2.3 Discussion

glaber

Emblem Radar Ready
1 and 2: I had multiplayer in mind when writing my post. With 1, you would sometimes have situations where it looks like a character is facing you when they are actually just above/below you, whereas with 2 the flat nature of the sprites could be abused to render players invisible to each other when seen from above/below, landing cheap shots in match for example.
3. Not necessarily, but it would definitely look odd to have characters suddenly spinning for a moment as they run past you from above/below when they aren't actually spinning, and it would be especially jarring for characters like Espio and Blaze.
4. All you did here is reiterate the point I already made, so I don't really see the point to it's inclusion in your reply at all.
1+2: I don't think you did. You haven't addressed the issue of missing sprite frames. Like for example, you're going to need those overhead and under foot sprites for when the player on the loop is wall running. The *3*7 frames can only really cover a head on look from the side. You would still need more sprite frames to cover the rest of the angles, and by that point you might as well make the player visible from above.
take a look at this image for what would be needed:
1660572378578.png


This Sprite Sheet of Knuckles from X-Treme would also serve as a good reference for how many sprites would be needed just for walking, and even then, this might not actually have enough.

Sxc_knuckles_runs.gif


3: you did mention that the spin frames would look odd, and Jarring to have them look like they're spinning when they're not, but that's why you don't use those frames outside of their proper context.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
1+2: I don't think you did. You haven't addressed the issue of missing sprite frames. Like for example, you're going to need those overhead and under foot sprites for when the player on the loop is wall running.
I absolutely did have it in mind, which I why I said:
which would look odd from above and below.
which could be abused in certain online game modes.

The *3*7 frames can only really cover a head on look from the side. You would still need more sprite frames to cover the rest of the angles, and by that point you might as well make the player visible from above.
Most of this can be covered by just rotating the existing sprites similar to slope roll angle, which mostly looks fine unless you are viewing the characters running up onto a wall from directly behind them, or viewing them from above/below them, in which case the issues I've pointed out start to happen. A new set of sprites covering the "above" and "below" angles could similarly be rotated in any direction and still look fine, trimming the amount of extra work required exponentially, but there would still be a lot of work to do to make the sprites so that they then could be rotated in-game as needed.

From the side, all the required sprites already exist. It's just a matter of covering the vertical directions for viewing the characters running up onto a slope when viewed from in front and behind, which can then be flipped upside down to complete the loop, as well as viewing the characters from straight below and straight above them, which can likewise only need one set as you can rotate these to match the direction the player is facing.

It's complicated because while rotating existing sprites reduces the amount of work required exponentially, it's still exponentially the amount of work required presently. The most elegant solution is to simply switch entirely to 3D models, but for those with potato PC's which struggle to run SRB2 with everything modeled, they would no longer be able to play the game. The game can be rather deceptively demanding with models enabled, especially with lots of players in-game and many addons enabled.

3: you did mention that the spin frames would look odd, and Jarring to have them look like they're spinning when they're not, but that's why you don't use those frames outside of their proper context.
You would use them because they look good from any angle, and you don't even need to rotate them. Yes, it would look odd in some contexts, but it's the easiest way to avoid transitioning from using sprites entirely. It's ungraceful and at times unsightly, but practical nonetheless.
 

glaber

Emblem Radar Ready
Look, the sprite issue is likely the reason it's never going to happen. In fact that first image was taken from another topic on loops in SRB2 where the person who use the image was explaining why they weren't going to happen. In fact, the sheet barely even begins to cover all the needed rotation frames, but that's why I also included that gif of Knuckles from X-treme.

Yes you have sprite rotation, but then you still have to program the game to show new sprites for the unrotated frames.
And if we have to use spin frames as place holders, that's just going to make player characters look about as good as place holder knuckles from demo 3. (Extreme case but that seems to be where the suggestion is headed)

If we have to go the OpenGL exclusive route for 3d models then you have to ensure that models can't be turned off, and that there are readily available tutorials for how to make these models
 

RedSRB2

Average SRB2MB Enjoyer
Well,i dont know if i can say much for 2.3,unless they are gonna finish Red Vulcano,change some of the characters' abilities(im watching you Sonic's Speed Thok :threat: ),and maybe remaster some of the zones.As for Game Mode(im saying this for SP),Encore mode would maybe be added,and one more things,CUTSCENES.Yes,them bc they were once inteded to be used once you passed a zone in old days of SRB2. I said enough now.
 

Ace Dragon

Member
If we have to go the OpenGL exclusive route for 3d models then you have to ensure that models can't be turned off, and that there are readily available tutorials for how to make these models
What will also be needed is a robust exporter that can convert models made in Blender to the format and name system needed by SRB2 to render them. I assume Blender will be the de-facto modeler for modders here since it has the best modeling you can get for free.

For spriters though, most engines these days have hardware sprite rotation which can orient sprites on the pixel level, which combined with clever camera code can reduce the number of additional sprites needed for Sonic and friends to go upside-down. However, you may get to the point where using a 3D model is actually less work and uses less memory (even though Blender can also be used to turn sprite creation into a fairly rapid process, as proven by the setup you can get in the modding forum).
 

RedSRB2

Average SRB2MB Enjoyer
What will also be needed is a robust exporter that can convert models made in Blender to the format and name system needed by SRB2 to render them. I assume Blender will be the de-facto modeler for modders here since it has the best modeling you can get for free.

For spriters though, most engines these days have hardware sprite rotation which can orient sprites on the pixel level, which combined with clever camera code can reduce the number of additional sprites needed for Sonic and friends to go upside-down. However, you may get to the point where using a 3D model is actually less work and uses less memory (even though Blender can also be used to turn sprite creation into a fairly rapid process, as proven by the setup you can get in the modding forum).
Such a wise word ngl.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
I'd personally rather SRB2 not go the route of exclusive 3D myself, even if it does make loops/wallrunning more visually workable. Even aside from how it would impact modding, there's a certain charm to the 2D sprites that would get lost in the transition. Maybe that's just nostalgia talking, but I really like the sprites, especially the more recent ones. That said though, if it was decided that going exclusive 3D was necessary then I wouldn't throw a fit over it or anything.
 
What will also be needed is a robust exporter that can convert models made in Blender to the format and name system needed by SRB2 to render them. I assume Blender will be the de-facto modeler for modders here since it has the best modeling you can get for free.

For spriters though, most engines these days have hardware sprite rotation which can orient sprites on the pixel level, which combined with clever camera code can reduce the number of additional sprites needed for Sonic and friends to go upside-down. However, you may get to the point where using a 3D model is actually less work and uses less memory (even though Blender can also be used to turn sprite creation into a fairly rapid process, as proven by the setup you can get in the modding forum).
Can assure you that Maya (despite being the standard) sucks, and crashes every 5 minutes. Which is annoying AF when not taking on consideration their glitches.

I'd personally rather SRB2 not go the route of exclusive 3D myself, even if it does make loops/wallrunning more visually workable. Even aside from how it would impact modding, there's a certain charm to the 2D sprites that would get lost in the transition. Maybe that's just nostalgia talking, but I really like the sprites, especially the more recent ones. That said though, if it was decided that going exclusive 3D was necessary then I wouldn't throw a fit over it or anything.
Nobody said 'exclusive' but being the default option, instead of sprites

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Ngl, If its just 4 more sprites per State its not a big issue, tho I would still like you all to have in mind that most of the people that mod the game have no experience in 3D... I cant say nor deny that 4 is much or just a little since when you're making a Mod you're already commiting to making tons of sprites, unlike SRB2Kart
 

glaber

Emblem Radar Ready
I think blender is capable of making MD2 and MD3 already as they're formats that were used with other games. We just lack tutorials of our own.

We could still use tutorials for them regardless. Just for the basics at least.
 

RedSRB2

Average SRB2MB Enjoyer
I think blender is capable of making MD2 and MD3 already as they're formats that were used with other games. We just lack tutorials of our own.

We could still use tutorials for them regardless. Just for the basics at least.
Thats true for tutorials,but Cacee has its tutorial if i remember good enough.
 
i think as a whole making models the preferable/default/only option would really harm the modding community as (speaking as someone who has no idea how to model, let alone follow a blender tutorial) 3d assets are much, much more difficult to start getting into, as opposed to 2d artwork, which is much simpler and to the point. having 2d art on a 3d plane a unique part of srb2's visual style and, i'll be honest, the game would probably be worse off if it was made less prominent.

but that's my personal bias towards sprites, i'm sure people who prefer 3d models would completely disagree.
 

csean07 (Sega-tendo

I see what I don't even see at all.
I pretty much thought that if THZ1 started off next to the GFZ Boss for like an transition from GFZ to THZ. (Basically similar to the old THZ1 from 2.0)
Here is some examples what I thought off.
(Yes, I know it's just a reskin of the beginning part but this is just an example.)
 

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SonicRulez

Member
I just realized, why not, for a higher end option, have the 2D sprites be 3D Voxels instead?... atleast for the characters
Interesting idea, you probably brought this up because of the new Doom thing. However, making the SRB2 sprites 3D Voxels instead of keeping them as standard models/sprites would require more source code editing. And not just that, but it would also require more time spent on actually creating the voxels, making them look good from every angle, ect.
 
Interesting idea, you probably brought this up because of the new Doom thing. However, making the SRB2 sprites 3D Voxels instead of keeping them as standard models/sprites would require more source code editing. And not just that, but it would also require more time spent on actually creating the voxels, making them look good from every angle, ect.
Kinda, I actually had the idea of doing my character model on Voxels (because I didn't know how to make some angles) (that's why i asked on discord)... after seeing the Video it clicked me.
It is cursed to see pixels rotating but at that point you might just play on the lowest resolution or smth

The real problem is the amount of poligons that the game has to render, making it the highest demanding option...
Post automatically merged:

Changing Subject.
Dynamic Music... would be so cool to have Speed Shoes + Invencibility / Invencibility + Speed Shoes theme like on Sonic Neo genesis. and Separate underwater music tracks
 

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