1.09.4 Save System vs. 2.0.2 Save System

[Fawfulfan]

As most of you know, the saving system in SRB2 has been dramatically changed with the release of SRB2 2.0.

In the old system, saving was an open, manual process. Unless you were in a Special Stage or something similar, you could save whenever you wanted. If you collected a Special Stage Token or something similar, you could save and it would be in your file. Also, you could immediately overwrite any save block at any time as a one-step process. And a game didn't have to be part of a save block unless you made it so.

However, the new system is far more restrictive. The game is automatically saved at the beginning of each zone. You cannot save Special Stage Tokens, nor can you save upon completing an act. Also, overwriting is not possible in the new version. You must first delete an old save. And as if all that wasn't bad enough, you must have a clear save block in order to start a new game, meaning that if you have six saved games and want to start a seventh that you don't intend to save, you still have to delete one of the other files to play.

I'll illustrate just one example of how this save system gets on my nerves. Let's say I want to get all the chaos emeralds by the end of THZ. Under the old save system, I could find both tokens in THZ1, save, complete the level and Special Stages 4 and 5, save again, find both tokens in THZ2, save, complete the level and Special Stages 6 and 7, and save again, thus ending up with a file on THZ3 with 7 emeralds. It's a somewhat tall order, but I have the cushion of saving to help me out.

But under the NEW save system, I would have to find both tokens in THZ1, complete the level and Special Stages 4 and 5, find both tokens in THZ2, complete the level and Special Stages 6 and 7, defeat the Egg Slimer, and then get autosaved. And I can't mess up any part of that sequence, or I'll have to start all over again! Everything will have to go perfectly. Counting the Special Stages, that's seven levels I'll have to get through, four of which I must not die on at any time, before I can save what I've done.

A definite trend in the new version of SRB2 is turning up the difficulty a notch. That's fine, but this new save system is simply going too far. The last thing I want to do while struggling with a long, tricky level (or in any case, really) is to be handicapped by a crappy save system. If higher-level SRB2 players want a challenge, why don't they just make a personal choice to save infrequently, and let less skilled players save how they please?

Bottom line for me: the new save system makes SRB2 simultaneously harder and less fun. That's 0 for 2.

Now, do you guys agree? Disagree?

 

[Chibs]

So now we're going to have ****storms over a simple issue in SRB2ME? The save system in SRB2ME is perfectly fine, except for the bug in the first EXE that was fixed with 2.0.1. Seriously.

And if you don't like the way you collect the emeralds, you must have absolutely hated the sidescrollers.

 

[Shuffle]

I think it's fine. It's way too easy to be able to just save on every single act like you could previously. There's a reason Sonic 3 did that, too.

 

[emblempride]

So now we're going to have ****storms over a simple issue in SRB2ME?

In another topic, Sonict I believe told OP that if he wants to discuss it, he could in another topic, as long as it is done civilly.

IMO, if they added autosave by Act it would've been much better. I'm still satisfied with the new system though.

 

[ST218]

I'd like to see everyone's copies of the letters they wrote to Sega when Sonic 3 had this exact same system, and how it ruined their lives.

Tell you what, if we ever make a save per act system, we'll ramp up the difficulty of the individual acts accordingly. I mean, what's the point of hiding a dozen extra lives in ERZ2 if they won't be used, so we'll just remove them for Eggman boxes. And I guess the crushers aren't fast enough since you'll only be sent back to the beginning of an act.

It's not just a matter of "blah, I want save per act.", it's a matter of how our single player game is balanced for save per zone.

Now, I'm not saying that we should ignore your points because we're too lazy to listen to your suggestions-rather, I'm pointing out that it's not just a matter of changing the save system; there'll be ramifications beyond where you continue your file.

 

[K.S.]

To put it simply, you guys were spoiled by 1.09.4's old save system, which was a hangover from Doom.

Now we've changed it, and suddenly you guys whine like hell because it's DIFFERENT.

I bet none of this would happen if we'd had this save system from the start, hm?

 

[Fawfulfan]

Well, no, because we wouldn't have known there was a better way of doing it.

I actually wouldn't mind having the difficulty toned up a bit more in exchange for the save system going back to the way it was.

 

[Penopat]

As long as you find a way to make it so it recovers from crashes without lost progress, I'd be totally fine with the save system. I'm okay with losing progress due to my own stupidity, but not so much for the game pooping at some random moment after you've earned that last emerald.

Also, there's no point in having all the emeralds by the end of THZ2. If you fail to get the seventh emerald for example, just get it in DSZ1 - heck, you'll have 4 extra tries at it before the next save, so what's the worry?

What's the point of having more than one save block for each character anyways? Just manipulate the save block files in your SRB2 folder if you need more than 7 for some reason.

 

[clairebun]

But under the NEW save system, I would have to find both tokens in THZ1, complete the level and Special Stages 4 and 5, find both tokens in THZ2, complete the level and Special Stages 6 and 7, defeat the Egg Slimer, and then get autosaved. And I can't mess up any part of that sequence, or I'll have to start all over again! Everything will have to go perfectly. Counting the Special Stages, that's seven levels I'll have to get through, four of which I must not die on at any time, before I can save what I've done.

See, that's called challenge. It appears in a number of 16 bit games, and it's actually one of the defining elements of the old Sonic games, even Sonic 3, which had this exact save system, as you might recall.

Yeah, everything will have to go perfectly. That's because you're trying to get all of the emeralds before going into Deep Sea Zone. If you want to go super that early in the game, you damn well better be able to earn those emeralds; otherwise, tough luck, pro.



The save system is entirely competent; it's not perfect, but that's because we're talking about a game that isn't complete. As a matter of fact, it'd be even better than the 1.09.4 system if there was just a proper continue system.

See, in 1.09.4, continues didn't mean jack shit. So you have a continue and get to start back at the beginning of the level with three lives. Big deal; you could do that with a save file. Now, if you get a game over on an act 2, then a continue is a lot more rewarding, because otherwise you'd have to start back all over again. The problem is SRB2 gives you only one continue; no way to earn continues, no variation of how many you start out with. I think I have the perfect solution to this. The 1.09.4 system doesn't need to be brought back; the new system just needs to be tweaked a little more.



If you want the 1.09.4 system back so badly, then do keep in mind that people can create exe mods, and with that in mind, restoring the old save system in an alternate exe without disturbing the main exe. I don't think it should be brought back into 2.0.2 just because we're so used to spoiling ourselves with a save-anytime function.

 

[JEV3]

The reason I like the zone-by-zone system is that it keeps each zone feeling like its own cohesive level whereas beforehand there really wasn't a difference between a three act zone and three one-act zones. The only time where it seems a little cheap is ERZ, but the difficulty curve should be much smoother for the next version.

 

[clairebun]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's at least two missing zones in between RVZ and ERZ, so that explains the sudden difficulty.

 

[glaber]

I bet none of this would happen if we'd had this save system from the start, hm?

From the Start, from version .98 or demo 2. This situation would had been over had this happened sooner.

But there is another problem with this save system. This save system can only save in the main levels, but not in the unlockables like [spoiler:1e08ca1b5c]The SRB1 levels[/spoiler:1e08ca1b5c] or Mario Koopa Blast (I really doubt this one is a spoiler considering 1.09.4 had it.) For all we know, until we know how it fully works, this save system could be incompatiable with mods.

ST218, Sonic 3's situation is different. For SEGA, they were going from No Saving in Sonic 2 to Battery Saving in Sonic 3 Alone. Back then, Battery saving, heck saving in video games at all was a rare concept and many games were still using passwords for recording your progress.

With SRB2, it went from Save anywhere to Almost S3 style. (The no save option was not ready at release. Minor detail)

I've already made a comparison of this save system To Valve's Spy vs Sniper Update for TF2 and made a suggestion that falls along the same line of merging the save systems together

 

[jet]

I both like it and don't like it... I like it because I forgot to save alot but I dpn't like it becuse I had a hard time getting through some zones without being able to save on every act.

 

[Ezer'Arch]

Please, keep 2.0's save system.

The only things from previous system I'd like to see back would be:

- Possibility of choice: I could choose not to save anything. I can start a game without a savegame and play at own risk. Thus I can "archive" some gameplays and enjoy it when I want to play again, and nothing is overwritten or lost.

- Savegame naming: in old system, I can give names to my savegames. Reason: same above.

 

[Fawfulfan]

I also say that there's a big difference between challenging the gamer by making the levels tricky and well-made, and challenging the gamer by replacing a perfectly fine save system with an outdated version of said system. I mean, logically, you can simulate this challenge in the 1.09.4 save system by not allowing yourself to save, but this version forces you to do things the hard way.

I am sorry, but, while many retro elements in gaming are great and fun to bring back (it's the primary reason SRB2 is so great), a retro save system is not among them. Saving is one of the few parts of video gaming that has improved almost consistently over the years. Bringing back the prehistoric save systems forces us to take the bad with the good, in a situation where we shouldn't have to.

One of the big arguments in favor of the new system is that we have been "spoiled" by the old system. In my opinion, there is no such thing as being "spoiled" in terms of video game features. Either you are satisfied with the features, or you are dissatisfied. It doesn't make sense that we should have to "look past" a bad element in games, when we can simply change it.

 

[Cue]

So you're saying you liked the old system because it meant you could constantly replay any part of the game you kept failing at?

Sounds like a cheap way of beating the game, if you ask me. Instead, practice and actually become better at the game so you don't even need a save system. I only make use of the thing when I leave the game and go back to it later, other than that I don't use this cheap tactic to try and complete the game with the save system holding my hand.

tl;dr, be better at SRB2.

 

[Autosaver]

(I really doubt this one is a spoiler considering 1.09.4 had it.)

Actually, there are many players who have never heard of SRB2. And 2.0 was there first download.

I agree with Blue Warrior. The new save system is FINE. But it needs to be tweaked more. I mean... 1 continue? Seriously, why not just remove it all together or just give us more lives. Continues are useless in this game.

Also S3's stages we're short. SRB2's can take up to 20 minutes on your first try. Though, if we're trying to get it like S3. Please tweak it. :D And add a no save feature in 2.0.3.

I also would like to note. I don't really like how the save feature doesn't work in hidden levels. Make 30+ time over and over. And no one is going to get past a certain Mystic Realm level on their first try. :p

 

[Mystic]

I'll illustrate just one example of how this save system gets on my nerves. Let's say I want to get all the chaos emeralds by the end of THZ. Under the old save system, I could find both tokens in THZ1, save, complete the level and Special Stages 4 and 5, save again, find both tokens in THZ2, save, complete the level and Special Stages 6 and 7, and save again, thus ending up with a file on THZ3 with 7 emeralds. It's a somewhat tall order, but I have the cushion of saving to help me out.

This, right here, is the reason why the save system was changed. You were never intended to be able to do this. You couldn't do it in the classic games, and quite simply it reeks of savestate abuse. This, quite simply, feels more like cheating and less like a system designed to save your progress.

SRB2 is not intended to be played like Half-Life, where you bind quicksave and quickload to a key and press them every time you accomplish anything. You're supposed to play for several minutes before you get a chance to save your progress.

But under the NEW save system, I would have to find both tokens in THZ1, complete the level and Special Stages 4 and 5, find both tokens in THZ2, complete the level and Special Stages 6 and 7, defeat the Egg Slimer, and then get autosaved. And I can't mess up any part of that sequence, or I'll have to start all over again! Everything will have to go perfectly. Counting the Special Stages, that's seven levels I'll have to get through, four of which I must not die on at any time, before I can save what I've done.

Yes, but what you're forgetting is that you have multiple chances to do all of this. It's not like there are only 7 special stage tokens in the game, so you have many, many chances to complete the special stages properly. Also, for the normal stages, you have a lives system, where you get multiple tries in each stage, as long as you have lives. It's not like you have to do all of that in one attempt. The only reason it's that challenging is because you want all the emeralds before you step foot in DSZ, which implies you can't mess up a single special stage. If you want to get all the emeralds, you have something around 20 attempts total for the 7 special stages, which is FAR more reasonable.

Saves are not intended to keep your progress for every minor action you do. They're intended to save your progress if you get to say, Arid Canyon, and decide you've gotta leave and go hang out with friends. They're also there should you get a Game Over, preventing you from going all the way back to the beginning of the game.

Now so far, there have been TWO legitimate complaints about the save system:

1. There is no "No save" option like Sonic 3K. That should be added later.
2. It does not save the emeralds you've collected during the zone. It should save which emerald tokens you've used and which emeralds you've collected, like S3K did, so you don't have the issue where you collect an emerald in act 1, lose in act 2, and then have to do the special stage again.

The rest of the complaints here just reek of savestate abuse. The game is not intended to let you save after every jump you make, and it seems like that's what you people want. This is already a LOT more generous than a lot of games I play, where there isn't such a thing as a "save" function at all. If you get a Game Over in ERZ2, then it's time to go through ERZ1 again. This will take less than 2 minutes with practice, and if you lose in ERZ2 you're going to get quite a bit of practice at it.

 

[Kaysakado]

If you guys can't beat either of those two unlocks in one sitting, you really, really suck. As for replaying specific parts:
[spoiler:13b753a7b8]For MKB, it takes ~30 second for the first two acts, I think waiting up to a minute and maybe even less to get to your favorite act isn't that long,[/spoiler:13b753a7b8]
[spoiler:13b753a7b8]For SRB1, just use DEVMODE and the map command. Also, there's supposed to be an SRB1 Level Select, but for some reason it's bugged and won't unlock, so when that's fixed...[/spoiler:13b753a7b8]

 

[Tets]

The new save system is not a "retro" or "prehistoric" save system, it's a realistic one, and it is known to work very well. It worked back when SRAM was first introduced and it will continue to work in the future. Don't try to claim that "save anywhere" is inherently a superior system, that is a fallacy and you know it. The only reason the old system stuck around for so long was because nobody bothered to change it.

Manually saving and reloading any time you want is an element that is simply out of place in a 3D platformer. You don't see it in any other Sonic game, not even the newest ones. What's more, you aren't complaining about that! So why are you complaining about it here? In my opinion, I see the old save system as promoting lazy gaming. Whatever challenge existed before is all but eliminated when you can effectively rewind every time you miss a jump or run into a bad guy.