What if we gave Sonic no ability?

[Charonik08]

Hello! What are you talking about?

To get the full picture of what this thread has become, I suggest you read all 9 pages, even though it’s a bit tiring (which I completely relate to)


In a form of a TL;DR, we have agreed that giving Sonic no ability would not only hurt him as a character and his uniqueness, but also that he wouldn’t be played as much because other characters would seem more interesting. It’s now down to what Sonic’s ability should be and or if the physics need reworking. (which is now confirmed to be in the making)

Basically Thok Thread 2.0

 

[azoo]

Double jump and dropdash doesn't sound too bad, but you wouldn't be able to use the dropdash if you had a shield or if you had 7 chaos emeralds and 50+ rings.

That's true, but the same could be said for when you get a shield in Mania; so I'd say it's an even tradeoff.

 

[time gear]

An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:

• Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
• Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
• If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
• If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
• The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.

 

[rocklight124]

An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:

• Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
• Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
• If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
• If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
• The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.

*Clapping* Great idea man. I love it.

 

[Charonik08]

An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:

• Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
• Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
• If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
• If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
• The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.

Although I like the idea, this would be a bit confusing to a beginner. If they skip the tutorial, they will practically have no idea how to use it and it’s gimmicks. If they don’t skip the tutorial where they would learn about the ability in detail, they might just not use it until they get better at the game it fear that they lose progress out of it or misuse it to take damage, etc... Other than that though, really nice idea.

 

[Charonik08]

Junio and Alternative Sonic already does this and it is not beginner friendly. Junio Sonic was one of the first mods I downloaded and I had no idea how to use it as a beginner. It's also not controller friendly at all.

Actually, now that I think about it, isn’t this just Alternative Sonic’s moveset? Except without the speed boost that it grants you overtime? I mean, the moveset is fun and all, but like you said, it’s definitely not beginner friendly.

 

[time gear]

Junio and Alternative Sonic already does this and it is not beginner friendly. Junio Sonic was one of the first mods I downloaded and I had no idea how to use it as a beginner. It's also not controller friendly at all.

I've not tried Alternative Sonic, but I did give Junio Sonic a quick go to compare. I noticed a very important difference which is causing it to be more complicated and less controller friendly: It features a vertical aiming system in addition to the horizontal one. This means you are not only aiming Sonic with left and right, but also with up and down, which is probably why analog controllers aren't ideal. In my proposition, you can still look around freely (if you have vertical camera movement enabled) but Sonic will only thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. Additionally, 5 seconds is longer than you might realize. There should be no pressure for beginners to aim it properly.

The concept I am proposing should be quite intuitive, like firing a cannon but even more simple: You point in the direction you want to shoot, and then you shoot. Even if one skips the tutorial, it shouldn't take long for this concept to sink in. The fact you are given up to three times to attempt this per jump should only make learning even easier, as that's around 15 seconds per jump to figure out what you are doing. Overall, it should be much more beginner friendly than Junio Sonic.

 

[physicsCamera]

[*snip*]

 

[VGBoy]

The fact you are given up to three times to attempt this per jump should only make learning even easier, as that's around 15 seconds per jump to figure out what you are doing. Overall, it should be much more beginner friendly than Junio Sonic.

This "Stop Thok" idea sounds more like a training tool than a viable ability for normal game play. You're even explaining it as a training tool. If it was added to base game as is, its delayed activation time would be a huge pace breaker compared to the instant activation of the other playable cast's abilities. It also seems more broken in battle modes, where you can stall in the air possibly longer than Tails with about 15 seconds of air time.

The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

The idea of a cooldown for Sonic's ability is a step in the right direction if his ability still lets him exceed the speed cap with little effort.

 

[time gear]

This "Stop Thok" idea sounds more like a training tool than a viable ability for normal game play. You're even explaining it as a training tool. If it was added to base game as is, its delayed activation time would be a huge pace breaker compared to the instant activation of the other playable cast's abilities. It also seems more broken in battle modes, where you can stall in the air possibly longer than Tails with about 15 seconds of air time.

The idea of a cooldown for Sonic's ability is a step in the right direction if his ability still lets him exceed the speed cap with little effort.

It... Could be used as a training tool, but the actual intention is ease of use, or utility. Yes, it would break pace quite a bit, but that's part of the problem with the situation we are in to begin with. There's two ways to approach the problem: Either modify how thok works to be easier to use for newcomers and less actively hazardous, or replace thok entirely with something else. I've taken a stab at both ideas, and the stop thok is an attempt at the former. The problems I am addressing with it are that newer players have a tendency of using it when they don't want to, have a hard time using it as a recovery tool, and often fly off cliffs to their deaths.

The idea is primarily based around use in the main campaign, so yeah it probably would be pretty broken in battle modes, but I consider that to be a secondary issue to the main game. If we also have to factor in PvP battle modes into the balance of our suggestions, we are going to be making even less ground in figuring out what to do with Sonic's moveset. It's probably better to find something that works for the main campaign first, and then figure out how to balance it in PvP later.

 

[NeonSRB2]

My idea? walljumping, ik this is a suuuuper dead thread, and you'd need to intruduce a few limits to prevent sonic from just breaking the game like jana would, but hey, as tails or knuckles you could save yourself from a pit, and as sonic, you can chain multiple thoks together, which would be much harder as another character like amy, speaking of amy, theres toooons of requests like; omg amy is so lame because her ability is litterally just the same as doing nothing as a spin characterfdkhgsflglsljgsdfgsfljk so i guess that could shut em up a bit, i know that its a bad criticism but I dont think it would ruin her as a character to just give her an extra jump on walls, but if you dont like it you can try to make it a spin only ability.

 

[Morphized]

I feel like Sonic could be a "stat-boost" character instead of a character with an extra ability. He could just have a faster base speed and a higher momentum effect when rolling.

 

[ZackNAttack]

My idea? walljumping, ik this is a suuuuper dead thread, and you'd need to intruduce a few limits to prevent sonic from just breaking the game like jana would, but hey, as tails or knuckles you could save yourself from a pit, and as sonic, you can chain multiple thoks together, which would be much harder as another character like amy, speaking of amy, theres toooons of requests like; omg amy is so lame because her ability is litterally just the same as doing nothing as a spin characterfdkhgsflglsljgsdfgsfljk so i guess that could shut em up a bit, i know that its a bad criticism but I dont think it would ruin her as a character to just give her an extra jump on walls, but if you dont like it you can try to make it a spin only ability.

I suppose this isn't unprecedented, considering that in Chaotix, Mighty (who replaced Sonic since they couldn't get Tails done) can walljump. Plus I suppose there could be a restriction that he can only walljump on Knux-climbable walls.

 

[NeonSRB2]

I feel like Sonic could be a "stat-boost" character instead of a character with an extra ability. He could just have a faster base speed and a higher momentum effect when rolling.

that would be boring, and not really respect the game very much

 

[ERROR2401]

I was thinking, what if sonic got both a passive and jump ability, like increased control (up to a limit) the more rings Sonic gets? Well, it wouldn't be active when super. But my idea for a jump ability? It's... a mix. I don't have a name for it, but I can describe it. Like, it would first jump up, and then drop quickly, all while acting like a drop dash when hitting the ground, or even a peelout version of the dropdash, if that would even make sense... and it would also be able to defeat badniks, but only below Sonic. Maybe using it at higher speeds would give increased drop control, or even a higher jump at the start.

(Side note: hopefully I'm not necroposting.)

 

[lnferno]

I was thinking, what if sonic got both a passive and jump ability, like increased control (up to a limit) the more rings Sonic gets? Well, it wouldn't be active when super. But my idea for a jump ability? It's... a mix. I don't have a name for it, but I can describe it. Like, it would first jump up, and then drop quickly, all while acting like a drop dash when hitting the ground, or even a peelout version of the dropdash, if that would even make sense... and it would also be able to defeat badniks, but only below Sonic. Maybe using it at higher speeds would give increased drop control, or even a higher jump at the start.

(Side note: hopefully I'm not necroposting.)

For the Jump ability... ever heard of the Air Drill? Because that sorta sounds like it.

 

[Morphized]

Of course, there's always just making the thok chargeable/aimable.

 

[super sonic running]

if we gave sonic no ability, it would make the game impossible to beat. sonic will not roll in to a ball when he jumps, sonic dosent have the spindash or the roll, sonic is slow, sonic would also have a low jump and etc.

 

[lnferno]

if we gave sonic no ability, it would make the game impossible to beat. sonic will not roll in to a ball when he jumps, sonic dosent have the spindash or the roll, sonic is slow, sonic would also have a low jump and etc.

This means no jump ability, not being nerfed into oblivion. This is a strawman argument.

Sonic would just suffer the same issues Amy does currently but in a slightly different way.

 

[time gear]

if we gave sonic no ability, it would make the game impossible to beat. sonic will not roll in to a ball when he jumps, sonic dosent have the spindash or the roll, sonic is slow, sonic would also have a low jump and etc.

By not giving him an ability, it means midair double jump ability. Not literally stripping him of everything. I explained the issue with this in my original reply to this topic.