SA1/2 physics

BeanBurrito

(ノಠ⺫ಠ)ノ ︵
ok but are we gonna talk about how flawless and smooth the physics and controls in sonic adventure 1/2 are?
they may even make you have a, ahem...
Hand-Gasm
or whatever it's called when a game has good controls lmao
 

Icarus

Warrior from Algol
ok but are we gonna talk about how flawless and smooth the physics and controls in sonic adventure 1/2 are?
they may even make you have a, ahem...
Hand-Gasm
or whatever it's called when a game has good controls lmao
Adventure has good controls to you?


The first game is pretty glitchy and got many "holes" where you could fall into (thus losing a live) and the character are shaking if you get between two different part of the level.


Sure, the spindash acts more like the classic games but let's not forget how unstable SA1 is and how SA2 still got some clunkiness (especially how Sonic is heavier and how stuff like lightdash could make you somersault into the bottomless pit).
 

BeanBurrito

(ノಠ⺫ಠ)ノ ︵
Adventure has good controls to you?


The first game is pretty glitchy and got many "holes" where you could fall into (thus losing a live) and the character are shaking if you get between two different part of the level.


Sure, the spindash acts more like the classic games but let's not forget how unstable SA1 is and how SA2 still got some clunkiness (especially how Sonic is heavier and how stuff like lightdash could make you somersault into the bottomless pit).
Alot of those holes only work in the dx version, and even then you have to be trying to die in them. I'm talking the originals.
 

Icarus

Warrior from Algol
Alot of those holes only work in the dx version, and even then you have to be trying to die in them. I'm talking the originals.
I can accept that DX made things worse but even the original game wasn't really stable (especially the shaking).
 

BeanBurrito

(ノಠ⺫ಠ)ノ ︵
I can accept that DX made things worse but even the original game wasn't really stable (especially the shaking).
idk i'm just basing my statement on my personal experiences, even with dx i haven't had many problems
 

CobaltBW

Community Noise Maker
Sonic Team Junior
Keep in mind that every loop in Sonic Adventure is heavily scripted. In a proper physics engine this wouldn't be necessary.
 

Icarus

Warrior from Algol
Keep in mind that every loop in Sonic Adventure is heavily scripted. In a proper physics engine this wouldn't be necessary.
Like most 3D Sonic games (aside from the Boost ones even if they still got scripts).


That's why 2006, having broken scripts, made you lose a life for no reasons if you dare touching the pad or if the game decides to broke the script for no reason.


Actually, Lost World was a more stable Adventure game aside from the auto-running sections and the Galaxy-like level design.
 

Nitro Turbo

A sonic fan guy !
I'm playing SADX this period
The physics is good but the collision is really horrible
When I use spin dash I enter in the wall than I fall but to game back to 1998 not bad
 

Icarus

Warrior from Algol
I'm playing SADX this period
The physics is good but the collision is really horrible
When I use spin dash I enter in the wall than I fall but to game back to 1998 not bad
Which version of SADX? The Gamecube one, the original PC release or the Steam release? Every subsequent port made the collision detection a bit worse than the original.


But let's agree that Adventure aged like milk under the sun during summer.
 

Nitro Turbo

A sonic fan guy !
Which version of SADX? The Gamecube one, the original PC release or the Steam release? Every subsequent port made the collision detection a bit worse than the original.


But let's agree that Adventure aged like milk under the sun during summer.

PC version
2003 europe version but i use 2004 US exe for modloader
and i think that i agree with you
the story is good , the levels and many things
but the cutscene and collision are not that good
 
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Icarus

Warrior from Algol
PC version
2003 europe version but i use 2004 US exe for modloader



and i think that i agree with you
the story is good , the levels and many things
but the cutscene and collision are not that good
I forgot which year which version came out but the 2004 one isn't that different from 2003.


I'd also tell you that story isn't important in a game, especially in Sonic (sure, Sonic 3&K and CD had some story to an extend but they're not the primary focus).


Sega made a big mistake by wanting to "modernize" Sonic with a RPG-esque game with a hub world and story cutscenes instead of just making a simple one that could've been basically a Megadrive game but in 3D (kinda like what SRB2 is).
 

CobaltBW

Community Noise Maker
Sonic Team Junior
Hub worlds aren't inherently bad, so long as they don't actively obstruct or obscure the action levels. Mario 64 had no issue implementing an effective hub world.

SA1's problem is as simple as a lack of polish. It's not a terrible game, but there's a lot of room for improvement in many aspects of the gameplay.
 
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Icarus

Warrior from Algol
Hub worlds aren't inherently bad, so long as they don't actively obstruct or obscure the action levels. Mario 64 had no issue implementing an effective hub world.

SA1's problem is as simple as a lack of polish. It's not a terrible game, but there's a lot of room for improvement in many aspects of the gameplay.
The thing is that Mario is not Sonic. Sonic, being about speed and being more arcade-leaning, should make you go from one level to another without having to wait (that's one thing SA2 and Heroes did better).


I also believe that Sonic should simply not talk (or at least not in the games, the cartoons are fine) and shouldn't try having a serious story.


At least I'm glad they've learned about the first by not putting a hub since Colors (at least Generations' had shortcuts and was small and 2D).
 

CobaltBW

Community Noise Maker
Sonic Team Junior
The thing is that Mario is not Sonic.

I could contest this to some extent. Both are action platformers with an emphasis on momentum. The core difference between the two is physics.

Whether a hub world is effective depends largely on the setting and the execution, "Sonic fast" is hardly relevant.
 

Icarus

Warrior from Algol
I could contest this to some extent. Both are action platformers with an emphasis on momentum. The core difference between the two is physics.

Whether a hub world is effective depends largely on the setting and the execution, "Sonic fast" is hardly relevant.
Sonic should be about instant action, not "go to point A in a city to get some key to go to point B" while having realistic humans in a realistic city (which does not make sense at all).


No wonder why Classic fans disliked Adventure (rightfully) because Sonic is a platformer with an emphasis on speed, not a RPG-esque action/adventure game a la Zelda.


Anyway the thread is over to me, SRB2 is how Sonic in 3D must be, not what Sonic Team has made in those last decades.


Thanks for the conversation.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
I could contest this to some extent. Both are action platformers with an emphasis on momentum. The core difference between the two is physics.

I would say that's a massive oversimplification of the difference between the two. Not only the physics, but also the level design and flow are very different, especially in the 3D games. Momentum is something gained and lost very quickly in 3D Mario games, with Mario changing his speed and even going full stop as needed on a regular basis to suit the platforming, often in less linear level design that encourages exploration.

Sonic on the other hand is about deciding what speed you want to move at and holding onto that speed long term, whether that be a casual jog through a level to search for goodies or charging through full speed, using that speed to skip whole platforming segments in linear levels. Depending on your speed, what pathways are available to you in a level can be very different, whether that be because of momentum or reaction time.

Nonetheless, I do actually prefer hub worlds in 3D Sonic games, provided they aren't painfully huge and slow like in 06. They are a chance for a nice change of pace between levels, generally being more chill than the hectic action the rest of the game has.

In regards to SA1/DX's physics, I do think it controls fantastically for the most part, with a higher skill ceiling than most other 3D Sonic games. However, the limitations of the physics forcing certain segments to be scripted is a very unfortunate downside, and collision leaves a lot to be desired in much of the level design itself. One would expect this to have been remedied in SA2, but unfortunately the impression I generally get from playing that game is that they actually made the problem worse. Sonic and Shadow's stages are even more linear than Sonic's stages in SA1, and the potential to make use of the physics to skip sections is, while still there, much more limited. Modding SA1 stages into SA2 (Such as Emerald Coast) further exposes how limited the physics feel in comparison.
 

Icarus

Warrior from Algol
I would say that's a massive oversimplification of the difference between the two. Not only the physics, but also the level design and flow are very different, especially in the 3D games. Momentum is something gained and lost very quickly in 3D Mario games, with Mario changing his speed and even going full stop as needed on a regular basis to suit the platforming, often in less linear level design that encourages exploration.

Sonic on the other hand is about deciding what speed you want to move at and holding onto that speed long term, whether that be a casual jog through a level to search for goodies or charging through full speed, using that speed to skip whole platforming segments in linear levels. Depending on your speed, what pathways are available to you in a level can be very different, whether that be because of momentum or reaction time.

Nonetheless, I do actually prefer hub worlds in 3D Sonic games, provided they aren't painfully huge and slow like in 06. They are a chance for a nice change of pace between levels, generally being more chill than the hectic action the rest of the game has.

In regards to SA1/DX's physics, I do think it controls fantastically for the most part, with a higher skill ceiling than most other 3D Sonic games. However, the limitations of the physics forcing certain segments to be scripted is a very unfortunate downside, and collision leaves a lot to be desired in much of the level design itself. One would expect this to have been remedied in SA2, but unfortunately the impression I generally get from playing that game is that they actually made the problem worse. Sonic and Shadow's stages are even more linear than Sonic's stages in SA1, and the potential to make use of the physics to skip sections is, while still there, much more limited. Modding SA1 stages into SA2 (Such as Emerald Coast) further exposes how limited the physics feel in comparison.
I agree with you concerning SA2, Sonic/Shadow's gameplay felt too heavy and they nerfed spin-dashing too much.
But I disagree about SA1, the game is glitchy and unstable (your character shakes for no reasons 99% of the time).
Sonic Lost World is a much better game when it comes to platforming and stability (albeit too slow with a badly implemented parkour system).
 

Nitro Turbo

A sonic fan guy !
I disagree about SA1, the game is glitchy and unstable (your character shakes for no reasons 99% of the time).

agree with that and it's really a disaster but back to 1998 the 3D games was i their earlier days and dreamcast limitation are reasons for that
 

CobaltBW

Community Noise Maker
Sonic Team Junior
Sonic should be about instant action, not "go to point A in a city to get some key to go to point B" while having realistic humans in a realistic city (which does not make sense at all).

No wonder why Classic fans disliked Adventure (rightfully) because Sonic is a platformer with an emphasis on speed, not a RPG-esque action/adventure game a la Zelda.


Anyway the thread is over to me, SRB2 is how Sonic in 3D must be, not what Sonic Team has made in those last decades.


Thanks for the conversation.

I'm not making the argument Sonic Adventure's hub world is good, only the fact that it being a hub world at all isn't the real issue. Whatever "instant action" means, Mario 64 is still an action platformer just as Sonic Adventure is one. Mario unlocking doors with stars on them and jumping into paintings doesn't slow down the gameplay in the way that Sonic Adventure's hub world does, so the problem is clearly in the execution. Take the RPG elements and realism out of the equation if that's what the problem is.

I don't even care whether Sonic games have hub worlds or not, but "Sonic is about speed and hub worlds are slow" is lazy and reductive. It's easy to imagine a kind of hub world that's functional for Sonic with a little bit of nuance.
 

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