Ring Racers Suggestions

[ChaseSP]

...Though, I haven't done any code digging, so I can't say for sure. These are just my thoughts on it.

Ranks are just a measure of how well your overall racing is. Score is what matters for special stage access in a given cup and rings absolutely do contribute to it. You also get a life for each 50 rings stored which is useful for said stages.

If playing online Ring Bonus outright isn't tracked though because only lap bonus is really taken into account for power score changes as far as I'm aware.

 

[Candescence]

Side note, this game needs a story mode of some kind. The interactions between Tails and Eggman in the tutorials are incredibly charming and the Sealed Star special stages alone beg so many freaking questions by themselves, never mind a whole bunch of spoiler stuff, as well as why a bunch of post-SA2 characters are playable if Eggman went straight after the ARK incident...

Also, some of the tracks are definitely half-baked at best. Endless Mine has visible dev textures, for pete's sake. And whoever designed that bottleneck in Balloon Park deserves shame.

Part of the problem with the dynamic difficulty is that, for reasons I'm not sure, doing well in the prison break also increments it. Maybe to make getting to the sealed stars harder? But it feels a bit unfair at times and I don't think it should do this.

Okay that's dumb. Getting to the sealed stars shouldn't be that hard, especially considering the later sealed star stages really ramp up the difficulty. Special stages in other Sonic games aren't nearly as hard to access.

I haven't personally found it too unreasonable to get an A Rank. Difficult, sure, but totally achievable. It helps that a perfect score is not required, I don't know the specific minutiae but I have definitely had many races where, say, I didn't finish with 20 rings, and I still got an A. It probably works on some sort of internal points system based on the combined total lap and ring bonus to determine your rank.

Maybe, but I also personally think, at the very least, the either the use of continues shouldn't factor into your final rank at the end of a grand prix, or the only criteria for accessing special stages should be getting first place in a grand prix (apparently that's already the case for Vicious and/or Master), especially considering the nature of this game often results in you having to restart a track because you got completely screwed over at the last second for reasons completely beyond your control. It's especially galling when you fail a special stage and the game has the audacity to rank you down as a result because you used up all your lives.

Tyron has already gone into detail about why this likely won't happen:

I see. I guess there's a fair argument to be made there, though I'm not totally convinced.

I half agree with this because while it does feel unsatisfying to use, there is at least one course built around the mechanic (Pestilence) and I actually really like its use there; driving off of a ramp and timing the fast fall to bounce off of a sneaker panel to not fall out of the course is really fun and satisfying, and I don't think you'd be able to accomplish it in quite the same way if it didn't have that bounce recoil like some server mods have removed. It makes me wish there were more courses that more obviously made use of the mechanic in this manner instead of most courses having long vertical drops that you fast fall down without much going on. Not a lot that can be done about though in vanilla outside of major track overhauls, but something for map makers to keep in mind.

On release I thought the bounce was frustrating and also felt it should be removed, but the patch to add the direction change mechanic to it completely changed my mind on it - it's a satisfying course correction tool now, and I think the bounce works in that context. For simply reaching the ground faster, I tend to use the midair mini-turbo boost (I'm not calling it a Triangle Dash...) anyway, and that's also a really fun technique to pull off - especially in stages such as Labyrinth, or on stages like Blizzard Peaks with the half-pipe turn.

I do think a name change would make sense though - just call it the bounce instead of the fast fall. Given it's more than likely supposed to be a Melee nod like several other mechanic names are - fast falling in Melee is *genuinely* faster, whereas the fall part here is, but not in the grand scheme of things.

I think it would help if the fast fall didn't cause a speed reduction (or at least not as much of one), then the bounce wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

I think there has to be a difference between saying "the rivals are overtuned" and "cut the rivals entirely." Rivals need to exist, I'd argue, because otherwise the Grand Prix system falls apart. If every CPU is equally skilled, their winrate against you is going to be evenly split, so no single rival is going to maintain a point lead ahead of you. Unless several are consistently beating you, which they shouldn't be, because the challenge of Grand Prix is to get first every race. So you need a singular CPU to be better than the rest
I don't think I even mind "that they cheat." Because how else would you have them be better? Just be even more competent? At that point, I figure you either stretch the limits of what the AI is capable of, or you're asking them to be Too perfect. If they rubberband in behind, they hypothetically will "cheat" when they're in back and you can't see it, but they'll ramp back down and be a reasonable fight when they're close enough for You to be the one doing the fighting.
Now, whether that pans out in practice is a different story, and all. But conceptually i think there's nothing wrong with having a singular CPU that rubberbands much more strongly. If anything, I think it's a courtesy that the game will point out to you exactly who it is. Without Rivals to threaten your win, either Everyone will be constantly hot on your heels, or No One will be.

Maybe removing the mechanic entirely is a little bit strong in retrospect, but I do still think it doesn't add as much to the Grand Prix experience as it could if the rubberbanding was nerfed quite a bit more and rivals had more interesting unique aspects to go along with them that actually made them fun to face against and provided incentive and opportunities for counterplay against them. Right now, the Rival system just being "giving cheats to the AI racer who has the most points aside from you at the moment" isn't interesting.

 

[casual koopa]

I still can't agree with most conceptual criticisms with the rival, but one thing I actually do think could go a long way is tuning their items to lean more towards jawz specifically. This would a) have the rivals be less rubberband-prone through the means of invincibility, while still maintaining their threat to you, and b) it would make that threat something you can interact with. The manual describes first place's selection of items as being specially tailored for defensive options, but often I've found I don't really Need the defense. Now, I enjoy laying down land mines and hyudoros instead, but I've seen a lot of people argue for that ring/item button split because "they don't have anything to do with their items." I can't see how this would be possible in any position but frontrunning in first, because otherwise you'll always have a target, so I would think this is what they mean; these people would hopefully be more satisfied with using their items if there were more pressure from jawz to use them on protection

 

[Steelie]

Part of the problem with the dynamic difficulty is that, for reasons I'm not sure, doing well in the prison break also increments it. Maybe to make getting to the sealed stars harder? But it feels a bit unfair at times and I don't think it should do this.

Is this how it actually is? If that's true, I don't understand why that would be the case. It makes perfect sense to have the CPUs step up their game if you win races against them, but taking down prisons has nothing to do with races in general, so why would they increment the difficulty? It explains why the AI difficulty spike feels overtuned by the the 3rd race - they jump in difficulty twice!

Can a dev clear this up, please? This genuinely doesn't sound intentional.

 

[Sonic Shadow]

I feel like the bigger problem with getting items in first is that they one allow you to defend against one opponent, IF you can hit, taking away your attention from the track, while you're at a massive disadvantage.

And then the rest of the pack overtakes you because you've slowed down too much and they're rubberbanding like a speeding train.

Just give a ring button. It might be against "The Vision" but why do you care? Just let people play the way they want. Fuck it!
Aren't people already changing or even removing fundamental aspects of the game online? Players should have the option to do something like it if it makes the game more fun.

 

[Tracker_TD]

I feel like the bigger problem with getting items in first is that they one allow you to defend against one opponent, IF you can hit, taking away your attention from the track, while you're at a massive disadvantage.

And then the rest of the pack overtakes you because you've slowed down too much and they're rubberbanding like a speeding train.

Just give a ring button. It might be against "The Vision" but why do you care? Just let people play the way they want. Fuck it!
Aren't people already changing or even removing fundamental aspects of the game online? Players should have the option to do something like it if it makes the game more fun.

To be fair, I'd say they do have the option - via those mods and stuff. Like, personally speaking I agree with the devs that separating the item/ring button would unbalance the game considerably in its current state, and it'd be a major change to introduce in an update. Keeping those sort of big gameplay changes to mods is fine, I think.

 

[Sonic Shadow]

To be fair, I'd say they do have the option - via those mods and stuff. Like, personally speaking I agree with the devs that separating the item/ring button would unbalance the game considerably in its current state, and it'd be a major change to introduce in an update. Keeping those sort of big gameplay changes to mods is fine, I think.

True, but there's nothing wrong with allowing a large amount of people experience the gameplay change and then revert it in a later patch if it sucks.

You make the assertion that this is a change that would severely balance the game. Would it though? Can't know without trying!

Also, wouldn't this type of addon alter the game state and make unlocking things not count?

 

[Tracker_TD]

You make the assertion that this is a change that would severely balance the game. Would it though? Can't know without trying!

A few pages back, someone (I think Togen) actually *did* make an addon to do this, and found that it introduced severe issues due to how items are balanced, particularly for front-runners. It's more complicated than that, but basically there's more thought that would need to go into it than just "add the button and never think about it again" - and I'd personally rather see that dev time put towards ironing out issues with the game as it is, than experimenting with completely changing it.

Making a change as big and fundamental as that, just to potentially revert it later, doesn't make sense. It feels firmly in the realm of modding. I'm not if mods actually do prevent unlocks here, either - I thought that was just using certain passwords, but I'm not too sure.

 

[Sonic Shadow]

A few pages back, someone (I think Togen) actually *did* make an addon to do this, and found that it introduced severe issues due to how items are balanced, particularly for front-runners. It's more complicated than that, but basically there's more thought that would need to go into it than just "add the button and never think about it again" - and I'd personally rather see that dev time put towards ironing out issues with the game as it is, than experimenting with completely changing it.

Making a change as big and fundamental as that, just to potentially revert it later, doesn't make sense. It feels firmly in the realm of modding. I'm not if mods actually do prevent unlocks here, either - I thought that was just using certain passwords, but I'm not too sure.

Yeah, I do realize I was half-thinking this through. A button to immediately discard items is more in line with what I want. I really hate the delay in having to waste your item to be able to use rings, it's distracting enough to ruin your run.

 

[casual koopa]

I'd like some way to set an "alternate" character and follower on your profile. Specifically, a "basegame" version. I always use a custom character and follower in my own games, but naturally those aren't loaded when I launch the game. (I have heard there are ways to launch the game with mods already active, but I like playing online, so I wouldn't want to Always load mods the instant the game is open). Because of this, my profile always looks empty and with the wrong color when I boot up the game, and it always defaults to Eggman.
I don't mind having to back out to change to my modded character and follower after I've loaded them - I don't really see a way you could avoid that, anyways. I just wish I didn't default to Red Eggman No Follower specifically.
I recognize that this is a very minor gripe, but I don't think it would be much to ask to fix. It would particularly help with online games, in the event you need to quickly ready up before the next game starts. This would also tie in nicely to my previously mentioned suggestions: in general, I think the player should have options to set "basegame" defaults when modded ones are unavailable. I would also prefer my profile not look empty and incorrectly-colored every time I start the game.
As for How you would do this: I understand the argument against the kind of suggestions I'm making is that it would be unintuitive for the playerbase. To that end, I would suggest only making it happen if you're already choosing a modded character, or color, or follower. Just change the color of the selection icon and have a little message at the top of the screen that says "choose a fallback [selection] from the base roster!"

EDIT: Oh, and maybe this ship has sailed, but I think it's strange that the "wins" being tracked have no distinction between online and offline, between CPUs and human opponents. I would find it hard to brag about wincount when the optimal way to increase it is to set CPU level to 1 and run circles around pico park or something. As it stands, it's basically a measure of playtime; which is cool, actually, it's just not Presented as such. I'm not even saying to remove it, but just to add some sort of standardized challenge alongside it. Like how many medals you have, or something. Would be nice, I think

 

[noodlegum]

SMALL ADDITION SUGGESTION FOR ONLINE!

a cute little addition would be to be able to add the rival tag on online race for players!
i know in TF2 you can challenge players to duels and announce it. it'd be funny if u could do the same but for rivalling other players cards given how competitive the game is!

(it also scratches the fgc itch that this game is giving imo)

 

[crystallinegazer]

i have come with another stupid ass suggestion. spoilers for characters that.. arent unlockable i suppose?

Spoiler: teehee

i have heard that some devs are touhou fans... and im kind of surprised that there aren't any unlockable touhou chars. it does seem like most characters are sega chars so i guess it makes sense but if not it'd be neat to have reimu in the base game at least

 

[Steelie]

If I can reiterate on the conversation above, I don't think the game is really bloated in mechanics as most people who criticized it do. You can have depth in simplicity, but also in complex mechanics. It generally goes down to how you use them.

To go with yet another inevitable Mario Kart comparison, that game has a lot of tech that I imagine not many people are aware of. You can choose to learn it and try to squeeze additional seconds in your races, but you can also take safe and easy lines, play smart or conservatively and often you'll do just as well. It entirely depends on play style and Ring Racers is no different.

Is this how it actually is? If that's true, I don't understand why that would be the case. It makes perfect sense to have the CPUs step up their game if you win races against them, but taking down prisons has nothing to do with races in general, so why would they increment the difficulty? It explains why the AI difficulty spike feels overtuned by the the 3rd race - they jump in difficulty twice!

Can a dev clear this up, please? This genuinely doesn't sound intentional.

On the other hand, it feels extremely disheartening to see the dev reaction to the CPU difficulty in particular, as I think that's the sole area where the game falls short. The general consensus I've noticed, whether it's on Discord, in streamer chats or online, is that:

• the game is an absolute blast to play online, whether it's with randos or friends
• GPs are a nightmare and aside from a relatively small minority who learned to counter the CPUs and enjoy the challenge, people don't really touch it after unlocking whatever they wanted and starting playing online

Which is disappointing, to say the least, when singleplayer has been this game's major selling point since its conception. And whenever I asked devs, the typical answer was "we like it where it is" or "we're not interested in adding another difficulty".

And I seriously implore you to reconsider. At the end of the day, it's the singleplayer modes that are supposed to ease players to the game. I learned and got good at Mario Kart 8 Deluxe because I played with relatively easy CPUs on 100cc and then on 150cc, not by getting trashed every single race by playing against 10-20k VR full-Japanese worldwide lobbies. There's a point where challenge just becomes demotivating. Why do I have to play for 20+ hours just to get good enough to beat some bots and unlock stuff, which is time I don't have and effort that doesn't feel worth spending? At that point it's easier to just grind chao keys, use passwords or get a 100% savefile and only focus on online. But then what's the point of having a singleplayer mode?

So, please either tone down the Intense difficulty or introduce an intermediate between Relaxed and Intense. Making the game more accessible is not going to lower its integrity whatsoever - I really don't understand where this bizarre opinion came from. Vicious and Master are right there.

Also on that note, I'd like to say a few things about the Relaxed difficulty, which is a band-aid solution for the newbies and casual players.

You can't reach sealed stars with it, which I assume is because you wouldn't even be able to beat them on Gear 1. It breaks multiple maps, particularly those with large jumps for which you need higher speed (Gust Planet says hi) or maps with crushers which don't slow down to accommodate the players' speed (MEGA Scrap Brain is an extreme example). And even on maps that are okay, it's just plain not fun. It's the other extreme where instead of the game being violent, it's sluggish and the bots hardly fight back. The best metaphor I can think of is that Relaxed has your dad hold you on a leash while you're riding your bike in circles around the house, while Intense just straight up drops you into rush hour traffic. The game fails to strike that balance.

That's all I wanted to say, I realize it's a bit lengthy and I don't mean to be rude to the devs in any way. In fact I apologized to a couple about a week or so back because the tone I used before was significantly more hostile. It just feels sad to me that out of all things it's the singleplayer difficulty that KK seems to double down on so much, when online is arguably what reins the playerbase in anyway. I just don't think making singleplayer more accessible would ruin the game, y'know?

If you managed to read all this, you're a cool one

 

[evan_online]

I'm not the first person to say something about Chemical Facility and I won't be the last, but while I agree with the general consensus that the CPUs are impossibly good on that track, that very last set of bends before the end of the lap is crazy even in Time Attack where it's just me. I love the intense challenge provided by the rest of the course, it's just those final turns that feel unreasonable.

 

[Sonic Shadow]

Gear and difficulty should be detached. Honestly, maybe gears 1 and 2 should be removed entirely since the game is CLEARLY designed around gear 3 and slower speeds work much, much worse. Gear 1 breaks levels, gear 2 feels like a huge waste of time as your GP progress is reset for Vicious, which is immediately more fun than the nonsense you had to put with just to unlock it. Feels like a fuck you to the player. Like half of the things in the game.

 

[ThatAzazelFire]

it'd be nice if it was possible to expose the bots somewhat to lua (or similar) and be able to force skins, colors and names from a pool
So i could have it when you're playing as a specific "character" all the bots become a random one of the same "character" with a random name due to being a species rather than an individual.

i was wanting to personally have something like this in my Adven Chars pack for one of the characters, the Togito (and by extension Charlie)
so that when you play as the generic Togito or Charlie in Grand Prix, all the bots are other Togitos with random names and colors. (with the exception of Charlie when playing as the generic as he's the designated hater).

But i am honestly not sure if this is even possible sense it seems to be purely hard coded and that makes me sad. I also bet some map makers/cup makers would like to force certain bots if possible. Like a cup based on tracks from a certain other kart racer forcing bots to be characters native to said kart racer.

 

[toaster]

Honestly, maybe gears 1 and 2 should be removed entirely since the game is CLEARLY designed around gear 3

Minor aside, but this actually isn't true; Gear 2 was the focus of our attention and design.

Consider Gear 3 to be a "200cc" type challenge and Master to be a treat beyond that for super players; it's good that you enjoy it but we don't expect play to centralise around it.

 

[Sonic Shadow]

Minor aside, but this actually isn't true; Gear 2 was the focus of our attention and design.

Consider Gear 3 to be a "200cc" type challenge and Master to be a treat beyond that for super players; it's good that you enjoy it but we don't expect play to centralise around it.

Huh.

Maybe consider changing challenges with this in mind, the completionists who would try to unlock everything aren't necessarily people who would enjoy higher difficulties/speeds.

Chao keys don't solve this, due to the fact that it merely unlocks the tile instead of completing the challenge. People are gonna go insane trying to 100% challenges.

 

[D00D64]

If you're a completionist, isn't doing insane challenges part of the territory? I don't think any true completionist goes "Yeah, I'm a completionist, but only for things that are not actually hard." Chao Keys are a fine solution, allowing you to unlock items, but leaving their words gray so you can tell you haven't actually done them, and you still got bragging rights for what you actually managed to accomplish.

The entire point of the keys is to unlock things your way, weather it be the difficult way you can prove yourself with, or an easier solution from casually playing, completing and uncovering some challenges without really realizing it, and using the keys on the more difficult challenges you uncovered. It's also highly reminiscent of how most Smash Bros titles let you unlock most, if not all the characters and stages by hitting benchmark numbers of multiplayer matches, as the chao key system lets you unlock stuff even if all you do is play multiplayer, online or off.

I'm in full support of this type of system, and its still something you gotta work for no matter what your choice, no cheat codes required. After the patch that allowed you to use keys on big panels stuck next to other big panels, I think the system is perfectly fine as it is.

 

[Tracker_TD]

Yeah, my only hang-up with the unlock system is that the amount of GP-only challenges can still feel somewhat excessive sometimes. It's definitely less of an issue than it was (The Honey unlock drove me insane pre-patch), but given I still don't think GP is in a place where I want to play it much, I just find myself using Chao Keys a lot. Whereas I'd normally enjoy the process of beating specific challenges like this.