If Sega keeps going the way they are...
- Thread starter Ashovare
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Naoto Ohshima created Sonic. Naka was a programmer. There's also Yasuhara, who made level designs for the Genesis games that easily trump ANYTHING we see today.Ashura The Hedgehog said:
It's a common misconception, so don't feel bad or take it hard or anything.
Yasuhara jumped ship after Sonic R, I believe, and now works at Naughty Dog (he did work on Jak 2). Ohshima left after the first Adventure and went to work with Artoon, an entire team of ex-Sonic Team guys (he was behind Yoshi's Island DS). Go figure that Naka finally got off his butt and went to somewhere where he can get back to something he liked doing: programming.
Also, that was three sentences in the guise of one. Please use punctuation? Please?
TimberWolf
Official ***** Troll
You're comparing 2D levels to 3D levels, you fail at level comparison.Shadow Hog said:
BlazingPhoenix
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
Nice job posting more crap, how does that fail? He's actually right you know.TimberWolf said:
TimberWolf
Official ***** Troll
How can you compare levels where you only go left/right and up/down to another level where you can go in any direction you want? As well, the newer levels are meant to be more realistic and alot of them are city/town based, unlike the zones in S1-S3&K.KingofFlames said:
BlazingPhoenix
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
It's easy to compare them, most of the levels nowadays are "ZOMG BOTTOMLESS PIT!!!11 AVOID" when most of the old levels actually had more traps.
TimberWolf
Official ***** Troll
No, they have the same amount of traps. You have enemies and bottomless pits in both the old and the new games. Don't give me bullshit about there being no bottomless pits in the old games, I've seen them. I fell victem to them. They have the same things, it's just that the lebels are now (finally) more realistic and waaaaaaay better looking than the onlder ones.KingofFlames said:
TimberWolf
Official ***** Troll
Have you even bothered playing the new games? You can still do crazy things in realistic worlds.Sik said:
Alexmonk0
Member
TimberWolf said:
Thats the whole arguement, though. Sonic was never meant to be "realistic". Have you ever seen any of Oshima's orignal concept art for the first game? (I strongly suggest you take a look if you haven't, some very interesting stuff) It's completely messed up and zany, chequered landscapes, and some completely off the wall character designs. Hell, if Oshima was still in charge of character design, we'd probably be fighting some physchotic killer clown or something as a side villian rather than generic cliche villian #65645.
Can you really say you had more fun playing through a generic Post-apocolypitc city that plays itself for 3/4's of the level (that is, of course, assuming you don't fall through the floor) than any of the levels from the Mega Drive/Genesis games?
TimberWolf
Official ***** Troll
Yes:Alexmonk0 said:
1. 3D-ness instead 2D-ness=awsome
2. Sonic's alive right now BECAUSE they went more realistic. If Oshima was still in charge SEGA and ST would've died out before the Dreamcast
3. You don't fall through the floor, unless your some nOOb that can't use an analog stick properly
BlazingPhoenix
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
Just tell me how the hell they would've died out if he was in charge, when he was in charge, Sonic was doing great, now he just plain sucks. The levels in the original games were great, I don't like the levels in the newer games because they seem too repetitive.TimberWolf said:
Torgo
Member
1. I hope you don't think that just because a game is in 3d, that make the game automatically awesome or great.
2. I am fine with Sonic in a realistic world or whatever, just as long as its fun. I think Sonic is alive because a lot of people would buy it no matter what.
3. Yeah, but falling through the floor shouldn't happen in any instance, even if the player is a so called noob. Besides the SA games are meant for children. I think ideally a so called noob should be able to control it if a kid could, but that isn't the case.
2. I am fine with Sonic in a realistic world or whatever, just as long as its fun. I think Sonic is alive because a lot of people would buy it no matter what.
3. Yeah, but falling through the floor shouldn't happen in any instance, even if the player is a so called noob. Besides the SA games are meant for children. I think ideally a so called noob should be able to control it if a kid could, but that isn't the case.
Maou-Shin Daioka
Member
TimberWolf said:
1. Do you have any proof of this? Have you even played the classic games? If you say yes, you're obviously lying, for the fact you agree with Sonic Teams's new methods of making Sonic games.
2. Sonic is dying, he's not gonna make it like this. But the only reason he's not dead yet is because stupid, blind fanboys keep buying his games, regardless if they suck or not. Sonic does extremely well in 2-D, you're too stupid to realize this plain fact.
3. Funny you can call other people who fall off of platforms in Sonic games noobs, but do you even know the real reason why? Due to glitches in most recent Sonic games, bad level design and more bugs. That should be the only reason they fall through/off platforms...
Why do you post on information that you haven't even researched, or experienced? You defend something that is pretty obvious: The new Sonic games suck. If you disagree, why?
And I want real answers, not your own, personal opinions, like you have been giving since this topic started.
RgxSuperSonic
Member
Personally, I think Sonic's fandom is not as strong as it was in the 90s. The truth is, Sonic is already a video game legend. He will never die and he will continue his series as well as Mario is continuing his. The thing I really wonder is, what if Sonic team got rid of the bugs, long loading times, camera problems and glitches. What would you guys think about it now? The sad truth is that people always look to the negative side of Sonic and never the positive. I bet if all these causes were done with, people would still complain. I could complain for alot of things for other game series, but I don't. What I always say; "People just can't appreciate the little things in life".
TimberWolf
Official ***** Troll
Nuh-uh. WAY wrong there:Torgo said:
SA1/SADX: Chaos flooded Station Square, so it's obvious people died, plus there's Tikal and her backstory.
SA2/SA2B: Prison Island explodes, the ARK incident, the Big Foot and Hot Shot pilots died, Shadows not-really-dead "death" at the end of SA2/SA2B
How're THOSE meant for children?
And if you hate Sonic so much, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL GOING TO SONIC FORUMS!?
If Sonic hadn't fucking evolved in alot of aspects and stayed with the Genesis-style shit, there would be no Dreamcast.
Maou-Shin Daioka
Member
RgxSuperSonic said:
We have negative views because these flaws in recent Sonic games are too obvious to ignore, even if we try to have a posotive mind.
Sonic Team needs to get their act together.
And yes, people will always complain about little things, if you don't like it, ignore it.
Blitzzo
It's Mr. Computer!
RgxSuperSonic, If you get rid of the bugs and add more polish to the game, it's still not going to fix the problems deep down inside... linearity, bottomless pits, the uselessness of loops, etc. are all part of the core design, and such problems wouldn't be fixed without a radical redesign of the levels and gameplay mechanics. If the modern Sonic games had vast, open, explorable levels similar to SRB2 (along with slopes, ramps, loops, etc.) then I think they would be a lot more interesting to play. Unfortunately, Sonic Team doesn't seem to have improved a whole lot in terms of level design, so I fear that the games will continue down the path of mediocrity.
TimberWolf, both 2D and 3D have radically different design principles. On one hand, you have 2D, where you can move in two directions and jump. You can't simply run past the enemy, you have to engage it head-on. This restriction of the 2D plane helps keep gameplay balanced. However, 2D makes it much more difficult to look ahead, so if your character moves too fast, you won't be able to see any obstacles before you come in contact with them. The Genesis games limited character speed so that this wouldn't happen.
3D lets you see further ahead, which is a definite plus. It also removes the restriction of the movement plane. This unfortunately means that it is easy to avoid enemies and hard to hit them. Sonic Team had a good idea when they made the homing attack, so I'll give them props for that. However, the level design is done in such a way that it limits your freedom and ultimately causes frustration, what with all the deathpits.
The fact is, 2D helps regulate level design. Speed means zip if the gameplay isn't solid. The gameplay of recent Sonic titles is anything but solid. Sure, speed feels "cool" and all, but it is deceiving. It makes you lose sight of the big picture. The Genesis games had the correct formula. Loops served as speed barriers (can't cross unless you're fast enough), but in the modern games, Sega nullified this by adding speed pads before each loop, completely taking any challenge or novelty out and making them into nothing more than a cutscene. In 2D, you were restricted to a movement plane. In 3D, Sega tried to fix this by making the levels linear and path-like, but all this does is backfire on them.
The realistic factor of a game has absolutely nothing to do with core gameplay. I assume you're talking about 2K6's new graphics, no? That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is gameplay issues, and the modern games are full of them.
It is also apparent that you have never played Sonic Heroes on the PS2. My younger cousin, who owns the console, had received Sonic Heroes once as a gist. However, it was much too hard for her. Even the first level gave her trouble. What more, you really do fall through the floor when exiting a loop, the majority of the time. This has nothing to do with player skill, it is a glitch in the PS2 version due to it being a very poor port job (do not deny it, it will only make you look stupid). Heh, pretty soon I was back to playing the version of the game on my GCN.
The big problem with the Sonic fandom is that it's split into two subgroups: people that like the classics, and people that like the modern games. This is because the modern games use a radically different design principle, effectively dividing the fanbase. The issue with Sonic Team is that they want to keep fans of the modern series happy, so they continue to dish out mediocre games. Radically changing the game design would be something too risky for them to do. At least with series like Mario, Nintendo is able to keep all of their fans happy.
TimberWolf, both 2D and 3D have radically different design principles. On one hand, you have 2D, where you can move in two directions and jump. You can't simply run past the enemy, you have to engage it head-on. This restriction of the 2D plane helps keep gameplay balanced. However, 2D makes it much more difficult to look ahead, so if your character moves too fast, you won't be able to see any obstacles before you come in contact with them. The Genesis games limited character speed so that this wouldn't happen.
3D lets you see further ahead, which is a definite plus. It also removes the restriction of the movement plane. This unfortunately means that it is easy to avoid enemies and hard to hit them. Sonic Team had a good idea when they made the homing attack, so I'll give them props for that. However, the level design is done in such a way that it limits your freedom and ultimately causes frustration, what with all the deathpits.
The fact is, 2D helps regulate level design. Speed means zip if the gameplay isn't solid. The gameplay of recent Sonic titles is anything but solid. Sure, speed feels "cool" and all, but it is deceiving. It makes you lose sight of the big picture. The Genesis games had the correct formula. Loops served as speed barriers (can't cross unless you're fast enough), but in the modern games, Sega nullified this by adding speed pads before each loop, completely taking any challenge or novelty out and making them into nothing more than a cutscene. In 2D, you were restricted to a movement plane. In 3D, Sega tried to fix this by making the levels linear and path-like, but all this does is backfire on them.
The realistic factor of a game has absolutely nothing to do with core gameplay. I assume you're talking about 2K6's new graphics, no? That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is gameplay issues, and the modern games are full of them.
It is also apparent that you have never played Sonic Heroes on the PS2. My younger cousin, who owns the console, had received Sonic Heroes once as a gist. However, it was much too hard for her. Even the first level gave her trouble. What more, you really do fall through the floor when exiting a loop, the majority of the time. This has nothing to do with player skill, it is a glitch in the PS2 version due to it being a very poor port job (do not deny it, it will only make you look stupid). Heh, pretty soon I was back to playing the version of the game on my GCN.
The big problem with the Sonic fandom is that it's split into two subgroups: people that like the classics, and people that like the modern games. This is because the modern games use a radically different design principle, effectively dividing the fanbase. The issue with Sonic Team is that they want to keep fans of the modern series happy, so they continue to dish out mediocre games. Radically changing the game design would be something too risky for them to do. At least with series like Mario, Nintendo is able to keep all of their fans happy.
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