What if we gave Sonic no ability?

[rocklight124]

The S3&K manual says a lot of things with no basis in reality. Please do some research on what's actually happening in the game: http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/Genesis/SonicTheHedgehog.html#CharacterStats , so we can drop this irrelevant tangent. SRB2 isn't S3&K, we need to be developing gameplay that's best for SRB2, not necessarily emulating S3&K exactly as it was.

I know which is why we should have a Poll.

 

[azoo]

fickleheart thought of a thok replacement that I think is pretty neat:

She says that the aiming assist would be useful for newbies.

Soooo a sorta-homing-attack.

I mean, I wouldn't be against this at all. lol

 

[rocklight124]

That sounds cool, but it's not classic Sonic.

 

[Tatsuru]

I know which is why we should have a Poll.

We're not having a poll to decide which ability would be the best for Sonic precisely because of this kind of misinformation about how Sonic should play like.

 

[LunickTMM]

I know which is why we should have a Poll.

A poll would do nothing.

While it's great to hear out everyone's thoughts, the masses of the SRB2 Forums do not understand the same intricacies of game designing that the devs do. The fact that the most popular ideas around are homing attack, which goes against SRB2 level design and doesn't help Sonic, and the drop dash, which is an objectively inferior thok, only show to prove that.

This isn't too say people can't have decent ideas, but having a poll wouldn't serve any assistance since most people voting wouldn't even understand how the level design and the abilities they're designing world clash. I think the Sonic Ability Creation thread was a big example on just how hard it truly is to make an ability that complements level design, assists Sonic, and if simple to use for all controller types.

 

[rocklight124]

You guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Make a Poll after the Devs have came up with a number of abilities for him if they have trouble deciding themselves.

 

[azoo]

That sounds cool, but it's not classic Sonic.

Limiting what's better for gameplay as a whole behind silly labels of what it means to be classic or modern or whatever is a bit lame. The homing attack as a concept wasn't invented just to be different from classic Sonic, it was a genuine attempt to make 3D aiming and movement easier for aligning jumps on enemies and objects.

Besides, it's no more "not classic Sonic" than the thok itself; in fact way lesser so. lol

 

[rocklight124]

Limiting what's better for gameplay as a whole behind silly labels of what it means to be classic or modern or whatever is a bit lame. The homing attack as a concept wasn't invented just to be different from classic Sonic, it was a genuine attempt to make 3D aiming and movement easier for aligning jumps on enemies and objects.

Besides, it's no more "not classic Sonic" than the thok itself; in fact way lesser so. lol

I Know. but it does sound cool, but if we aren't trying to keep things classic then we should start thinking outside the box. Like a Thok that doesn't allow you to keep any speed after hitting the ground or a Drop Dash that increases in Speed with your vertical momentum. The Peel out could work, but all that jumping would be a huge pain. But the Drop dash has just as many problems as the Thok, and a Bounce is just weird and way to close to Fangs gameplay.


So the verdict here is I think Sonic should have an ability that allows him to use his momentum for speed in some way, but as smoothly as possible.

 

[SilverVortex]

Limiting what's better for gameplay as a whole behind silly labels of what it means to be classic or modern or whatever is a bit lame. The homing attack as a concept wasn't invented just to be different from classic Sonic, it was a genuine attempt to make 3D aiming and movement easier for aligning jumps on enemies and objects.

Besides, it's no more "not classic Sonic" than the thok itself; in fact way lesser so. lol

exactly, srb2 isn't trying to be an evolution of any kind of sonic game, it's an evolution of sonic as a game franchise. the words "classic" and "modern" have no place nor do they make any difference in the grand scheme of things

 

[time gear]

Perhaps the Modern Sonic style slow fall where he uncurls and fans his body out would work well with the newer physics? He could hold onto any speed he has while using it, and it would be able to be used similarly to the thok in the sense that it would allow him to cover more distance with his jumps, though without so much of the loss of control when it's used.

Just so he's not entirely vulnerable, perhaps he could also curl back into a ball by pressing jump again. This would allow him to attack enemies during the jump after uncurling, though he would start falling normally again.

It would be somewhat similar to Knuckles' glide in terms of how it would assist with platforming, though would not allow him to climb walls and he would have to sacrifice it to attack enemies. As a tradeoff, he would have more control over it than Knuckles has, as he wouldn't be forced to keep moving forward with it and indeed could slow down to the point of not having any horizontal momentum if the player chose to.

 

[rocklight124]

Sonic would bounce like a rubber ball not a pogo stick. It can also only be triggered in midair like a ground pound and from there you bounce. You can also bounce against walls.

That's enough to distinguish him from Fang. Saying Sonic's bounce is the same as Fang's is like saying Tail's flight is the same as Knuckle's.

Regardless, taking advantage of momentum isn't the issue here. The level design itself needs to be changed so that players can take advantage of momentum. If that's the case, every character would be capable of taking advantage of momentum.

I'm saying his ability needs to allow him to use his momentum and it needs to be smooth. A bounce isn't the way to go.

 

[rocklight124]

I don't know what you're talking about. Do you have any examples like a video or something?

It's like the moments that Sonic is in the air in Sonic Unleashed. or check out the Sonic infinity Engine.

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

I don't know what you're talking about. Do you have any examples like a video or something?

---------- Post added 08-04-2020 at 12:02 AM ---------- Previous post was 08-03-2020 at 11:59 PM ----------



A bounce is smooth. There's already a custom character that's been given the bounce and it's very easy and natural to control. It also uses momentum. Since you basically have to ground pound, achieving height and velocity gives you a stronger bounce. If you let Sonic bounce off of walls, you can take advantage of forward momentum as well.

In short, it completely takes advantage of momentum. If you oppose the bounce simply out of aesthetic reasons (you just think it won't fit) that's fine but I don't see any mechanical reason to disregard it.

I just think it's to similar to Fang.

 

[SilverVortex]

I just think it's to similar to Fang.

only if it's explicitly made similar to fang, a modern-esque bounce could still use momentum like fang's bounce but could also be spammed in one spot to get lots of extra height at the cost of your momentum, but you could use it normally to bounce off slopes and launch at high speeds in normal gameplay.

 

[time gear]

I don't know what you're talking about. Do you have any examples like a video or something?

I'm not really sure how to embed videos, but click here to see what I'm talking about. The person here fast falls down, but typically Sonic spreads himself out and the player has control over his motion while he falls.

 

[rocklight124]

A Bounce could work if hitting a wall would allow Sonic to gain height almost like a wall jump.

 

[rocklight124]

So it would be like that but vertical? How would you make this useful for smaller jumps or jumps with more horizontal distance?

---------- Post added at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------



Yes that's what I've been suggesting this entire time.

Look up the Sonic infinity Engine the Gliding. Oh man that would be cool, but I'm not sure how it would work.

---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------

So it would be like that but vertical? How would you make this useful for smaller jumps or jumps with more horizontal distance?

---------- Post added at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------



Yes that's what I've been suggesting this entire time.

Dude you should have told me that sounds dope.

 

[cookiefonster]

Acceleration and air control are probably the most important changes, because they make it easier for Sonic to reposition himself mid-jump from a standstill. Areas like ACZ1's ziplines at the moment can be pretty terrifying to Sonic due to the rigidity of air control, but with air maneuverability this becomes an absolute breeze. Gravity and jump height would also be pretty significant changes, making our physics feel less "floaty" and Sonic's verticality more comparable to the classic Sonic games.

ACZ1's ziplines? Being changed so that they're not an absolute pain??? Sign me the FUCK up. Seriously, I really am not a fan of the zipline gimmick as it stands, due to the difficulty in correctly positioning yourself after jumping from one, and the severe punishment for miscalculations. Maybe this air physics change could make the final rope hang section of ACZ1 feel like an actual fun challenge instead of a precision nightmare you need to play like 50 times over to be able to beat.

 

[Mr Beagle]

There does seem to be a lot of talk about giving Sonic some strong vertical ability and a more powerful moveset in general, but the potential issue with that is that large portions of the existing levels will need to be redone (as they will become incredibly easy to cheese).

One of the big issues with some iterations of the Infinity engine is that you spend more time flying than being on the ground, as a result the very idea of platforming seems like an afterthought. We also need to take note that SRB2's engine does not allow levels beyond a certain size, so until that is tackled we might want to keep the original idea of the Genesis games in 3D (as otherwise the average level might take under 30 seconds to complete).

 

[time gear]

So it would be like that but vertical? How would you make this useful for smaller jumps or jumps with more horizontal distance?

You misunderstand, my idea isn't to make it more vertical, but rather to make it more horizontal. In the modern games you are usually constricted to an area that is basically like an invisible tube while you are falling. The way I would translate this to SRB2 is to have it control more or less like it does there, but without being constricted into an invisible tube.

It could potentially even work together with the tornadoes in ACZ to launch Sonic way up.

 

[ManuelRome]

There does seem to be a lot of talk about giving Sonic some strong vertical ability and a more powerful moveset in general, but the potential issue with that is that large portions of the existing levels will need to be redone (as they will become incredibly easy to cheese).

To be honest, any character apart from Sonic have ways to cheese some parts of the levels, if anything, the only ones that don't are Fang and Amy for the less experienced players.

I think that a Sonic with no ability could work assuming he's given more maneuverability when jumping. Instead it feels more like you're locked to the direction you're jumping to, only being able to change the speed, and not even that much, and also, if you're going too fast, Sonic tends to slip from platforms, even with the autobrake on.

That being said, having Sonic have no ability would also make him less unique compared to the other characters, so I do think he should be given something that helps horizontal movement.