Kyasarin
Member
Whirlwind Shield.
Honestly, it sounds like you're just inventing more just to have them. Why would we even need anymore to add to SRB2's steep learning curve, and why do we need to add a bunch of gimmicky new powerups?
Elemental Shield vs. Water and Fire
- Thread starter Eliwood
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Honestly, it sounds like you're just inventing more just to have them. Why would we even need anymore to add to SRB2's steep learning curve, and why do we need to add a bunch of gimmicky new powerups?
Eliwood
Member
The Whirlwind shield is just a slight boost into the air. I said the shield would force you off against the wall, and if done against two walls, you could repeat the process, hence why I added this onto it.
"(And you would actually do a slight boost off the wall so that way you couldn't just keep constantly climbing the wall)"
Why would I mention anything about climbing a wall if you could -only- do it once.
Kyasarin
Member
Besides the point.
Why would we need something like this outside of stupid gimmicks? I can't think of a single way to use this that doesn't break things (staying on a single wall or going on several, which isn't hard as Sonic, and it lets Tails fly forever) or manage to be annoying.
Eliwood
Member
I should have mentioned this sooner, but you all say that learning srb2 is really difficult. Okay, I won't argue, the controls can be slightly hard to get at at first, seeing as I have a friend who finds it slightly difficult to control at times. But, I highly disagree with you about the difficulty of learning how to use a shield.
Seriously, the same friend could easily understand how a shield works.
"this yellow one attracts rings" - of course I can see the difficulty in learning that one.
"this red one explodes when pressing the spindash in mid air" - that takes some three year long pro srb2 player to figure that one out
"the blue one takes two hits and reflects projectiles back at enemies" - really hard
"this green one allows you to breathe underwater and leaves a fire trail" - this is the most difficult thing ever.
"this white one boosts you in the air when you press the spindash key" - this is the only one that I would think could be arguably difficult to learn at first.
But really, shields aren't that hard to learn.
Seriously, the same friend could easily understand how a shield works.
"this yellow one attracts rings" - of course I can see the difficulty in learning that one.
"this red one explodes when pressing the spindash in mid air" - that takes some three year long pro srb2 player to figure that one out
"the blue one takes two hits and reflects projectiles back at enemies" - really hard
"this green one allows you to breathe underwater and leaves a fire trail" - this is the most difficult thing ever.
"this white one boosts you in the air when you press the spindash key" - this is the only one that I would think could be arguably difficult to learn at first.
But really, shields aren't that hard to learn.
That still isn't a reason to add of those supposedly cool features you come up with which in reality are either game-breaking or useless. We don't need more shield abilities.
What we need and what we want are two different things. Ok if we are going for what we NEED then tell me why we need a shield that makes a fire trail? Answer: We don't it's something that someone thought of and we (whoever "we" is) WANTED it. But sadly the developers cannot please everyone.
Kyasarin
Member
Pointing out flaws with the old Shields won't help your case.
And the Elemental Shield's color is a placeholder.
You still haven't provided a reason to add new ones other than "They're cool".
Of course we don't NEED anything, the question is moreso if a feature is useful and benefits the game as a whole. The fire trail adds an interesting dimension to multiplayer games, and by combining it with elemental protection, it also serves a good purpose in single player stages. A "run on water" ability would do nothing but trivialize one zone and be useless in the rest of the game.
Eliwood
Member
Okay, first of all, I wasn't pointing out flaws with the shields, I was pointing out that learning to use the shields isn't as difficult as you say it does.
Also, you want a reason? I'll give you a reason.
Online multi player and single player. What's the reason? I'll give you one real quick for single player. New ways for platforming. There are many interesting ways that you can add onto a game in the stage that requires such a shield to preform said actions. Of course Tails could already get past something like that, but what about for Sonic and Knuckles? I do believe that with that shield alone, it can open new ways to create a stage in the srb2 universe with a new certain style of platforming (and I mean platforming, not flying). You want one for Match? It makes for the player a good get away. Let's say that you're in the match, and all of a sudden, you're about to get corned. Well, you definitely need to get out of there, and none of the shields are really going to help you escape from there at all. Well, with that shield in hand, you can easily make your escape from taking damage from the other player. And like any shield you choose, there's going to be it's downsides to keep it from becoming too powerful. Like for instance, when you do the wall kick, you'll have a lack of movement when you do it, so you couldn't easily move left or right right after you make the move (similar to when you do a spindash).
You should never force a player to use a shield to continue. Not only does it break Coop, it traps you when you lose it.
Sounds very similar to what you would do with a Whirlwind Shield, only that you could abuse this one to reach ledges that you shouldn't.
Eliwood
Member
I'm not talking about forced paths, I'm talking about paths in the game that would require those things. Kind of like how in Sonic Adventure 2, there were some things that you could only get by using the "magic hands"
If they require you to use it, they force it, amirite?
Eliwood
Member
I meant more of an "optional path" kind of sense.
That might give you an alternate option if you fail, but you would still have no chance to clear the path once you lose the shield. Power-ups are power-ups, you should never be required to use one at any given time.
Eliwood
Member
I personally think that power-up items that have an ability like that would be a nifty idea though regardless.
We have now reached the point where you say "I like it anyway". In other words, you have no reason why such a power-up would be a good idea.
Kyasarin
Member
You don't seen the understand the difference between powerups and gimmicks.
Forcing a player to use a powerup to pass through a barrier or something stupid like that is just a cheap gimmick.
PHCC
Too fast for you to see me.
I don't see any difference in this custom shield to the whirlwind.Changing the subject, the water run ability is only a demonstration of a very fast run. Now, I can understand why this ability was removed, run on water with a slow velocity don't make any sense, so.... I gave up of the run on water ability in the game.
Use a shield as a part of a gimmick don't looks good, because the player can lose it. But anyway, add a shield isn't bad, just guess an useful shield that all players(or almost all) would like. An other thing is: all shields have a defect, like:
*Atraction disapears when you touch the water.
*Force doesn't reflect all type of rings.
*Armageddom can be exploded by other player that hit you, and it doesn't cover an entire area, so, a player a bit far from you won't be affected.
*Whirlwind is very powerful on single player, but in multiplayer it only serves to run away from a player, and in some situations, the player can't run away with this shield.
*The elemental doesn't protect you from electrical damages, like the lasers.
My point is: you don't have to refuse a shield because of one imperfection (I'm not defending the eliwood's shield), if a shield is useful in the two basic gametypes(singleplayer and match), at least in a few situations, so, this is already an acceptable shield.
Use a shield as a part of a gimmick don't looks good, because the player can lose it. But anyway, add a shield isn't bad, just guess an useful shield that all players(or almost all) would like. An other thing is: all shields have a defect, like:
*Atraction disapears when you touch the water.
*Force doesn't reflect all type of rings.
*Armageddom can be exploded by other player that hit you, and it doesn't cover an entire area, so, a player a bit far from you won't be affected.
*Whirlwind is very powerful on single player, but in multiplayer it only serves to run away from a player, and in some situations, the player can't run away with this shield.
*The elemental doesn't protect you from electrical damages, like the lasers.
My point is: you don't have to refuse a shield because of one imperfection (I'm not defending the eliwood's shield), if a shield is useful in the two basic gametypes(singleplayer and match), at least in a few situations, so, this is already an acceptable shield.
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Our shields, while interesting, aren't all that complicated on their own. The issue is that we don't have just one part of our game causing a learning curve. A new player to our single player needs to learn the following things:
1. How the game's rules work. (Rings protect you from being hit, etc. etc.)
2. How to control the game.
3. How the controls interact with the game's mechanics, such as how rolling lets you get in small gaps, and other similar parts of how the game operates.
4. How to use the various powerups and items, such as shields, invincibility, special stage tokens, etc.
For multiplayer, there are the following additional things to learn:
5. What each weapon does and how it feels to fire each of them.
6. Judging the relative speed of your shot against the target player's speed.
SRB2 is a game of medium complexity at the core, but we have a lot of complicated mechanics on top of it that provide gameplay variety, and these kinds of mechanics take time to learn. New players shouldn't feel overwhelmed by all the mechanics at the start, so there is a limit to how much complexity can be pushed into the core parts of the game. Our basic jumping, spinning, ability use, powerups, weapons, and other core mechanics are simple on their OWN, but combined it forms something very complicated. We also tend to add stuff as time goes on, which continues to increase the complexity of the game. We don't want the player to feel overwhelmed looking at the variety of shields or weapons, but we also want enough variety to keep things interesting. It's extremely important to take a hard look at any potential additions to make sure what they add is worth the added complexity it brings with it.
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