Character System Ruined by STK?

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Senku Niola

Drifting Golden Swordsman
You would have guessed eventually I'd make a topic like this even though I've argued thousands of times about this issue sorta. Anyways onto the point, from thinking over about how the current character system is, all the official characters overpower any custom characters pretty easily. All three characters use pretty much the highest stats of speed, and jump, accel is somewhat ranged (but accel is unliked when slow anyways :/), and all three have a the same speed spindash.


Now that's characters all shown together, lets check singularity.

Sonic: max speed somewhat medium accel (for some reason it feels fast though), thok that gives you fastest speed (sure you lose some control I guess), and a normal jump and spindash, oh and is the only one who can go super (singleplayer and coop).

Next is Tails: Flying (with maxed actionspd, you can't outdue him, but you can make your flying worse than his which is pretty much useless from what I've tested), still fast speed (not as fast as Sonic but he's pretty close), maxed accel (I mean MAXED acceleration maxed, accelstart maxed, thurstfactor maxed, you see my point here), and normal jump and spindash.

Lastly Knuckles: Glide and climb (he's got an ok glide), faster than Tails speed but slower than Sonic (still pushing it) jump is gimped and spindash is still the same, though he gets his random fire rate buff and all to make up for jump.


Now my question to you is, where do the custom characters fit in without being clones? If you want speed to be different the character will be hated cause it's slower than the others. Jump height you can't even change to be higher than normal characters UNLESS you pick double jump slow fall and super float (and then you still can't even edit double jump's second height to be something custom cause actionspd doesn't effect it either way). Spindash, sure you could give the player a slower spindash but there's no real point to a slow spindash at times, along with the fact you can no longer have fun little ideas of making maxdash lower than your mindash for kicks. Acceleration, already explained this, you want slow accel the character will be useless in water and it just doesn't work right at times, so medium and fast accel is pretty much stuck. And then we have abilities which quite a few of them fail for reasons, super float/slowfall: (forced jump frames), swim: 2 frames? are you kidding me there (also run on water combined with this is horrible specially with the fact of how buggy swim is being about to pop out of water), doublejump: already mentioned the actionspd, thok: oh hai you should have a fast thok else it's pretty much usless :D, fly: already mentioned it, actionspd again, glide/climb: dunno what to say here, other than just make seperate abilities so that people have something different.

Well there's my daily/nightly rant thing, enjoy and stuff?

Comment if you wish.

I see you Mystic.~
 
If you mean that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are just better concepts than the other stuff in the custom character system, yeah, I'd say that's correct. 1.X wasn't any better in that regard. We already have plenty of topics for productive suggestions on how to improve the system, such as this: http://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=31158

Which leads to this Sky Sanctuary topic where I sat down and picked through and found the good ideas from it: http://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=31656

Obviously none of that stuff has been remotely implemented yet because it's just not very important right now. Hopefully we can try some of it for 2.1 but that's still a few months before we even start on that.

I don't see how this says anything we haven't already gone over before. You hate my idea of dependent variables which would let characters break the limits that you detest. You don't post any suggestions on ideas of character abilities, help filter ideas in the SS topic or suggest implementation strategies. All you do is complain.
 
You forget, that this sums up most of humanity as a whole, all they ever do is complain.

Fix'd *Shot*

But really Senku, all you do concerning characters is complain, and most of the ideas seem like one-shot character things that would only be fun for about a few minutes, like reverse spindashing/thoking. Who ELSE would do that? Seriously. 'Sides, it's better than having a bunch of one-note stupid characters that are OP like in 1.09. Remember,t his is a game about super fast animals with abnormal abilities; there's not a whole lot of room for the ordinary.
 
What can I say?

I have to agree with the topicmaker here. (Forgot the name quickly, my memory sucks) Making characters is just nerfed and not fun anymore. It doesn't surprise me that not many characters are being made (I looked after 2 months into the section again, nothing changed) because as good as everything good and custom is just...gone. It has to be all "official" and "full quality" now. Sure, I really am a quality whore, but cut me some slack. The whole community complains because they feel themselves limited on things...which shouldn't be the case. I know a fangame (Sonic Arena 2) which died off by the same reason as what is going on here right now. The creators and such won't listen to the people around them, because "they'll do things as they think it's right". I can understand it to SOME extend...but please.

(This may not be the right topic to talk about it, but I'm clueless)
I see myself and many friends going back to 1094, host a game there (off the MS) and play there because it's WAY MORE FUN. Which DOES include the characters.

I hate random overpowerd characters as much as you do. But you just can't FORCE quality. It's a kids game, damnit! Let them have their little creation. Tell them to improve on the sprites and such. But powers... it's their fault. If they want to go all out on the games limits, let them have it. YOU don't have to play it, right?

But ah well. I'll stop now. I'mma wait for the "constructive critism". Toodles~
 
It is not a kid's game, so your entire argument on that front is entirely void. Kid-friendly != kid-targeted. Do note that there are people working on this game that are over 20 who actually enjoy the game for what it is, not the supposed creativity it provides 10-year-olds. That is not the point of the game, do not ever assume that it is.

YOU don't have to play it, right?
Almost is
Don't download it if you don't like it
which makes pretty much the entire last post null.

As for the rest of this topic, I swear, Senku, get over it. This has been addressed a million times before and it's entirely sickening. We get it, you're not happy with the system. *****ing about it constantly is not going to get anything done. Do something more productive, like coming up with ideas that can work in the new system instead of whining how it restricts people.
 
You forget, that this sums up the community as a whole, all they ever do is complain.

You forget, this sums up the community as a whole, all they ever do is complain.
What what?? Are we seeing double? Are we seeing double?
Hey, uh, Cue, you posted the exact same thing twice in row!
Ok now, back on topic. I'm kind of in the middle about this one, Knuckles being my favorite.
 
I dunno why you keep complaining about it. Right now, yes, the character making is nerfed, but we are going to be adding and improving the ability system. It just takes time.
 
Why is it that the community is always for these ideas and the devs are always against?

What idea? Nothing was presented as an idea, just "BAW I DON'T LIKE THIS I WANT THE OLD WAY BACK DESPITE THE REASONING BEHIND THE NEW SYSTEM AND I REFUSE TO COME UP WITH WAYS TO MAKE THE NEW SYSTEM BETTER AND WILL PROCEED INSTEAD TO COMPLAIN UNTIL I GET MY OLD WAY BACK" which has been happening since the nerfs were first started on. It's not changing back, and the constant whining is just getting obnoxious.
 
And you only have the community to blame for the nerfs.
 
No, actually, I think that the nerfs are a good idea and are actually designed well. There's just a lack of variety as far as ability selections go, which can only be solved by people coming up with abilities instead of whining about the new system. The old system was horribly broken and this fixes that.
 
Mystic said:
I don't see how this says anything we haven't already gone over before. You hate my idea of dependent variables which would let characters break the limits that you detest. You don't post any suggestions on ideas of character abilities, help filter ideas in the SS topic or suggest implementation strategies. All you do is complain.
Do something more productive, like coming up with ideas that can work in the new system instead of whining how it restricts people.

That's the thing.. I would love to suggest more stuff but 90% of the time my ideas are rejected and filtering stuff out I probably wouldn't do very well.
 
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The whole problem is the reasoning behind the new system is flawed. It's designed to 'fix' a problem that was never really a problem in the first damn place.

I swear, I remember Mystic quite vividly stating that he didn't care about external WADs whatsoever. Then suddenly when it comes to characters he pulls a 180. Erm... what?
 
I dunno why you keep complaining about it. Right now, yes, the character making is nerfed, but we are going to be adding and improving the ability system. It just takes time.
Not to sound like a Jerk, but somehow I have a feeling that Valve will implement the Trade system in TF2 before this happens. Yes, what you said sounded like what Valve said about their random unlock system for TF2.
 
犬夜叉;650558 said:
The whole problem is the reasoning behind the new system is flawed. It's designed to 'fix' a problem that was never really a problem in the first damn place

Infinite options that can be used for ridiculous stuff that breaks 90% of SRB2 == problem. Old system was terrible, new system just needs features. If people want uber-cheat characters like that, perhaps an unlockable that allows an SMS-like uberpowered character in Single Player is needed, but otherwise, the system needed these limits.

And before someone makes a comment on level customization as a counter to my above statement, there is a massive difference between how level building and character building works, so drawing from similarities in customization doesn't work for them. The principles are entirely different. It's not equal playing ground.
 
That's the thing.. I would love to suggest more stuff but 90% of the time my ideas are rejected and filtering stuff out I probably wouldn't do very well.
Well, Senku, over the 7-8 years I've been with the project, about 90% of MY ideas have been rejected. Just ask AJ. He shot me down constantly. I'll also come forward and say that if he had taken me up on all of my suggestions SRB2 would have been a far worse game.

That doesn't mean that my suggestions didn't get through, and that I didn't make a difference. It just means that most of my ideas weren't really all that good, while a few of them actually were. You've gotta get it through your head that part of making a game on a team is that a lot of your personal ideas and things that you think are awesome are going to get shot down, and you need to realize that doesn't mean I'm rejecting you, it means I'm rejecting THAT idea. Instead of making 2-3 pet ideas and getting them shot down and taking it personally like you seem to, sit down and brainstorm 10-20 ideas and present them all. You have a far higher likelihood of coming up with a good idea with a lot of ideas than just 2-3.
 
Infinite options that can be used for ridiculous stuff that breaks 90% of SRB2 == problem.

Breaking system so it can't be used for ANYTHING = bigger problem.

Seriously, IMO, there should be NO restrictions on what you can do with custom characters. Sure, you'll get the occasional person who says "lol let's push stats up to 11" but at the same time you'll have people make all-new characters that play in an original, completely different manner from the norm.

And that's impossible with this current system, and from the looks of it, it will STILL be impossible after all the current 'ideas' get implemented.
 
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