Sonic 2 and 3 are better than 1

[Icarus]

I don't think Sonic 1 is inherently worse for not having a spindash.

I do, especially because of how convenient it is in the later games.

The reason Sonic 1 sucks is because a lot of the level design is frankly just terrible. There are a lot of segments in Marble and Spring Yard that are just forced waiting for obstacles to clear. Each zone having three acts also causes a lot of these zones to wear out their welcome pretty quickly. Sonic CD struck a better balance with this by turning the third act into mini-levels focused around the boss encounter.

Sonic 1 doesn't suck, it's just an average early 90's platformer like many, Marble Zone or not (and Spring Yard is an actually good level, it's just that you need to get better and not fall down to the path where you have to wait.

On the other hand Sonic CD got Collision Chaos which is probably the weakest Casino level in the classic series and the time travel with the search for the hologram and cage is good on paper but not executed really well in-game.

 

[Chezi]

I do, especially because of how convenient it is in the later games.

Sonic 1 doesn't suck, it's just an average early 90's platformer like many, Marble Zone or not (and Spring Yard is an actually good level, it's just that you need to get better and not fall down to the path where you have to wait.

On the other hand Sonic CD got Collision Chaos which is probably the weakest Casino level in the classic series and the time travel with the search for the hologram and cage is good on paper but not executed really well in-game.

I wouldn't say Sonic 1 is worse compared to other Sonic games because of he lack of Spindash (For the reasons that Cobalt said and that it was added in rereleases). It's obvious that later games would improve on the original, so I'd like to instead compare Sonic 1 to Super Mario World. They're both 90s platforming games of the same vein that came out roughly at the same. They both have a heavy emphasis on platforming and stop-and-go action. Which one you prefer is entirely subjective, but I'd argue that Sonic 1 did better by laying out some basic ground rules that contrast with Mario's rules. For example, defeating enemies by spinning. I'm also convinced that Green Hill is set up to break the rules that Mario had laid down. The monitor at the start of the level may have had players trying to jump into it from below like Mario's ? Blocks. After some experimentation, the player realizes that they have to jump on it (which displays a spinning animation). Players would also try to destroy the first Motobug by jumping on it like Mario, although this succeeds. The game subconsciously tells the player that you have to spin to defeat enemies and open up monitors. The S hole shows you that you can roll on the ground if you haven't already figured it out and that you don't need to jump to defeat enemies, as shown by the Buzz Bombers that the hill launches you into. The Choppers that hop up and down the bridge can also demonstrate how the player doesn't necessarily need to jump on top of the enemy, as they are able to attack from all angles

yes I know that screenshot is from Mania, but my rant still stands

 

[time gear]

If we are going to talk about Sonic 1's design in comparison to Mario, it's worth pointing out (perhaps even imperative) that Sonic was outright designed to compete with Mario. The deliberate intention was to take Mario's place within the industry and carry SEGA up above Nintendo's heights. The differences as such were very, very intentional. Mario and Sonic may be franchises that play well together now, but back in the day their rivalry was vicious and legendary.

While most people would say Mario ended up winning the console wars, I have a different viewpoint on that matter. SEGA may not be making their own consoles anymore, but that puts their franchises including Sonic in a very powerful position. You can find Sonic games on just about everything available, while Nintendo franchises such as Mario tend to require you to own specifically Nintendo systems. This gives SEGA much more reach and accessibility. Not everyone can play Mario, but most people who can't can still play Sonic.

Back on track though, while Sonic 1 originally lacked the spindash and had some pacing issues, it still overall holds up magnificently. Between it and Super Mario World, I'd probably rather play SMW, but Sonic 1 laid the groundwork for Sonic 2 and 3 to improve on, and is singlehandedly the reason why those games are as fantastic as they are. It's easy to take Sonic 1 for granted now, but back when it was new it was revolutionary and influential, and there wasn't anything else quite like it on the market. If Mario invented the wheel so to speak when it comes to this style of platforming genre, Sonic showed up just to perfect it, and it all started with this game.

 

[Icarus]

Honestly I played Sonic 1 long ago on a real Genesis and I got stuck several times in Marble and Labyrinth Zone.

I think that the biggest problem is that it was a saveless, continue-less (unless you get to do special stages and 50 rings in it) game made when even Super Mario Bros 3 allowed you to redo the world as many times as you want to.

But once I got to redo the game on mobile it became much, much easier (which is why I think it's the definitive version of the game).

And once you finish the game you can redo the better levels such as Starlight as many times as you want to.

 

[time gear]

I think that the biggest problem is that it was a saveless, continue-less (unless you get to do special stages and 50 rings in it) game made when even Super Mario Bros 3 allowed you to redo the world as many times as you want to.

Or you could just input the level select code on the title screen. I know this counts as a secret, but if you knew about it you didn't have to worry about saving progress or getting game overs.

 

[Icarus]

Or you could just input the level select code on the title screen. I know this counts as a secret, but if you knew about it you didn't have to worry about saving progress or getting game overs.

That's technically cheating.

I can understand why Sonic 3&K had a save system, the game is probably a bit longer than Sonic 1 and 2 combined (even if I'm surprised that Sonic & Knuckles doesn't have one). Even Sonic 3 standalone had longer zones than Sonic 2's.

Now that we're still talking about Sonic 1, I need to replay the Decompilation but wasn't there a new update with the drop dash?

 

[clairebun]

Sonic 1 doesn't suck, it's just an average early 90's platformer like many, Marble Zone or not (and Spring Yard is an actually good level, it's just that you need to get better and not fall down to the path where you have to wait.

On the other hand Sonic CD got Collision Chaos which is probably the weakest Casino level in the classic series and the time travel with the search for the hologram and cage is good on paper but not executed really well in-game.

I mean, "suck" is subjective, but I've played average platformers that didn't make me want to quit when going into the second area. I seriously can't understate how much Marble Zone just makes me want to not play Sonic.

Spring Yard as a whole actually isn't even that bad, but it still has elements of sluggishness in its level design that don't need to be there. The zone as a whole is "okay", probably around S2 Oil Ocean.

Sonic CD's problem with time travel objectives is more systemic in that it's asking the player to find the needle in the haystack. Level design-wise, CD is a mixed bag, but it did away with mandatory waiting mechanics almost entirely, which I really appreciate. For that reason alone I'd say Collision Chaos is still more enjoyable than Spring Yard in spite of its spring abuse.

 

[Mr Kixx Reborn]

I don't think Sonic 1 was that bad, however it did have a lot of potential to be a way better game than it was, while yes 3 Zones kinda wears out the player it helps you get better at the stages more, LABYRINTH Zone on the other hand was complete shit and no one will ever talk about that stage again. Overall Sonic 1 isn't necessarily bad, It has some major downsides but the game is still able to be enjoyable, I still play the original to this day with my genesis.

 

[time gear]

I'll briefly go over the three main stages people complain about for my take on why they're not really that terrible:

Marble Zone - The main flaw with this level is it's slower pacing. It involves a lot of careful platforming and being forced to wait with little opportunity to go fast for longer than 3 seconds. While it goes against what you are taught in Green Hill, if you play through this level patiently without trying to speedrun it, it's a pretty chill stage that's less threatening than it looks so long as you remain careful and think ahead.

Spring Yard Zone - For the most part, nobody takes issue with this level. There's just two things people don't like: The rollers are fast and can easily hit Sonic, killing your momentum and making you lose rings. The vertical platform elevators are slow and force you to wait around. Other than this, it's pretty easy to stay in a spin state for most of the level and gain some mad speed and airtime.

Labyrinth Zone - Sonic moves slow underwater and is at risk of drowning, accompanied by the infamously stressful drowning music. For the most part, progressing through this zone with the same mentality of Marble Zone makes for a much better experience. Rather than being reckless and skipping bubble spawners to get through the level fast, make deliberate use of the bubbles every chance you get while being very careful and deliberate with your platforming, careful not to fall into any of the various traps laid out for you in the zone.

The common theme in each of these zones is that they force Sonic to slow down, which is what people don't want to do while playing Sonic. It is admittedly a problem, and is something they probably should have thought through better, but at the same time I feel like people overstate how bad these zones really are. I've felt mildly annoyed by them, but they never genuinely frustrated me or made me want to stop playing (aside from on the GBA version).

Sonic 4 on the other hand is an example of level design that can be genuinely frustrating. Lost Labyrinth, the Labyrinth Zone equivalent, is actually worse than the real Labyrinth Zone for all the wrong reasons, and singlehandedly makes me want to uninstall the game every time I play it. Sonic 4 overall has mediocre graphics and feels genuinely worse than most fangames in every other way unlike Sonic 1 which still holds up quite well, even the original Genesis/Mega Drive version. The level design in Sonic 4 episode 1 feels a lot like some kid with no understanding of level design made a romhack with basic platforming, with the occasional badly placed enemy mixed in to screw you over and puzzles that are usually neither fast nor fun. Episode 2 does a bit better, though Episode Metal is everything wrong with Episode 1 on steroids.

Overall Sonic 1 may not have the refined level design and pacing of it's immediate sequels, but I'd not hesitate to say it does better than many people give it credit for and it still holds up as a great game today.

 

[Icarus]

Thinking of Sonic 1, I really wish Mania actually used Starlight Zone to represent the game instead of the usual Green Hills.

At one point I thought that Sonic 4 Episode 2 was better than Sonic 1 but once I played the mobile port I kinda changed my mind (unless you're making me compare vanilla Sonic 1 vs Sonic 4 Episode 2 as a standalone title)

 

[Dragonick]

I think Sonic 1 and 3 are actually better than Sonic 2. In my opinion, 2's Zones didn't have as good art and the sprites looked inconsistent and unusual, the music isn't as good in places and I don't like the feel.

Sonic 1 had some level design annoyances and other minor oopsies, but the game felt more consistent and the parts of the game that didn't suck shined: for instance, Green Hill has more routes and more interesting gimmicks, promoting exploration; and the I think the special stages were fairly fun. I find playing through the game more enjoyable, since for me Sonic 2 is a little overlong and has too many frustrating parts.

Sonic 3 had more deep and explorable Zones, and fixed pretty much everything bad about the previous two entries. The art was brilliant and the music catchy. It is significantly longer than the other two games, but it's certainly not too long. I prefer this to Sonic 2.

Sorry for the long message, I feel fairly strong about this.

 

[Macholor]

Keep in mind that your talking about the FIRST game. Ya know. All the stuff in 2 and 3 weren't even planned yet....

 

[Icarus]

Super Mario Bros 3 is better than SMB1 for sure...

On the other hand some may prefer Mario Bros 2/USA over it. As for SMB2/JP (aka The Lost Levels) I guess that it's more of a Super Mario Bros 1.5 (like Sonic CD was to Sonic 1).

Technically sequels are supposed to be better but some may prefer the previous entries over the newer one (like how Megaman 2 is still considered to be the best of the Classic MM or even compared to the rest of the series, pretty much like MMX or that Super Metroid and the first Prime are compared to their sequels)

 

[Pinkio]

depends on your taste of levels (and music, i guess) more than everything else
Sonic 3 is a lot more carefully developed than the previous two games, we all should agree it's the best on the trilogy as it improved a lot of things that Sonic 2 didn't improve over Sonic 1
however Sonic 2 levels are inconsistent at many parts, i don't know how to explain though
but also you don't get anything on Sonic 1 for getting all the emeralds other than the good ending

so it's hard to determine if Sonic 1 is better than Sonic 2 or viceversa, but a fact is that Sonic 2 has the most annoying gameplay of all the 3

 

[Icarus]

depends on your taste of levels (and music, i guess) more than everything else
Sonic 3 is a lot more carefully developed than the previous two games, we all should agree it's the best on the trilogy as it improved a lot of things that Sonic 2 didn't improve over Sonic 1
however Sonic 2 levels are inconsistent at many parts, i don't know how to explain though
but also you don't get anything on Sonic 1 for getting all the emeralds other than the good ending

so it's hard to determine if Sonic 1 is better than Sonic 2 or viceversa, but a fact is that Sonic 2 has the most annoying gameplay of all the 3

I'll remind people that Sonic 2 was supposed to have time travel like Sonic CD so that's why there's inconsistency in the level progression.

 

[Heflito]

To be honest, while I've played through Sonic 1 a couple times in the past, I find it difficult to get through when I revisit it now(in terms of motivation not difficulty) I don't know if it's the lack of spin-dash, or the levels themselves. But, I've always found 2 & 3 to be far more enjoyable.

 

[Sonic_the_hedgehog]

how did this get super popular

 

[lnferno]

Keep in mind that your talking about the FIRST game. Ya know. All the stuff in 2 and 3 weren't even planned yet....

... actually, not quite. Sonic 2 and 3 pull heavily from concepts made for Sonic 1 that didn't make it in.
For example, there were sketches of a mud gimmick for Green Hill Zone, potentially. They didn't put it in, but it's direct implementation is present in both Oil Ocean's oil and Marble Garden's mud.

Spoiler: Bottom of this image!

Another example, we've seen that they were outright using S2 concept art for S3. For example...
This is concept art for Aquatic Ruin.

Now... look at this piece of concept art we KNOW was in effect in S3.

Spoiler: LARGE IMAGE! Trying to spare y'all.

 

[time gear]

... actually, not quite. Sonic 2 and 3 pull heavily from concepts made for Sonic 1 that didn't make it in.
For example, there were sketches of a mud gimmick for Green Hill Zone, potentially. They didn't put it in, but it's direct implementation is present in both Oil Ocean's oil and Marble Garden's mud.

I think the point they were making was that 2 and 3 had that backwards sight to draw from. Sonic 1 didn't. Sonic 1 was the first game in the series, so the only previous games it could draw from for ideas were games from other franchises such as Mario. 2 and 3 being able to reuse ideas that were scrapped in Sonic 1 was a privilege Sonic 1 didn't have.

 

[lnferno]

I think the point they were making was that 2 and 3 had that backwards sight to draw from. Sonic 1 didn't. Sonic 1 was the first game in the series, so the only previous games it could draw from for ideas were games from other franchises such as Mario. 2 and 3 being able to reuse ideas that were scrapped in Sonic 1 was a privilege Sonic 1 didn't have.

Yea, of course.