What if we gave Sonic no ability?

Mario A. Roach

¡Reremy
That's precisely why the thok should go. If you get rid of the thok and just give Sonic a better spindash then you don't need to deal with an OP thok.

Sonic's thok is hard to control, it requires lots of skill, is anything that requires skill and knowledge actually OP? Because I see this as the most incorrect term to apply here.
I just feel like you don't know how the thok works and how it it's used and you don't wanna see it anymore. funnily enough, you are not obligated to use it, it's just an air ability.
 

Soufon

Member
Wasn't the main point of removing/moving Sonic's thok over making him/the game more friendly to newcomers?
In terms of giving Sonic no ability at all, I don't think it's that good of an idea. For experienced players, it just gets rid of a real reason to play as him, locking Sonic as a sort of beginner's only character, while most of the other cast has higher skill ceilings (spinfly as Tails, etc)
Maybe a way to reduce thok's "panic button" factor would be to move it to spin key, though that opens another can of worms over shield inputs.
 

CobaltBW

Community Noise Maker
Sonic Team Junior
Sonic's thok is hard to control, it requires lots of skill, is anything that requires skill and knowledge actually OP? Because I see this as the most incorrect term to apply here.
I just feel like you don't know how the thok works and how it it's used and you don't wanna see it anymore. funnily enough, you are not obligated to use it, it's just an air ability.

If it were strictly "OP/UP" then it would be easy to readjust the power of the move to accomodate the game's design. The problem runs deeper than that, in it makes Sonic overtly strong in some areas without strengthening him in areas where he needs it the most.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
The design mentality going into replacing thok in Sonic's moveset appears to be this: "It must not betray/contradict the fundamentals of gameplay and must be something welcoming to newcomers". The easiest way to accomplish this goal would be to simply replace thok with double jump, but most people seem to agree that this would be fairly boring and would fail to set Sonic apart from other platforming mascots.

I don't think giving Sonic the bounce is a good idea since Fang already has a similar move.

While I can agree that Fang's bounce is similar, I feel that it serves a bit of a different purpose. Still, your point is valid. If Sonic were to be given a bounce, it would need to function a bit more differently from Fang than merely what I described.

I'm not sure how to make it work with multiplayer, but in a strictly single player setting, perhaps Sonic could press double jump to spend a certain number of rings in midair in exchange for a short lived time slow? Sonic himself continues moving at full speed, but enemies, projectiles, and stage hazards are slowed down. This would function as a way to make certain challenges easier for newcomers, but with the downside of having to spend rings to do it. In terms of lore, it could be explained that time isn't actually slowing down, Sonic is just moving faster. Basically, similar in concept to certain movie scenes featuring characters moving at high speeds, including one that came out recently.
 

Mario A. Roach

¡Reremy
If it were strictly "OP/UP" then it would be easy to readjust the power of the move to accomodate the game's design. The problem runs deeper than that, in it makes Sonic overtly strong in some areas without strengthening him in areas where he needs it the most.

But re-balancing the bouncy jump ability would make it underpowered, uneasy to control and slow, this is the problem with overly-complicated abilities, for characters such as Sonic, he just needs to be fast and that's what the thok delivers, instantaneous speed that isn't found in other abilities.
Maybe something like F-Sonic's Dash and insta-shield and Classic momentum might do the job?

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 PM ----------

Why not just give him the drop dash from Sonic Mania?

I've tried it, but it won't work unless people who don't use simple mode are considered and it might bring some controversy because legacy players like me, do not like simple mode.

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

It needs to be an ability that gives Sonic air control so that it works with the vertical level design of SRB2 (or at least the intended level design).

Air control is just a stat, I think tinkering with it a little bit might do the job, the problem comes when the level design is adjusted to work with the thok.
 

cookiefonster

Wiki Admin
I personally think that double jump works a lot better as a shield ability (which it is currently) than a default Sonic ability. Right now, Sonic can indeed double jump if you know where to find a whirlwind shield and are good at keeping it. Double jumping allows Sonic to much more swiftly get through sections designed around his ability to gain height, so it makes sense for that ability to be a power-up that you'll lose if you get hit. Shield abilities add so much interesting depth to Sonic games, not unlike, say, the feather and fire flowers from Super Mario World.

(Oh god, this is turning into another thok thread, isn't it. Maybe it's worth retreading this topic though, now that the people previously in charge of SRB2 have been booted.)
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
(Oh god, this is turning into another thok thread, isn't it. Maybe it's worth retreading this topic though, now that the people previously in charge of SRB2 have been booted.)

I would actually say that it's relevant regardless of the change in management. In the interest of SRB2 being the best game it can be, it is within the interest both the community and dev team alike to get the thok situation figured out.

The problem is that the best designed game isn't necessarily the most fun. Figuring out what to do with Sonic's moveset in a way that is not only practical, but enjoyable as well as welcoming to newcomers is the particular challenge of the issue. Figuring it out will require a fair amount of creativity.
 

SilverVortex

fuck not again *lights hand on fire*
I would actually say that it's relevant regardless of the change in management. In the interest of SRB2 being the best game it can be, it is within the interest both the community and dev team alike to get the thok situation figured out.

The problem is that the best designed game isn't necessarily the most fun. Figuring out what to do with Sonic's moveset in a way that is not only practical, but enjoyable as well as welcoming to newcomers is the particular challenge of the issue. Figuring it out will require a fair amount of creativity.

not to bash any new ideas but i think the thok already fits both of the required bills
think about it, it's an instant burst of momentum to help pick up speed faster than a spindash, it's a way of instantly changing direction if needs be, it's a speedrunning tool for cutting corners and maintaining speed, and it's a semi-helpful jump correction tool.
if we did give sonic something different that did admittedly fit the bare minimum requirements i don't think it could come close to the raw usefulness that is the thok (i'd be happy to be proven wrong tho)
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
not to bash any new ideas but i think the thok already fits both of the required bills
think about it, it's an instant burst of momentum to help pick up speed faster than a spindash, it's a way of instantly changing direction if needs be, it's a speedrunning tool for cutting corners and maintaining speed, and it's a semi-helpful jump correction tool.
if we did give sonic something different that did admittedly fit the bare minimum requirements i don't think it could come close to the raw usefulness that is the thok (i'd be happy to be proven wrong tho)

I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.

However, the data apparently exists, and they seem dead set on replacing the thok to be more welcoming to newcomers. The general consensus has been that it should stay in the game anyway, they are probably just going to shove it on another character. Either Metal or a new playable entirely (My vote is still Espio btw, but if they opt not to add an entire new character just for thok I would at least prefer they don't just turn Metal into "old sonic" and allow him to stay unique. I submitted an idea as to how this could work in the suggestions topic recently, feel free to go give it some feedback.).

With that being the case, I feel that it's best to remain open minded regarding Sonic's potential to have an ability other than thok. It's entirely possible that whatever they decide to replace it with could be even more fun to use, but to help ensure that be the case they are going to need all the ideas to work with they can get.
 
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NARbluebear

Self-taught Lua Amateur
I had problems with the thok mostly because I was using a controller. It's alot easier with keyboard and mouse but it's still hard to get used to. I can understand why most people are very turned off by the thok especially people who are interested in playing the game with a controller. If SRB2 wants to be more controller and newcomer friendly, the thok has to be changed or replaced.
The entire reason why SRB2 is geared towards people who play with a keyboard and mouse is actually because it's based off of Doom Legacy, which is a source port of DOOM (The 1995 version, not the 2016 one). In DOOM, the only way to control Doomguy was with the keyboard and mouse. See where this is going?
Basically, SRB2 wasn't originally made with controller support in mind, and even though they added it a bit down the line, it's still not perfect. Personally, if you're having problems with controls, you may need to get used to them before practicing the thok.
 

SilverVortex

fuck not again *lights hand on fire*
I had problems with the thok mostly because I was using a controller. It's alot easier with keyboard and mouse but it's still hard to get used to. I can understand why most people are very turned off by the thok especially people who are interested in playing the game with a controller. If SRB2 wants to be more controller and newcomer friendly, the thok has to be changed or replaced.

I also think the thok is somewhat boring but this is a personal opinion divorced from my prior statements.

i think the reason you and many beginners who aren't a fan of the thok is because it's not overall the best tool for the first few levels, or at least until the player gets to grips with the controls, because usually the first time through a sonic game, especially a 3d one like srb2, one would just take it slow and process everything in the levels. the thok is made for high speed gameplay, which, yeah, is what sonic is, but like i said, people who take it slow initially would probably get turned off by the thok.
if the thok were to be temporarily or permanently replaced though it would break up the speedrunning community because of how useful the move is in speedruns (for reasons i mentioned earlier).
i'd personally suggest the devs do what they think could be the right move, but personally i'd like something along the lines of pointy sonic's double jump; since its speed is determined by pre-existing momentum it would be useful for correctional jumps for beginners but also for speedrunners as a way to cut corners without losing speed.
really if you think about it it's just a momentum based jump thok lmao
 

Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.

Yes, although Thok in concept is simple and pretty-straightforward in terms of how to use it, in my opinion, the skill gap between newcomers and more advanced players is way too big due to how the recklessness of the Thok’s viability is hard to get used to, therefore making it difficult for newcomers to adapt to the more advanced side of things.

The player should be able to figure out the versatility of the Thok by experimenting, not by watching some guide of a speedrunner who’s played the game for far longer than the player has just to get some idea of how to do such advance maneuvers, but worse yet, struggle realizing that the way they most likely used the Thok (I.G spamming it to get great amounts of speed) is not (or at least, in a most areas of the game) the most efficient way of passing through said levels.

This might seem like a good thing, but that only raises the skill gap even more, as now, players instead of learning the ability and using it on the fly to find new and exciting ways the beat the levels, is now memorizing everyplace where the Thok can be taken advantage of without experimenting and finding the true potential of the Thok by themselves. This exact same experience happened to me and even though I’ve played a bunch of SRB2 before 2.2 was released, I still couldn’t wrap my head around the 4-5 months of using Sonic and practicing all the different zones. Even now after being a bit more experienced with the gimmicks and versatility, I find myself struggling in certain sections to realize the full potential of the Thok. This in turn, frustrating newcomers and leading them to play another character.

Trust me, I’m a fan of the Thok too, and I love the idea of moving it to someone else. (preferably a new character as I think Metal should stay unique with his hover ability) Although taking Sonic’s ability completely away from his is definitely not the correct choice, something like the SA2 Bounce or Derp’s Bounce or even my personal favorite, the Rebound Dash, are all abilities that have great vertical versatility and most importantly, feel great in motion. I’ve played with all three of these and unlike the Thok, I found myself improvising a lot more and being rewarded for using my knowledge of the ability correctly.

Sonic in general needs that vertical moment, and staying with the Thok (although I love it so much) is just not the right move.
 

Goldenhog

Wandering Protagonist
It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
Most people are gonna want their instant gratification. They'll likely skip the tutorial cuz ain't nobody's got time for that, they'll want to play as Sonic because he's the cool guy and also in the game's title and also the first option in the Character Select screen, and they'll want to use the thok because haha fast sonic go thokthokthokthok. Maybe I'm just a cynical old man yelling at the clouds but that's how things seem like to me. Thus, moving the thok to another character is totally warranted, IMO.

My vote for what Sonic's ability should be is still the Arc Jump from Katmint's rebalancing mod - it's a double jump, but with increased air control, slowfall if you hold the button, and can chain into shield abilities so it doesn't obsolete the Whirlwind Jump. But the devs are apparently working on a complete revamp to the game's physics, maybe they'll come up with the definitive ability along the way.

Why Espio? Vector was the one with the thok-like move in Knuckles Chaotix...
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
Why Espio? Vector was the one with the thok-like move in Knuckles Chaotix...

From a character standpoint, he makes the most sense to me. Espio is a ninja, and ninja's are commonly depicted as speedy characters who strike enemies quickly and re-gain distance just as quick. As such, the thok fits the theme quite nicely.
 

Boost

Member
Goldenhog said:
and also the first option in the Character Select screen
Correction: the first option in Character Select screen is Sonic&Tails
Goldenhog said:
Why Espio? Vector was the one with the thok-like move in Knuckles Chaotix...
Whatever happened in Chaotix, stayed in Chaotix.
time gear said:
Espio is a ninja, and ninja's are commonly depicted as speedy characters who strike enemies quickly and re-gain distance just as quick.
Eh, this one is questionable... Sure, ninjas are depicted like that, but that is entertainment. Surely the audience wouldn't be excited watching a random guy in dull clothes waiting for hours for something to happen.
Espio himself was known to have wall/ceiling cling and "Ninja Arts: Camouflage!".
What if we gave Sonic no ability?
Frankly speaking, it would be awful. We want Sonic to be easier to play as, not harder. With that said I don't think I can add anything of value to this discussion. Sure, getting used to thok is difficult, experimenting and stuff...
Nothing prevents you from not spamming thok as if jump was the only button in the game, right? You thok in the first stage, you fall into a pool of water or something, you climb out of it, you should be able to avoid the same mistake, right?
 

Charonik08

No Charks in this pool!
Side note, is there a way to combine the bounce with the rebound dash? I've mentioned this before in the thread (I didn't know the name of the ability though).

I haven’t tested this out, but it may be possible to use both addons at the same time. (talking about SA2 Bounce sense Derp is a separate character unless someone makes a custom Lua for Sonic using said ability) If you’d want it more to be just an air ability instead of a Shield and Air button ability than it could get more complicated than that, as it would then have to trigger the Rebound Dash... Dash whenever it registers your position to be next to a wall. I haven’t delved into coding much myself, but it seems challenging enough and may not be so intuitive for newcomers who wouldn’t notice at first glance that you can bounce off walls if you’re right next to them. Though I do think this would be so cool to see.

Frankly speaking, it would be awful. We want Sonic to be easier to play as, not harder. With that said I don't think I can add anything of value to this discussion. Sure, getting used to thok is difficult, experimenting and stuff...
Nothing prevents you from not spamming thok as if jump was the only button in the game, right? You thok in the first stage, you fall into a pool of water or something, you climb out of it, you should be able to avoid the same mistake, right?

I guess, but I feel like Sonic’s main motive should be going fast (obviously) and having an air ability that speeds him up is good... but then you start using it recklessly and once you learnt that most of the time when you use the Thok you fail miserably because you don’t have enough experience, you’ll not continue using it for the fear of Thok’ing into a bottomless pit or anything else really. That’s why I offer the solution of giving him a ability that feels good in motion and is really fluid mid-gameplay, like the SA2 Bounce, or the Rebound Dash, or the Arc Jump, or any of the many abilities already mentioned on this thread.
 
I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.

You can watch playthroughs on youtube and see. MegaGWolf even has an episode called "BEGONE THOK" which is the point in his playthrough where he concludes that the thok hurts him more than it helps him.
 

Boost

Member
SA2 Bounce
There is a tiny problem that Bounce move shares with Drop Dash: it requires a floor to operate. And this is not always available in the same "Tricky jumping over a pit" situation that was discussed so many times.
OP345 said:
If your game needs newcomers to sit and think really hard about the right way to use an ability, that's a high skill floor
If the newcomers are ragequitting because the game wants them to think before doing something stupid, that's called low brainpower, not high skill floor.
 

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