The Swimming Debate.

[Pyrakid Wolfo]

So, Tails and Knuckles both "swim" when using their ability underwater. Tails' swim is basically his fly as he can go vertical and horizontal infinitely until he gets tired. But his Swim is different as he is fast when doing it.
Knuckles' swim... I just am confused by. I believe it stems from one of the Sonic Advance games, where Knuckles could stay afloat above water? But anyways, Knuckles' swim is very different from Tails' swim, Knuckles does not seem to be any faster when swimming, and he cannot swim upward or downward, as letting go of the A button cancels the swim. It feels very similar to his normal glide, but they say that he has new controls when "swimming", as before they changed it so that Knuckles swam underwater, he just glided underwater.
What's the most noticeable difference between gliding underwater and swimming with Knuckles. Why is Tails swim so good compared to Knuckles' swim. Does Knuckles suck?

 

[cookiefonster]

The main difference between Knuckles' swimming and gliding is that while swimming, he can turn much faster using the movement keys. That's what "new controls" refers to.

 

[NeonSRB2]

Yea, wish it would be added to other characters like fang, maybe have him bounce midair and swim down to the ground until he can bounce again

Just an idea

 

[Icarus]

His "swimming" is literally the same as you'd get in Sonic 2 or 3&K... Sonic Advance is a modern game but Robo Blast isn't.

 

[time gear]

His "swimming" is literally the same as you'd get in Sonic 2 or 3&K... Sonic Advance is a modern game but Robo Blast isn't.

I'd consider the Advance series as classic era style games. The characters using their Dreamcast era designs doesn't really mean anything. They were also made long before SEGA started marketing "Modern" and "Classic" as different things.

 

[Axolex53]

I'd consider the Advance series as classic era style games. The characters using their Dreamcast era designs doesn't really mean anything. They were also made long before SEGA started marketing "Modern" and "Classic" as different things.

Oh god, i remember this debate on a specific Server, and trust me, Advance triology is NOT a classic game. (Yeah, even if uses the Sonic 1,2,3 & K, Formula, still is a modern Game)

 

[Icarus]

I'd consider the Advance series as classic era style games. The characters using their Dreamcast era designs doesn't really mean anything. They were also made long before SEGA started marketing "Modern" and "Classic" as different things.

Excuse me what?! The Advance games are clearly from the Dreamcast era (and it's not just their design, the overall esthetic of the trilogy reflected that era).

The only Classic era game we got post-Adventure are the Japanese release of 3D Blast on the Saturn, Sonic Pocket Adventure on the Neogeo Pocket (yes, it has the green-eyed Sonic design but the game is still happening in Sonic 2 levels with Sonic 3&K musics and doesn't have the modern elements included in the Advance game) and finally Sonic Mania, the rest are just Modern Sonic game in 2D.

 

[time gear]

Excuse me what?! The Advance games are clearly from the Dreamcast era (and it's not just their design, the overall esthetic of the trilogy reflected that era).

The only Classic era game we got post-Adventure are the Japanese release of 3D Blast on the Saturn, Sonic Pocket Adventure on the Neogeo Pocket (yes, it has the green-eyed Sonic design but the game is still happening in Sonic 2 levels with Sonic 3&K musics and doesn't have the modern elements included in the Advance game) and finally Sonic Mania, the rest are just Modern Sonic game in 2D.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that the Advance games are literally just using the Classic Sonic game mechanics, plus a few extras added on such as b button attacks and Advance 3's team feature.

They're 2D platformers made in a time when SEGA wasn't differentiating between "Classic" and "Modern". In their eyes, they probably just saw what they were making as a natural evolution of the 2D game formula they had established with how the series had changed since.

This really doesn't need to be an argument. If Mania is a Classic Era style game, so is the Advance trilogy. Character designs don't really take priority over actual game mechanics.

Oh god, i remember this debate on a specific Server, and trust me, Advance triology is NOT a classic game. (Yeah, even if uses the Sonic 1,2,3 & K, Formula, still is a modern Game)

I don't really know or care about this server or the debate on it, or whatever conclusion they came to. The only thing that matters to me is the real world context. There was no differentiation between "Classic" and "Modern" Sonics at the time, and that entire concept is just a marketing ploy by SEGA to sell Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic separately to begin with. Additionally, Sonic Advance now pretty much counts as a retro game (It released 20 years ago, some people even refer to 15 year old games as retro), so it's kinda silly to call it "Modern".

Seriously, it's like the Sonic fanbase is deliberately going out of their way to overcomplicate things. If I wasn't already a Sonic fan, this kind of thing would be turning me away hardcore right now.

 

[cookiefonster]

His "swimming" is literally the same as you'd get in Sonic 2 or 3&K... Sonic Advance is a modern game but Robo Blast isn't.

Honestly, it's a little silly to be hung up on which Sonic games qualify as "classic" or "modern". SRB2 generally is inspired by the Genesis Sonic games, but it does borrow a fair amount of material or general ideas from later Sonic games. Amy's spring hammering, for instance, is a feature from the Advance games if I remember right.

 

[Axolex53]

Honestly, it's a little silly to be hung up on which Sonic games qualify as "classic" or "modern".

I agree with you in this point, i have so many things that tangles my mind and i don't wanna see this debate again...
My conclusion: Sonic Advance is a Modern Game because it's in the modern Chronological Timeline, that's all

 

[GrayAngel]

I was told that Knuckles was able to swim in SRB1, so it's probably based on that more than Advance.

 

[DrTapeworm]

Knuckles swims because it looks cool

 

[Icarus]

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that the Advance games are literally just using the Classic Sonic game mechanics, plus a few extras added on such as b button attacks and Advance 3's team feature.

They're 2D platformers made in a time when SEGA wasn't differentiating between "Classic" and "Modern". In their eyes, they probably just saw what they were making as a natural evolution of the 2D game formula they had established with how the series had changed since.

This really doesn't need to be an argument. If Mania is a Classic Era style game, so is the Advance trilogy. Character designs don't really take priority over actual game mechanics.

I don't really know or care about this server or the debate on it, or whatever conclusion they came to. The only thing that matters to me is the real world context. There was no differentiation between "Classic" and "Modern" Sonics at the time, and that entire concept is just a marketing ploy by SEGA to sell Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic separately to begin with. Additionally, Sonic Advance now pretty much counts as a retro game (It released 20 years ago, some people even refer to 15 year old games as retro), so it's kinda silly to call it "Modern".

Seriously, it's like the Sonic fanbase is deliberately going out of their way to overcomplicate things. If I wasn't already a Sonic fan, this kind of thing would be turning me away hardcore right now.

Hard disagree, Sega has officially said that Modern Sonic started with the first Adventure game, you're not the one to decide that.
The Advance trilogy is modern and it's a fact made by Sega themselves.

Honestly, it's a little silly to be hung up on which Sonic games qualify as "classic" or "modern". SRB2 generally is inspired by the Genesis Sonic games, but it does borrow a fair amount of material or general ideas from later Sonic games. Amy's spring hammering, for instance, is a feature from the Advance games if I remember right.

Amy had her hammer since The Fighters, a classic era Sonic game.

SRB2 is only about Classic Sonic and I'm glad they won't put elements from the Modern games in it.

 

[time gear]

Hard disagree, Sega has officially said that Modern Sonic started with the first Adventure game, you're not the one to decide that.
The Advance trilogy is modern and it's a fact made by Sega themselves.

You're not going to like, source that or anything? I've done some digging around for this and turned up nothing so far.

 

[cookiefonster]

Amy had her hammer since The Fighters, a classic era Sonic game.

I meant Amy's spring hammering. Also, Amy's moveset in SRB2 is quite similar to her moveset from SA1, and there's no way that was a coincidence. The main differences are that there is no hammer jump but there is spring hammering.

It's also worth pointing out that Fang and Metal Sonic's movesets in SRB2 both have similarities to the shooter/mech stages in SA1 and SA2 (shooting enemies and monitors for Fang, hovering and speeding up if moving long enough for Metal Sonic). Not to mention that the thok's sound effect is taken from SA1, and the emblem system is inspired by that game as well. It's downright false to claim that SRB2 doesn't take any inspiration from "modern" Sonic games.

(Also, for a much sillier example, Sonic 06 is mentioned in one of the quit messages.)

 

[NeonSRB2]

I meant Amy's spring hammering. Also, Amy's moveset in SRB2 is quite similar to her moveset from SA1, and there's no way that was a coincidence. The main differences are that there is no hammer jump but there is spring hammering.

It's also worth pointing out that Fang and Metal Sonic's movesets in SRB2 both have similarities to the shooter/mech stages in SA1 and SA2 (shooting enemies and monitors for Fang, hovering and speeding up if moving long enough for Metal Sonic). Not to mention that the thok's sound effect is taken from SA1, and the emblem system is inspired by that game as well. It's downright false to claim that SRB2 doesn't take any inspiration from "modern" Sonic games.

(Also, for a much sillier example, Sonic 06 is mentioned in one of the quit messages.)

Lets be clear Ariel Garden is probably based off of Sonic 06

Jokes aside swimming is just something from tails that is being copied over to knuckles, same ability but with extra mobility underwater.

 

[Tatsuru]

Hard disagree, Sega has officially said that Modern Sonic started with the first Adventure game, you're not the one to decide that.
The Advance trilogy is modern and it's a fact made by Sega themselves.

SRB2 is only about Classic Sonic and I'm glad they won't put elements from the Modern games in it.

I'm pretty sure you've been clapped for bogus takes like this one before but at the very least I want to ask you again to stop picking on people's suggestions for SRB2 with this dumb logic, specially when you're dead wrong about it.

Sega doesn't have a strong grasp on what a "Classic Sonic" or a "Modern Sonic" is, or at least never had, until it became marketable. The first official use of "Classic Sonic" was in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, 3 years before Generations, where the 2 first games' designs appeared as stickers. The Classic/Modern distinction until then was majoritarily fandom-based, and there are also alternative interpretations where a third, intermediary era exists - the Adventure era. Adventure 1 and 2, Heroes, Advance, all those games until about '06 where Sonic was transitioning from a roundish mute cute mascot to a lanky green eyed punk, Sonic's friends and world were getting more fleshing out and the gameplay started spreading its wings by experimenting as much with platforming in 3D as it could without sacrificing exploration. The cut isn't very clear, but what we call "Modern" started happening abruptly around Unleashed and Colors, where Sonic went back to being the only relevant character and the games are mostly dynamic rollercoaster courses with level design being purely scenic.

True, SRB2 was conceived before Adventure was a thing, but I think you can tell which of those eras it draws from it the most. We have multiple characters with varied gameplay styles, sprawling level design that encourages exploration, and a sense of flow that is not quite Genesis but it also not quite Modern, with our own touches to it. If you think that, say, the Adventure and Advance games are truly Modern, SRB2 is neck deep into Modern inspiration and you're contradicting yourself.

Consider yourself warned: get your facts straight before you start shit with people because of fruitless nitpicking. We decide what to put in SRB2 and we have no qualms of what to draw inspiration from, be it Classic, Modern or Adventure. This gatekeeping goes nowhere.

 

[Nitro Turbo]

Does Knuckles suck?

No !
Knuckles'swimming ability debuted in adventure 2 and the other games ......
While classic era we never saw knuckles before swim ! In official games or animations or ......
So I think there is no need for knuckles to swim ! His ability to climb only is very useful !

 

[Saturn Ross]

I rather like Knuckles' swimming animation and physics, they're a great touch and make him feel more "complete", even if he didn't swim in 3&K. Just because SRB2 is based on the classics, doesn't mean it can't improve on things like animations! The faster turning is nice too, though it does mess with me when I'm back in air and can't turn that fast.

Hard disagree, Sega has officially said that Modern Sonic started with the first Adventure game, you're not the one to decide that.
The Advance trilogy is modern and it's a fact made by Sega themselves.

Sorry to shoot you down even moreso, but in Generations' development, they planned to have an Adventure Era with Ryan Drummond playing a third Sonic. He turned the role down and the mechanic was scrapped, but the idea of an Adventure era still holds up. The Advance series I consider to be in that transitional Adventure era between Classic and Modern despite the game mechanics.

 

[time gear]

Just because SRB2 is based on the classics, doesn't mean it can't improve on things like animations!

Or in general. SRB2 was already doing things the classics didn't do a long time ago when they implemented the thok. Just because the game is inspired by the classics doesn't mean it should be shackled by them.

Sorry to shoot you down even moreso, but in Generations' development, they planned to have an Adventure Era with Ryan Drummond playing a third Sonic. He turned the role down and the mechanic was scrapped, but the idea of an Adventure era still holds up. The Advance series I consider to be in that transitional Adventure era between Classic and Modern despite the game mechanics.

Even the final product still has the Dreamcast Era; composed of Speed Highway, City Escape, and Seaside Hill.