast with any character (some will go easily faster than others) but if there is something I appreciate about these games it is that the player is fast, regardless of whether you are Tails , Knuckles or Silver. On the other hand, with a gameplay with Boost, it is terribly ugly to change the gameplay so drastically, and the level design would be very different.

 

[Linlam]

It also brings back (in a limited capacity) the bounce, and the Spindash is the best it's been in 3D since SA2, not counting fangames.

I haven't played Sonic Lost World, but judging from the let's plays I've watched, it doesn't really seem like a Sonic game. Sonic is pretty slow and there's a running button (if I remember correctly). I don't think it's possible to compare the modern era games with the Adventure games (the same way I think the classic games can't be compared with the Adventure games). These 3 eras are too different to have correlations in my opinion, there are good and bad points in each of them (and I find all of them good).