When talking about rebooting a gameplay style, it's not just a matter of making it "simple" or "complex", but largely one of identity. Will the moveset you come up with still register in players minds as belonging to the character they are playing as, or is the moveset simply being rebooted for the sake of being rebooted? Or to put it differently, will players feel more like they are playing as Mario in a Sonic outfit, or will they really feel like they are playing as Sonic?
I 100% agree with this, I did think giving Sonic a moveset closer to Mario's moveset would just feel like a skin, instead of feeling like I'm playing as Sonic, but I only used Mario as an example of how that character moveset has evolved into what Odyssey has, and how I want Sonic to have that same kind of natural evolution for his moveset, the issue is, in order for that to happen, I do think it needs to be considered from the ground up, I wasn't saying every ability needed to get removed or changed, just reconsidered as a whole.
Ideally, any moveset in a platformer like this should be as simple as you can manage it. If the player has to memorize what effectively amounts to a dozen fighting game combos just to do halfway decent at the game, you're fighting against the current in regards to gameplay fluidity. The player needs to feel in control so that if they die, they feel like it's their own fault rather than shoddy game design. That doesn't mean that more complex controls aren't allowed, but the complexity should come from skillful application rather than complex execution.
This I agree with as well, I'm mostly at fault for not specifying what I meant with every detail on the main post, but I didn't want the first post to be super long. But yes, complexity to me doesn't translate directly into tons of moves or complex inputs, going back to Mario Odyssey, to me that is a complex moveset, but it doesn't need a very skillful player to be able to use his moveset in a normal playtrough.
For example, Adventure 2 Sonic has a spindash, a bounce, and a homing attack. Spindash and bounce are mapped to the same button, and you can jump out of a spindash. While airborn from bouncing or jumping, you can press jump again to homing attack. This presents a certain level of complexity to his moveset in that Sonic has options on how to make use of his mobility and attacks. You could spindash jump to cross a larger gap, bounce before you land, and then use the added height from the bounce to land a homing attack on an enemy which delvers you to a further ahead platform, all by making use of only two buttons. Sonic's moves flow together in a way that leaves the player feeling fluidly in control while being able to perform skillful complex actions with only a few button presses. The moveset itself is simple, but you can do complex actions with it if you're good at it
This I partially agree with, but I disagree with the feeling of fluidity from SA2 moveset, mostly because, in the stages where you control Sonic, it doesn't feel as if it they were designed entirely with Sonic abilites in mind. For example, you mentioned how you can use the spindash along with the jump to cross larger gaps, you could even jump at an angle and gain some height, and while true on paper, considering the speed and camera angles the game works with, I feel like the game doesn't help you play around with those types of things, I've only seen people who have beaten SA2 multiple times be able to make those types of movements, and considering that, I want to be able to feel like I'm in control of Sonic wether or not I've beaten the game before. That being said, it's mostly the spindash I have issue with, at least in how it works in SA2, I think both the homing attack and bounce work great mostly.
Overall, I don't really feel like Sonic's moveset needs to be rebooted so much as it needs to be refined. SEGA needs to decide which moves Sonic has available to him flow best together for the gameplay they are trying to achieve, and then have the confidence to go for it. His moveset should feel familiar, fluid, simple, and have a high skill ceiling without punishing newer players. Something in the middle between Adventure, Adventure 2, and Boost would probably feel quite nice.
I don't think just combining existing movesets or refining the ones they already have is an option, if the main moveset doesn't have a great foundation to expand upon in the first place. If you consider the Boost formula, which I actually really like, I don't think it has that mouch ground in terms of expansion to cover, since a lot of the movement Sonic has is constrained and controlled by the game itself, and not by the player, so expanding it would usually just create either more issues, or abilites that are underused (Like the parkour ability in Lost World).
Now, the SA/SA2 moveset does have a sort of foundation that I think could be expanded and refined, but I still think it would need to be reconsidered from the ground up, mostly because of the lack of fluidity from those games, it is only fluid once you played the game countless of times, either because of the lack of options Sonic has while moving, or just generally the clunkiness of the engine, altough that is less about the moveset itself.
As for whether to go with a more simple or complex moveset, Sonic at it's core has always been about speed and fluidity, regardless of how much momentum factors into this. You want to Sonic to spend as much time moving forward without grinding to a halt as possible. This is largely why the Boost formula is so widely accepted despite being a far cry from the classic momentum style gameplay. Even though the playstyle gives you speed at the press of a button without having to earn it, keeping that speed and especially making the most of it can be something of a challenge. The appeal comes in with trying to complete stages as fast as possible without taking hits.
Yes, I believe Sonic at its core is about speed, but I think a lot of people misunderstand what that means, or what it could mean for the character, for instance, when talking about SA/SA2 and how the moveset can be used, usually people put examples on how they can skip entire parts of the level using certain string of abilities, and while it is fun, I don't think that's the same feeling I want for a Sonic game, I want to be able to traverse through any obstacle the game throws at me quickly and fluidly, ideally without losing speed, and for that, I believe tha actual level design and moveset has to coincide in a way, so that it's simple to try different ways of going through the level, and in doing so both exploration and beating the stages quickly is encouraged.
