What if we gave Sonic no ability?

Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
The way the Derp's bounce works at least is that you have to trigger the bounce. My idea is for you to be able to bounce or ricochet off walls while you're in "bounce mode".

Hmm I see. I can envision the gameplay for this and it’s sounds great for Sonic’s vertical movement while also maintaining the fast paced gameplay that Sonic as the fastest character on the cast is supposed to have. How does the Ricochet Dash sound? :’) Bad names aside, I do like the concept you bring to the table.

How would they know that they're doing something stupid? How are they supposed to know, without any sort of sign from the game, the correct way of using the thok? Why should SRB2 be the sort of game that requires a full on tutorial on how to properly use an ability for the basic mascot character of the game?

This is also considering that the classic games also didn’t have tutorials and let the player experiment with Sonic’s high speeds. In there, the level design was fit for fast pace gameplay, while also allowing you to explore the zones and experiment with the speed. Like you’ve said, the Thok isn’t fit for this more fluid motion that all abilities should have. Therefore the mentality of thinking before doing an action with the Thok (a.k.a not going fast) feels forced rather than something you can come up with on the fly (like Sonic is portrayed to do). So I can definitely agree with you on this one.
 

Boost

Member
OP345 said:
How would they know that they're doing something stupid? How are they supposed to know, without any sort of sign from the game, the correct way of using the thok?
I mean, you'd probably be able to tell you're doing it wrong if you keep thokking into the same death pit over and over...
Charonik08 said:
This is also considering that the classic games also didn’t have tutorials and let the player experiment with Sonic’s high speeds
Yes and no. Classic games (pre-mania at least) have rather strict speed caps.
OP345 said:
This is why pairing it with something like the rebound dash is a good idea
Rebound Dash by itself can already achieve the goal you'd need bounce for: gaining height from bouncing.
OP345 said:
My idea is for you to be able to bounce or ricochet off walls while you're in "bounce mode"
Well, SRB2's levels are quite open but if you're thinking of something like the Ball ability from Kirby's Adventure/Nightmare in Dream Land (Turn into a ball that bounces from everything), it might have some difficulties with walls.
 
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Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
I mean, you'd probably be able to tell you're doing it wrong if you keep thokking into the same death pit over and over...

But then it becomes the problem of now, the player doesn’t want to use the ability in fear of dying more trying to use the Thok. Like Unknownlight said, there’s play-throughs on YouTube that show players that use Sonic, realize that the Thok does more damage to them than not using it at all.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
There is a tiny problem that Bounce move shares with Drop Dash: it requires a floor to operate. And this is not always available in the same "Tricky jumping over a pit" situation that was discussed so many times.

The drop dash requires stretches of floor to operate, it works by launching you forward when you land. Bouncing only requires enough ground to stand on to launch you back up. Unless the ground is slanted in a way to specifically prevent you from bouncing in a direction that is helpful, it should be just as useful and more as just jumping regularly.

There's not always a wall in reach for Knuckles to grab onto over a bottomless pit or lava or etc. either, yet nobody uses that as a reason why he shouldn't have the glide. It could be used to help reach a bit of ground that might be out of reach with the jump, but the same could be said of the bounce.
 

Boost

Member
time gear said:
The drop dash requires stretches of floor to operate, it works by launching you forward when you land. Bouncing only requires enough ground to stand on to launch you back up
Unless you have Fang's Aerial Garden Bunnyhopping in mind, there's not much difference. It's not difficult to jump almost as soon as Drop Dash sends you forward. And then again, jumping like this on narrow platforms would be just as hard (if not harder) than thokking (you're probably better off jumping normally).
time gear said:
There's not always a wall in reach for Knuckles to grab onto over a bottomless pit or lava or etc. either, yet nobody uses that as a reason why he shouldn't have the glide.
That is not the same thing. Gliding already gives you a benefit (of slower falling) while Drop Dash and Bounce don't (the former gives nothing and the latter makes you fall faster)
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
Unless you have Fang's Aerial Garden Bunnyhopping in mind, there's not much difference. It's not difficult to jump almost as soon as Drop Dash sends you forward. And then again, jumping like this on narrow platforms would be just as hard (if not harder) than thokking (you're probably better off jumping normally).
The platforms don't need to be narrow. In fact, platforms as narrow as you are describing are quite rare within SRB2. The vast majority of the time, there should be ample space for leeway while aiming. On top of this, the added height from the bouncing would provide additional leeway by giving players more time to set up for the next platform and easier ability to cover distance. Doing this would actually be easier than using thok because the goal would be to be above where you plan to land (Which now is marked by a drop shadow) whereas you are trying to aim more horizontal with the thok.

That is not the same thing. Gliding already gives you a benefit (of slower falling) while Drop Dash and Bounce don't (the former gives nothing and the latter makes you fall faster)
You fall faster, yes, but that's only after activation. Bouncing isn't just about the execution, but rather the setup, which takes place during gaining height and reaching the apex of your jump. This would become even easier to do after performing a bounce once as you would gain more height and so have more time to prepare for the next bounce. The player wouldn't be expected to even press the button to do the bounce until they were already above the spot they wanted to land, unless they were trying to do more tricky speedrun type tricks.
 

Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
Speaking of which, how often have you used drop shadow to correct your landing? Asking purely out of interest.

Actually, in my experiences, before 2.2.1, (when drop shadows became a thing without the usage of OpenGL) Although I captivated a lot of the 3d structures of the zones pretty well, I still had a bit of trouble trying to reach higher areas without the usage of OpenGL and or turning off the Third-Person Vertical Lock because I couldn’t really calculate in my head the distance and the momentum necessary to reach such height, or if there even is a platform where I’m aiming to go to. Once the drop shadows became a thing, It was much easier to reach higher areas because now I knew the height, where they were, and what distance I needed to start using my Thok (Sonic), Bounce (Fang), or evening Hover (Metal) to get momentum. Besides that though, I didn’t have many experiences with drop shadows as I downloaded SRB2 a couple days before 2.2.1 was released, plus I majorly play on OpenGL, but it was definitely a improvement to the whole perspective issue.

(Edit; and yes, I knew it is mostly for general platforms and ledges, but I always just had a problem with the higher platforms.)
 
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time gear

Eternity in an hour
Speaking of which, how often have you used drop shadow to correct your landing? Asking purely out of interest.

I never really felt like I needed it before, but I do definitely feel like it's a big help now that's it's here. Especially since I have started almost exclusively playing on controller, it feels much better.
 

CobaltBW

Community Noise Maker
Sonic Team Junior
I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall.
I mean, it's possible we won't shove it behind an unlock.... It's totally possible it won't be on any character. :P

It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
It's painfully obvious how it's problematic if you watch any new player runthrough currently on Youtube, especially if the player is using a controller. I'd also be cautious about conflating "simple" with "easy". Knuckles being more complicated than Sonic doesn't make him any harder a character to use.
 

Katmint

‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮
Thok being exclusive to mods rather than on an unlockable character would actually be more convenient for those who prefer it if the dumb "lol no saving when you have addons loaded" thing gets removed. I hope the team considers getting rid of that archaic gatekeeping.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
It's painfully obvious how it's problematic if you watch any new player runthrough currently on Youtube, especially if the player is using a controller. I'd also be cautious about conflating "simple" with "easy". Knuckles being more complicated than Sonic doesn't make him any harder a character to use.

I feel as though we have had this conversation before, but I would say Knuckles is harder than Sonic simply on account of having a lower jump height and as such, lower reach. The glide and climb sometimes helps, but enemies that have a height advantage to begin with are more difficult to deal with as him in general, especially flying enemies.

Don't forget that mobility through the stages is only one aspect of what makes a character easy or hard. Dealing with enemies is an important aspect too. Knuckles is easily the slowest character in regards to how he navigates, not considering shortcuts. This combined with his lower reach from jumping can lead to a bit of extra challenge.

This was a deliberate mechanic in S3K, Knuckles was the intended "Hard Mode" playthrough, with his paths often being a fair bit more challenging than the main path and his lower reach causing bosses to be harder and sometimes even requiring new patterns so he could complete them.

He's less difficult in SRB2 than he is in S3K, but I would still consider him a bigger challenge than Sonic.
 

cookiefonster

Wiki Admin
oh god this is basically the thok thread 2.0 lmfao

In all seriousness, as I said earlier, I think this topic is worth discussing again now that SRB2 is under new management (well, not totally new management, just that the big names that used to be in charge are gone now).

I've significantly changed my views on the thok since that old thread; I can now much more clearly see the problem people have with this ability, or at least parts of the problem. Personally, I think the best solution to the Sonic ability issue is to keep the thok's general idea (and probably also its name), but enormously rework it so that it doesn't give you a flat predefined burst of speed, but rather a variable burst of speed depending on your momentum. Maybe it would help accessibility to make it easier to release or brake the thok? I don't think it should release as soon as you let go of jump or move backwards, because that would make him kind of feel too similar to Knuckles.

Speaking of similarity to Knuckles, I'm honestly not very fond of the idea of letting Sonic bounce off walls or slightly climb them. It just feels extremely weird and gimmicky, and not something the classic games would have done. Wall interactions really feel like Knuckles' defining feature to me.
 

Soufon

Member
Maybe Sonic could have something like the modern Sonic games' airdash - a flat dash straight forward that while not useful for gaining speed, is useful for positioning/correcting missed jumps.

A proper implementation of this would probably need something to tie it into momentum to keep it interesting for experienced players, though.
 

SilverVortex

fuck not again *lights hand on fire*
Maybe Sonic could have something like the modern Sonic games' airdash - a flat dash straight forward that while not useful for gaining speed, is useful for positioning/correcting missed jumps.

A proper implementation of this would probably need something to tie it into momentum to keep it interesting for experienced players, though.

honestly that's probably the most ideal move for srb2, since the game relies so heavily on your momentum to get you to higher and better places
 

Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
Yeah, as much as I would love to have something similar to Rebound Dash in SRB2, it’s most reasonable to make the Thok more momentum based to basically curtail it to be more of a “saving your poorly timed jump” ability rather than getting unreasonable amounts of speed with it. Sonic still does need that vertical movement though... :thonk:
 

Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
I don't really think the base game really relies on your momentum to traverse the levels. When playing Sonic at least, most of the speed you get comes from your thok.

In some areas of the game it kinda does, especially when it comes to slope momentum as such. Especially with the Thok, as you can get some crazy momentum spikes and distance using the Thok up a slope in most cases.

In other news, did the literal Purple Guy just randomly appear out of no-where to post in a thread about a hedgehog’s ability to fart hard enough to get incredible amounts of velocity mid-air?!
 

SilverVortex

fuck not again *lights hand on fire*
In other news, did the literal Purple Guy just randomly appear out of no-where to post in a thread about a hedgehog’s ability to fart hard enough to get incredible amounts of velocity mid-air?!

unfortunately he's also in skip's thread too so uh sonic's air fart isn't special smh
 

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