2.3 Discussion

MobyKong

DO NOT ACQUIRE POSSESION OF A BOVINE ANIMAL
I guess I will have to join the discord then and try to dig up whatever stuff relating to what you said
EDIT: Though I have seen this from taking a look at the climbdash LUA a while ago which relates to your comment of Sonic's new ability being a swiss army knife that has a wallclimb among other things:
1650791462255.png
 
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wkwrd

Member
To summarise my thoughts on 2.3: I worry that 2.3 will end up overdesigned.

Firstly, Sonic's ability: Sonic's new ability looks like something of a swiss-army knife, being a wallclimb, dropdash, and water-skip all in one. Putting aside that water skipping is already an ability inherent to anyone who can spin, and the dropdash just doesn't work as well in SRB2 as it does in Mania due to the relative scarcity of slopes in SRB2's level design, this new ability completely loses the beautiful simplicity that the thok has. Despite little depth being intentionally put into its design, it provides a wide range of creative and skillful movement options, such as momentum redirection and assistance when badnik bouncing, thanks to its simple design. Providing a range of abilities may actually reduce the player's freedom with the move, despite what one would assume, as since more mobility options are being provided the player is essentially being told to pick one out of what they're given rather than invent their own.

Secondly, the physics: I personally really love that SRB2 hasn't submitted to the Mania hype and gone with Utopia-esque wallrunning and the such. It gives the game a strong character that sets it apart from the rest, and I'm confident that this uniqueness has had a big hand in the game's rising popularity. Adding stronger momentum physics and wallrunning would completely destroy that, making it just another generic 3D Classic sonic fangame. Sure, it'll still have the novelty of being made in Doom, but that's what'll make players play it once, not what'll make them keep on playing. The accel-mom branch does nothing to quell my worries. It's just... not fun to play with. It feels like I'm dragging a hedgehog-shaped stone around by a rope. If it were up to me, all I would do is fix the momentum cut while not spinning, maybe make water-running a global ability and leave it at that.

Many users in the community have echoed these opinions, even in this thread. I hope STJr take note of this and at least do something to show that they know what they're doing and aren't just running wild with creative freedom now that the old guard are gone.
There's a Q&A Document floating around on discord server that answers many of your concerns regarding the 2.3 physics change:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-qbkyY8HKS6NPlH9ZK3aQ_4PVuqVdOqXMKeRUhr9SkE/
 

glaber

Emblem Radar Ready
I'm still not convinced that the scrunk is the right direction to go even with providing the images for that doc.

something like that needs to be publicly tested just like how we have the physics change exe and how we got a public test build for the 2.0 era ring slinger system. It's a major change.

Keep holding it back from us and of course we're going to speak out against it because we don't have any way to experience it ourselves outside of similar abilities that don't match up.
 

AtomicRing

Professional Consumer of Hedgehog Goulash
I'm just hoping 2.2 mods won't have such difficulty working on 2.3, I wasn't around for 2.1 to 2.2, but I know some 2.1 mods don't work for 2,2.
 

MobyKong

DO NOT ACQUIRE POSSESION OF A BOVINE ANIMAL
There's a Q&A Document floating around on discord server that answers many of your concerns regarding the 2.3 physics change:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-qbkyY8HKS6NPlH9ZK3aQ_4PVuqVdOqXMKeRUhr9SkE/
Who knew that Woolie would be a part of why the physics engine would change? The Woolie Hole continues to expand.
I also get the impression that SRB2's 2.3 is like what SRB2Kart's V2 in a sense, radical changes that are fairly controversial despite both versions not being released yet. In a weird way I feel like sonic loses a bit of identity with the thok gone.
I'm still not convinced that the scrunk is the right direction to go even with providing the images for that doc.

something like that needs to be publicly tested just like how we have the physics change exe and how we got a public test build for the 2.0 era ring slinger system. It's a major change.

Keep holding it back from us and of course we're going to speak out against it because we don't have any way to experience it ourselves outside of similar abilities that don't match up.
Don't think we are going to get one until it releases.
 

PencilVoid

Circuit Enthusiast
There's a Q&A Document floating around on discord server that answers many of your concerns regarding the 2.3 physics change:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-qbkyY8HKS6NPlH9ZK3aQ_4PVuqVdOqXMKeRUhr9SkE/
This document answers none of the concerns presented. While I described the thok's simplicity as a positive, increasing its flexibility and allowing players to pull off stylish stunts with creativity, the writer frames the simplicity as a negative, simply stating that the thok is unrewarding. The same could be said about any of the other abilities: Flying just moves you up. Where's the reward in that? Additionally:
There is more to this ability than was shown in the gif
This is literally the problem I was describing. There's too much to it already. There should be less to it.

While it does briefly explain why the physics are changed, providing one example of a player who had a bad time with the current physics, it doesn't really explain how the changed physics are better. If anything, accel-mom feels harder to control than 2.2.x's current physics thanks to the acceleration changes. Also, it doesn't address wallrunning, which I mentioned in my post.

This document overall seems to be just a compendium of the writer's negative opinions about SRB2's current gameplay. It doesn't address recent developments or evaluate the positives and negatives of the current gameplay and the proposed changes; just the negatives of current gameplay and the positives of the proposed changes. I would be more convinced by something that fairly evaluated the upsides and downsides of both.
 

EllieRoboBlastThemBots

Ellie the Fluffy Fox!
Pretend you're in, I don't know, 2030 and 2.3 has ben released. What do you think could be in it?
I think it would FINALLY add (sadly) RVZ2 and 3, DCZ, GEZ, and maybe, a remake of ERZ.
I honestly think in Techno Hill or something, they could use a mechanism like this (drawn in the style of the sonic mania concept art a bit)
I also animated it, as seen in the attatchments
srb2 concept.png
 

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Nookels

Formerly LloydLuigi123
Will 2.3 have a similar menu to mania, but horizontally flipped like that video?
Edit: grammar
 

64bitmodels

Member
Adding stronger momentum physics and wallrunning would completely destroy that, making it just another generic 3D Classic sonic fangame.
here's my take on this
1. If it ends up being generic because they decided to improve the physics and make it play more like... yknow, a sonic game, i think that the game has some underlying issues that need fixing. Why not try stuff like breaking away from the typical sonic tropes of green paradise to big bustling factory? The game already does this somewhat with stages like castle eggman, techno hill, arid canyon, (while it does ape off of dust hill and Mirage saloon, the zone has a lot of mechanics and artistic choices that help easily set it apart from those 2) and red volcano. They could just add that uniqueness to the entire game instead of just those few zones. Maybe make greenflower zone more of a jungle, or give Deep Sea a hydrocity style glow up with more of a focus on speed and water skimming mechanics. Egg rock could have a third act dedicated entirely to super sonic and how blatantly overpowered he is. Or you could give the game a large amount of cutscenes so that it has an actual story, which is something a lot of fangames seem to stray away from, even the ones i love like Utopia and Classic 1/2. Sonic BTS, ATS and Chrono Adventure are my favorite fangames of all time purely because the level designs and art direction are heavily inspired, despite reusing assets from original games each zone has an aesthetic and vibe to it that hasn't been replicated by any official sonic game or fangame made. Not to mention a simplistic but fun to watch and well animated story. If SRB2 did that with its art direction and design, I think it could truly excel.

2. SRB2 will never be generic purely because of the fact that unlike most 3d classic sonic fangames, it's actually near completion. there's a level of content and polish seen in SRB2 that most 3d sonic fangames have never had in the past. People WILL go to SRB2 because it's the only thing on the market that's actually reminiscent of a finished game. You mention Utopia in this post, which i find funny since the game has been missing in action for 5 years, meanwhile almost 3 years ago SRB2 got one of the biggest overhauls and updates in its entire history. I think that says something.
 
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MobyKong

DO NOT ACQUIRE POSSESION OF A BOVINE ANIMAL
2. SRB2 will never be generic purely because of the fact that unlike most 3d classic sonic fangames, it's actually near completion. there's a level of content and polish seen in SRB2 that most 3d sonic fangames have never had in the past. People WILL go to SRB2 because it's the only thing on the market that's actually reminiscent of a finished game. You mention Utopia in this post, which i find funny since the game has been missing in action for 5 years, meanwhile almost 3 years ago SRB2 got one of the biggest overhauls and updates in its entire history. I think that says something.
What do you mean by near completion?
 

64bitmodels

Member
What do you mean by near completion?
....what i meant. At this point all we need is ERZ to be remade, RV2, DCZ to be a thing, and then we're mostly finished with the entire game. That's more progress than any other 3d Sonic fangame out there, and even more content than official games.
 

lnferno

Blazing Creator
here's my take on this
1. If it ends up being generic because they decided to improve the physics and make it play more like... yknow, a sonic game, i think that the game has some underlying issues that need fixing. Why not try stuff like breaking away from the typical sonic tropes of green paradise to big bustling factory? The game already does this somewhat with stages like castle eggman, techno hill, arid canyon, (while it does ape off of dust hill and Mirage saloon, the zone has a lot of mechanics and artistic choices that help easily set it apart from those 2) and red volcano. They could just add that uniqueness to the entire game instead of just those few zones. Maybe make greenflower zone more of a jungle, or give Deep Sea a hydrocity style glow up with more of a focus on speed and water skimming mechanics. Egg rock could have a third act dedicated entirely to super sonic and how blatantly overpowered he is. Or you could give the game a large amount of cutscenes so that it has an actual story, which is something a lot of fangames seem to stray away from, even the ones i love like Utopia and Classic 1/2. Sonic BTS, ATS and Chrono Adventure are my favorite fangames of all time purely because the level designs and art direction are heavily inspired, despite reusing assets from original games each zone has an aesthetic and vibe to it that hasn't been replicated by any official sonic game or fangame made. Not to mention a simplistic but fun to watch and well animated story. If SRB2 did that with its art direction and design, I think it could truly excel.

2. SRB2 will never be generic purely because of the fact that unlike most 3d classic sonic fangames, it's actually near completion. there's a level of content and polish seen in SRB2 that most 3d sonic fangames have never had in the past. People WILL go to SRB2 because it's the only thing on the market that's actually reminiscent of a finished game. You mention Utopia in this post, which i find funny since the game has been missing in action for 5 years, meanwhile almost 3 years ago SRB2 got one of the biggest overhauls and updates in its entire history. I think that says something.
Fun fact: DSZ2 during 2.2 dev was headed in the direction you suggested (it had massive water slides, some speed, and also had a unique "flooded crystal cave with some ruins" aesthetic, as compared to LZ where it was all ruins with crystals); this remake wasn't finished in time.

Also, there are wishes to ADD S3K-esque cutscenes eventually (hence the rework of the end of levels shown in #devetopment).

Ultimately, I don't see why trying to be more similar to the source material should be seen as a thing that makes the game "less unique" and therefore worse.
Accel-Mom DOES have issues that I agree with, but keep in mind it's not finished and was released TO submit feedback. We also don't have as much to work off with the "Scrunk"/"Power Spin", and arguing it's too complex and therefore bad when... that's not necessarily the case. Simple things can be bad if not worse than complex things at times, and it's been pointed out that the simplicity of the Thok does not help newer players. There's also the fact that this move is entirely on Jump.

The two primary issues here are the following:
1. For the Scrunk/Power Spin, we're going off a single GIF and some of what MotorRoach showed, which is a WIP LUA prototype that is subject to tweaks (especially the Wall-Dash height).
2. We're all mostly used to SRB2 as is, therefore we'll struggle to see some of the bad that new players see.

There ARE pros and cons to both, but we cannot just dismiss change because it has any cons. By that logic, nothing would change because it could have a downside. We need to evaluate both evenly.
 
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glaber

Emblem Radar Ready
Another issue with the scrunk is the lack of transparency with a huge change. Without anything but the gif to judge it by, speculation will only get worse.

Even using the X-treme sonic character addon, which is the closest to the scrunk I can currently get, I am not convinced the scrunk is the way to go.

Also they should have came out with the better name before the name scrunk as "Scrunk" has stuck.

We at least have the Accel-Mom build to test out the new physics, and I have my criticisms of that build too, but at least we're able to try it out at all.
 
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SpongeSonicGuy(?)

こんにちは、ソニック (translate this.)
When I was new to the game, I didn't even have any trouble with the thok what so ever, as I played some other games that something like the thok. It's not bad once you get used to it, which might be very quickly depending on the player.
 

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