2.3 Discussion

[RedLilyQueen]

I feel like the more critical takes are kind of weirdly aggressive, especially considering it's a WIP. There's way too much focus on the existence of slopes themselves and I think that's kind of clouding judgement. Honestly, the Sonic Utopia comparisons just strike me as bizarre. Where are you all seeing the 90-degree downward slopes, upwards launch ramps and haphazard level design?? Because as I see it, every bit of 2.2 GFZ1 has been adapted, if not expanded upon, just with a lot more mostly-slight slopes everywhere.

Even with the new physics, these slopes are hardly going to give the speed some people seem to think they will. The sharpest slope I can see is the first curve past the waterfall, and considering that not only do you have to go up it first, but it seems to end on a higher plane, it's certainly not going to blast you through the rest of the act or whatever the impression is. Frankly, you're a lot better off trying to compare SRB2 to the original classics, when it comes to 2.3 level design, especially Green Hill in the case of GFZ, I think. There are very few times where the original Green Hill throws a big slope to roll down at you, if more than, like... two. From what I can see, the GFZ1 remake is working under similar philosophy. Slopes are there, but they're not a big deal for the most part.

The way I see it, the biggest reason all these new slopes are being implemented is to help introduce the new physics to the player, get them used to how going up and down slopes feels. It's the first level, so it needs to help new players come to grips with all the controls as well as possible. I think the expansion of the force shield cave into a fuller water area accomplishes similar- it gives the player an early taste of the water physics in a relatively safe spot. That's probably the reason things are a little wider, too- more space to move in for a starter, and who knows, they could've modified Crawla's behavior in a way that makes a slightly wider area around them necessary.

And I do think remaking GFZ1- and the whole rest of the game- is necessary when considering that it'll be using different physics. Egg Rock feels out of place these days, could you imagine placing all the old acts into 2.3 with new zones made with the new physics in mind?? In the end, Sonic Team Jr. are a bunch of fans working on this game unpaid, so they can do what they want with it. If that's different from your personal vision, you should try your own hand at remaking GFZ1, I say.

 

[Ace Dragon]

On slopes themselves I think we have to be fair here if SRB2 is in fact meant to be based on the original Genesis trilogy.

Sonic even back then had many highly sloped, organic structures and terrain within its levels (with physics) that made it unique among the platformers of the 16-bit era. SRB2 for a long time could not easily translate the geometry of these classic stages (in a fully accurate way) into 3D because of the tooling that was available (even after the initial slope implementation), UDMF is now changing all that with its native sloping and native vertex objects, and therefore creates a lot more freedom in map making.

 

[Zeb]

Points like this is why the team should go ahead and make it a priority to finish the campaign instead of attempting to please everyone. The game's transition into being more of an engine for character-based platforming and modding with mechanics inspired by the Sonic games mean that people will inevitably post their own edits of the campaign on the message board later on (with their own version of the characters even if they want). This will be easier to do if all of the maps are already in place.

The campaign then becomes just the beginning of your SRB2 experience, the rest is provided by the community.

As someone who only discovered SRB2 circa 2022, and thus lacking in years of waiting for such things as "RVZ Act 2" or "Dark City"... my impression of SRB2 is that the campaign already feels mostly complete, in a sense. I know SRB2 was originally envisioned with more zones, but it was also envisioned with acts of a comically-small size in hindsight (just check out the videos SSNTails is putting out right now about the earliest versions of Greenflower). As the scope has grown, so has the size of each zone and the acts therein.

During my initial playthrough, the only point where it felt obvious that the game was "incomplete" was Red Volcano having only one act and no boss. On subsequent playthroughs, the somewhat antiquated design and visual style of Egg Rock became apparent, as did the somewhat patchwork-feel of Deep Sea Act 2. Knowing what we already know about 2.3, I would assume at least 2/3 of these will be addressed in that update.

After that, I would consider anything else a bonus, honestly. The campaign is already rather meaty to play through, and I think adding 5 more acts and 3 more bosses might actually risk making the campaign feel exhausting... at least to anyone trying to do the whole thing in one-go. I know some people prefer Sonic 2 over Sonic 3&K because the former can more easily be completed in a single sitting. (As for me, I have no problem with a massive campaign.)

So with that in mind, I think SRB2 is already rather close to the point of being "complete", and it seems likely that 2.3 will complete it. Of course, I still want to see Dark City and Grand Eggship, but I don't think that updating the existing zones is wasted development effort. As long as every update improves the game in some way, I don't really mind if they take another 10 years to add the "missing two zones".

I would imagine the perspective is a bit different for people who have been in the community for longer, though. If you've been waiting a decade (or two) to set your sights on Dark City, then yeah, I can understand being a bit frustrated when development effort is instead poured into the zone that's been there from the start.

(All that said... I think it's worth noting that if the devs *were* working on Dark City or Grand Eggship, they might actually want to keep that secret for the sake of surprising players. Remember how the updated Red Volcano Zone in 2.2 was kept secret until release day? I fully expect them to pull *something* like that again.)

it seems like your overestimating how many downwards slope that actually give speed instead of support the level structure, i have a challenge for you

go and count how many downwards slope are in each of these screenshots to actually support your point

Ironically, the first noticeable slope is more likely to slow down the novice player, if they haven't gained a handle on controlling Sonic, while experienced players might be able to use it for either a fun speed boost, or else a potentially clever spindash jump to a higher section (although without access to the level, it's difficult to determine just what kind of tricks are possible). Like I said before, that particular section appears surprisingly clever, if you really analyze it.

Maybe none of that was intentional on the part of the level designer, but even if that's the case, it's pretty interesting that simply having a single prominent slope like that can suddenly introduce all this added potential interactivity, in contrast to the flat ground that occupied that space before.

Yeah, exactly, the tunnels been there for us to find the first appearance of the double shield (with the addition of a crawla and spikes over the monitor); taking the double shield cave away just means removing an initial piece of the map and what history was left of the original Greenflower.

Do we even know that the cave is gone? The camera angles make it difficult to tell how high up that new water section is, but it looks rather high up in the screenshot with Fang... high enough to be inaccessible from the ground level, and high enough to hide some stuff below.

This is entirely speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if you access the new water section by entering a cave entrance hidden behind its waterfall, leading to a spring or something that take you to the water pool above.

Alternatively, perhaps you're supposed to run and roll up the side of the wall next to the pool. That starting valley is surprisingly steep, the more I look at it, so perhaps it functions as a sort of large half-pipe.

Perhaps both would work... I do like when level design supports multiple different ways to approach the same challenge, especially when the two different ways are as mechanically distinct as slope physics usage versus attentive secret-hunting.

...as I'm saying all this, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I could be a level designer.

 

[RedLilyQueen]

Do we even know that the cave is gone? The camera angles make it difficult to tell how high up that new water section is, but it looks rather high up in the screenshot with Fang... high enough to be inaccessible from the ground level, and high enough to hide some stuff below.

This is entirely speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if you access the new water section by entering a cave entrance hidden behind its waterfall, leading to a spring or something that take you to the water pool above.

Alternatively, perhaps you're supposed to run and roll up the side of the wall next to the pool. That starting valley is surprisingly steep, the more I look at it, so perhaps it functions as a sort of large half-pipe.

Perhaps both would work... I do like when level design supports multiple different ways to approach the same challenge, especially when the two different ways are as mechanically distinct as slope physics usage versus attentive secret-hunting.

I thought it was pretty clear from the middle two screenshots that that early water area itself is connected directly to the river's end. That's where the original cave with the force shield was, after all.

As an aside, the hills bisecting most of the water area from the starting straightaway seem to end up leading to a new alternate route, implied by a couple rings you can see at the top of the first screenshot.

 

[Vincent The Rabbear]

Y'know, as far as I could see it, maybe my opinions were kind of, if not jerky; if I need to quit the bullshit on my own words, the design of the remake looks cool, and it would probably make for a good beginner for the standpoint of velocity, and as far as I could see, as long as nothing is too large, the parts where there's space could work; besides that, I'm not exactly sure how the cave would be implemented into this.

Do we even know that the cave is gone? The camera angles make it difficult to tell how high up that new water section is, but it looks rather high up in the screenshot with Fang... high enough to be inaccessible from the ground level, and high enough to hide some stuff below.

Well, what about the image with Sonic, where we see him on one pillar? In terms, we see slightly more of the lake, and it's a possibility that the cave wouldn't be there.

This is entirely speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if you access the new water section by entering a cave entrance hidden behind its waterfall, leading to a spring or something that take you to the water pool above.

Well, possibly there could be nothing much behind the waterfall like how it was before, but I guess that could be a good alternative, as long as we get to find that double shield in there, or if we could find that in the lake... besides the other post saying of how the visibility of the water would make it hard to see the monitor under the water.

Alternatively, perhaps you're supposed to run and roll up the side of the wall next to the pool. That starting valley is surprisingly steep, the more I look at it, so perhaps it functions as a sort of large half-pipe.

It's not entirely possible if the wall would even have anything on it, besides it being just a large wall.

Perhaps both would work... I do like when level design supports multiple different ways to approach the same challenge, especially when the two different ways are as mechanically distinct as slope physics usage versus attentive secret-hunting.

I could agree fully with you, multiple approaches to a challenge is a very creative and interesting way to do mechanics in a game, and especially different pathways being used to make a highly different run could be a very attentive thing in a game, but I'm still not sure what exactly could be the best alternative to the cave besides those two suggestions...

 

[Sls64LGamingBro]

Well I know that this is also gonna be a remake of techno hill zone. Also it might be blurry because of how the gif is 120px.

Spoiler: GIF

 

[Vincent The Rabbear]

Well I know that this is also gonna be a remake of techno hill zone. Also it might be blurry because of how the gif is 120px.

Spoiler: GIF

View attachment 109378

Oh yeah, I saw that one too.

 

[glaber]

I hate to have to say this, but if this is going to be our new GFZ1, and I rather it not, then because of how decisive it's becoming I think we need a hands on experience before it becomes finalized.

as it is now I'm seeing just slopes and open death barriers for the sake of it.

 

[RedSRB2]

as it is now I'm seeing just slopes and open death barriers for the sake of it.

I mean, these were in the classic Genesis trillogy, which is what SRB2 was always inspired on, so i guess it is for that authencity sake.

 

[Scizor300]

Ultimately I'm not a big fan of the lack of barriers around the map, but invisible walls in general are a massive pet peeve of mine in games like this. THZ1's current incarnation feels like the best of both worlds, with a clear boundary that's also walkable in these outdoor areas.

I'm also not a fan of revisiting the first zone a third time for another complete makeover. UDMF is tempting, I know, but let's not take our eye off the prize of bringing the entire game experience together (RVZ2, new ERZ). The game's always had a high pedigree for being such a feature rich 3D fangames, it would be a shame to slam on the pause button so close to the finish line.

 

[RedSRB2]

Let's not take our eye off the prize of bringing the entire game experience together (RVZ2, new ERZ).

From what I know, these are still in development. GFZ1 shows that they're doing more than finally bringing back RVZ2. All of these level remakes are being developed back-by-back, and i may not be on Discord, but I believe in what i said. Devs need time more than ever now. 2.3 is and WILL remain highly anticipated, and is a similliar situation like pre-2.2.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

Its not like they aren't going to do other things, They just want to remake older zones in a new style due to momentum, hell even the new zones are going to be in this style so what's the problem here? Its taking too long? Waiting isn't that hard you know

 

[time gear]

let's not take our eye off the prize of bringing the entire game experience together (RVZ2, new ERZ). The game's always had a high pedigree for being such a feature rich 3D fangames, it would be a shame to slam on the pause button so close to the finish line.

While I can sympathize with this feeling, we as the community are lacking a critical piece of information which is STJr's side of the story. We don't know that this overhaul is being handled in such a way as to take time away from the development of other stages, or even what their thought process is regarding why they are going ahead with it to begin with. I'd caution against criticizing them too harshly regarding the fact the overhaul exists until such information is brought more into the light.

As for the screenshots themselves, I don't really know what to think at the moment. The slopes are undoubtedly included specifically to take advantage of the new physics, and while I have played an old test build of the new physics I do not know how they might have changed since then and I also did not have access to a stage that looked similar to this in regards to slopes. This makes predicting how the stage actually plays rather difficult, and so I am left only being able to say that the stage at least looks visually more Sonic-like than older versions of it did. I'd like to hear some developer thoughts on why they handled it the way they did, but I don't expect that to happen any time soon so I'll just stick to being cautiously optimistic that they probably know what they are doing and are undergoing the proper process to ensure that this is a genuine improvement over the pre-existing design in a practical sense.

 

[RedSRB2]

Its not like they aren't going to do other things, They just want to remake older zones in a new style due to momentum, hell even the new zones are going to be in this style so what's the problem here? Its taking too long? Waiting isn't that hard you know

Were you saying that to me or?

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

Were you saying that to me or?

Was replying to "Scizor3000", my bad

​

 

[RedSRB2]

Was replying to "Scizor3000", my bad

Nah, it's fine. Though you should be aware that you must use the Quote button.

 

[Ace Dragon]

Ultimately I'm not a big fan of the lack of barriers around the map, but invisible walls in general are a massive pet peeve of mine in games like this. THZ1's current incarnation feels like the best of both worlds, with a clear boundary that's also walkable in these outdoor areas.

What might have been a long term goal in the development of the SRB2 engine is to get to where things are optimized and robust enough that they can really chip away at the 'canyon' look that defines a lot of content made in the original Doom engine. The open look then would represent just how much transformation has been done from what was Doom. As a SRB2 mapper myself, it is a unique challenge to balance performance needs with the want to avoid the typical Doom map design tropes.

In that case, invisible walls will be inevitable if death pits are to not be presented as a major hazard until Castle Eggman, but there are ways to clearly mark what is off limits through different textures and starting with 2.2.14 scaled textures.

That said, it was mentioned that the open Greenflower design is an experiment and not set in stone, only the official devs. can tell us more.

 

[Scizor300]

While I can sympathize with this feeling, we as the community are lacking a critical piece of information which is STJr's side of the story. We don't know that this overhaul is being handled in such a way as to take time away from the development of other stages, or even what their thought process is regarding why they are going ahead with it to begin with. I'd caution against criticizing them too harshly regarding the fact the overhaul exists until such information is brought more into the light.

It's really hard to comment on any indev content, as it's usually posted on Discord with no regard to putting together an organized post on the website or other social media. By 2018, we already had a decent look at what was coming in 2.2 thanks to the website updates and the 20th anniversary trailer.

Its not like they aren't going to do other things, They just want to remake older zones in a new style due to momentum, hell even the new zones are going to be in this style so what's the problem here? Its taking too long? Waiting isn't that hard you know

It's more the priority of releases and how it's being shown. The game is now five years into it's next significant content update (completely par for the course as 2.0>2.1>2.2 was the same timeframe), and the most people will know about whats coming is confined to a much less public resource than the website and other areas. It's not hard to wait, but it's not hard to expect the people in charge to deliver or keep the playerbase informed.

There's nothing wrong with chunking up content releases in the event of scope creep or a hard slump in development.

 

[SP Moves Enjoyer]

It's more the priority of releases and how it's being shown. The game is now five years into it's next significant content update (completely par for the course as 2.0>2.1>2.2 was the same timeframe), and the most people will know about whats coming is confined to a much less public resource than the website and other areas. It's not hard to wait, but it's not hard to expect the people in charge to deliver or keep the playerbase informed.

There's nothing wrong with chunking up content releases in the event of scope creep or a hard slump in development.

I do agree, this is mainly a communication issue. They didn't even post about the GFZ changes on the forums at all, the place most used for discussion like this

 

[time gear]

It's really hard to comment on any indev content, as it's usually posted on Discord with no regard to putting together an organized post on the website or other social media. By 2018, we already had a decent look at what was coming in 2.2 thanks to the website updates and the 20th anniversary trailer.

It's not hard to wait, but it's not hard to expect the people in charge to deliver or keep the playerbase informed.

While I'm always in favor of transparency, I don't think we as the community are outright entitled to know what's coming in future versions or when either. Ultimately, it is still STJr's game being developed in their vision and style and at their own pace for their own reasons. I'd also prefer to be kept in the loop somewhat and criticism is one of the most valuable tools for any developer to make use of, but I still feel like STJr are well within their right to disclose or not disclose as much information about the game to us as they see fit.