Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

Well that's ok then. I want to avoid circular arguments too and that's one of the reasons I want Super Everyone so we can break this 14 year circle among other, better reasons.

such as Metal having Super too, and being able to play with a temporary power upgrade.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/KQduryGU1yHJ/
 
I think everyone can agree that the problem is the lack of ANY reward or acknowledgement from the game for getting the emeralds as the other characters, not necessarily that they don't get the generic "super" advantages that sonic gets.

Saying it's harder to play as sonic is really not an argument that can stand on its own, everyone has different preferences and strengths, but even if that's true, ever since the last major update the special stages play exactly the same for everyone, and those are the whole challenge in getting the emeralds (yes, there's the tokens too, but it's almost impossible not to stumble upon them if you're trying to find them, even as sonic).

I know the game is not nearly done yet, but having the only reward for going through such a task be "the satisfaction of doing so" is a little disappointing, to say the least.

If 2.2 proved anything is that the ingeniousity and creativity of this dev team is without limits, so I'd be really surprised if they couldn't come up with ANY kind of reward that enhances/modifies the gameplay of the other characters, not necessarily the ol' generic super.
 
Well that's ok then. I want to avoid circular arguments too and that's one of the reasons I want Super Everyone so we can break this 14 year circle among other, better reasons.

such as Metal having Super too, and being able to play with a temporary power upgrade.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/KQduryGU1yHJ/

I don't have a stake in the super argument and I don't care how many threads we have on the topic. My main concern is that I don't think Super plays well on Metal specifically, and that it makes absolutely no sense from either a balance standpoint or a player expectations standpoint that Sonic and Metal go super but Knuckles doesn't. I do not care whether all characters go Super or only Sonic. My only concern is that the current state of affairs is addressed.

To that end, I think I have made fairly reasonable attempts to bridge everyone's concerns by arguing in favor of individualized transformations , which would appeal to certain members of the dev team and still appease those who wish to be rewarded for collecting seven emeralds as their preferred character. And if you haven't noticed, the notion of individualized transformations has been received pretty positively by others who have posted in this thread.

Assuming that our goal is to please as many people as possible with our game design (which, to at least some extent, I think it is), it is disingenuous for you to link to a 2006 strawpoll in favor of your argument, where at least a third of respondents say they only want Sonic to have Super, and nowhere in sight of the poll is a question of individualized emerald rewards. Thus far, the last option appears to be the least contentious choice, and you are the only person I've heard who has strong convictions against it. In fact, out of all of the people who have posted so far, it feels like you are the only person who is uninterested in veering from any solution but the hardline stance of "everyone gets super", and you've certainly made it appear that way for the bulk of this conversation.

I am willing to grant that you want what is best for this game as well as I do, but your pressure on this issue comes off as antagonistic and acting in bad faith. I have no business commanding the direction of the conversation, but I would like to respectfully ask that you ease away from your hardline stance on supers and instead consider opening up to ideas that might deviate from the sacred formula, opting to make them feel like a proper and natural replacement. Even in the possible event that you might be right in the long run, constantly insisting on your original stance with fallacious and recycled arguments is not helping to make this conversation any more productive for anyone else.
 
Last edited:
We do not believe that supers are core to the gameplay experience and we think they do, in fact, detract from it if they're available to everyone in current form. If and when we find a way to implement them that we like and think works, we'll do so. But I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish by arguing for it over and over and over again. 13 pages of back-and-forth on this seems like a lot much to me, especially when some of the pages are bad faith arguments or borderline vitriol.

It's been established very early in this thread that it's always a frustrating experience whenever this topic comes up, developers are asked to elaborate on what led to these decisions, but the explanations given are often insufficient or disagreeable at the very least, or something that ends up being subjective in its earnest, hence the ping-pong. No one understands anything, frustration escalates, and whatever instance of the discussion that went wrong gets written off as drama, which in turn lowers everyone's patience whenever the topic comes up again (because it will). It's not as irrational as it looks. That's why I believe it would be better if, for some cases, an explanation wouldn't be provided at all.

My solution would've been another unlockable level for everyone you got the emeralds as, but when I brought up a similar proposal before, the reason against it was that they didn't want to encourage grinding the same special stages multiple times, which is fair.

Eh?
So doing Emerald runs with each character is not the intended experience? Is that what that entails? This is very confusing.
 
Last edited:
I disagree with shared emeralds being inherent for all save files on principle. I do enjoy the special stages for what they are, and they're a welcome pace break to the main game personally. Just getting rid of them on all later save files would be just unfortunate.
This is a case where a literal new game+ option that's obtained from completing the game with all emeralds would be better. That can then be used if people just want to start a new game as whatever character and all emeralds from the start.

You then do come back to the problem that the new game+ is almost pointless on 2/3 of the cast though, which is where the original topic creeps back in.
 
I disagree with shared emeralds being inherent for all save files on principle. I do enjoy the special stages for what they are, and they're a welcome pace break to the main game personally. Just getting rid of them on all later save files would be just unfortunate.

I don't see why emeralds even need to be shared amongst all save files when we can instead rope them into the universal level select. I expect that eventually we're going to have the level select moved away from its late-unlock status and instead be a reward for completing the campaign; if that is the case, then we're already allowing other characters to skip most of the campaign to play whichever level the player chooses. I'm okay with this, and I don't see the issue with having special stages also skipped for players who use this method. If players can start a new save file without any emeralds, then that means they still have the freedom to play special stages in the campaign if they choose to, while still having the freedom to go super externally through the universal level select.
 
In regards to the discussion as it has reached up to this point, here are the facts as I understand them:

1. The core issue is primarily based around players feeling unrewarded by collecting the Chaos Emeralds as characters other than Sonic and Metal.
2. There are a number of suggested fixes for this issue, ranging from giving everyone Super Forms, altering the concept of what a Super Form is for each character, to even rewarding the player with a new level based around the character they collected the emeralds as, and several other ideas.
3. Pleasing everyone seems to be an impossible endeavor.

With this in mind, then logically speaking the question should become "What can be done to make the highest number of players possible feel properly rewarded for collecting the Chaos Emeralds as any character", and by extension "If this reward isn't traditional Supers for everyone, then what reward could adequately compare?"

In my opinion, as long as these two questions remain unanswered it's likely that the discussion around this topic will continue to loop back on itself endlessly.

Also in my opinion, the idea of giving everyone super forms that function differently from Super Sonic, or something special such as Fang's bike is the best direction to move in. I have two reasons for why I feel like this is the best course of action.

The first reason is because at least at this point, even without traditional Supers, each character would get a fun and unique reward for collecting the emeralds. This resolves the core issue, leaving only smaller, minor issues that some players might have regarding their chosen character not having a traditional Super Form. This is ultimately progress, and probably the most progress possible given that not everyone can be pleased.

The second reason is because this allows SRB2 to be unique without taking away the user's ability to use traditional Super Forms for everyone through the use of addons. Sure, this would block progression, but this would no longer be a part of the core issue because while playing vanilla you would still be rewarded as all characters.

This would not please everyone, I openly acknowledge that. However, I firmly believe it would please the highest amount of people possible, given that pleasing everyone is an impossible mission from the start. I am completely sure that going with what functionally works best for each character is a better route to take than simply relying on tradition, especially when that tradition has never been properly tested against an alternative before.
 
I havent read all of the pages on this board. And i probably wont. So I might fuck something up. but here we go. There is a part of this argument that I feel is underlooked.
Using the spoiler tag because im paranoid.
In the pandoras box, there is an option that enables super forms for any character. Tails is an exception. Why the hell is tails the only character that cant transform with cheats? this feels a lot like bias if you ask me.
Whats the point of doing this? This only feels like the devs are teasing the pro supers at this point.
If you can go super this way, why not just put them in now? As someone said a while ago, the game is unfinished. So making this move makes good sense imo. Why not add them in now to settle the arguments, and keep them in until a new solution is figured out?
 
What do you mean?
your save file after beating the game with all emeralds. Just start from Green Flower again.

---------- Post added at 01:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------

I havent read all of the pages on this board. And i probably wont. So I might fuck something up. but here we go. There is a part of this argument that I feel is underlooked.
Using the spoiler tag because im paranoid.
In the pandoras box, there is an option that enables super forms for any character. Tails is an exception. Why the hell is tails the only character that cant transform with cheats? this feels a lot like bias if you ask me.
Whats the point of doing this? This only feels like the devs are teasing the pro supers at this point.
If you can go super this way, why not just put them in now? As someone said a while ago, the game is unfinished. So making this move makes good sense imo. Why not add them in now to settle the arguments, and keep them in until a new solution is figured out?

Likely it was put in before Mania released in 2017 making the unlock look incomplete by today's standards.
 
Ikkarou Tatsuru said:
It's been established very early in this thread that it's always a frustrating experience whenever this topic comes up, developers are asked to elaborate on what led to these decisions, but the explanations given are often insufficient or disagreeable at the very least, or something that ends up being subjective in its earnest, hence the ping-pong. No one understands anything, frustration escalates, and whatever instance of the discussion that went wrong gets written off as drama, which in turn lowers everyone's patience whenever the topic comes up again (because it will). It's not as irrational as it looks. That's why I believe it would be better if, for some cases, an explanation wouldn't be provided at all.

So, as it turns out, when we make changes or decisions people don't like, it's very common for "well this answer is just unsatisfactory" to be a response. Remember this? No amount of information was gonna change this dude's mind or get him to understand the decision made.

Not every decision we make is going to be something that is based on as much hard data as that thread, and yes, that means that we're going to make decisions that are subjective sometimes and decisions that people don't like sometimes, and it won't be as cut and dry as "analog sucks based on years of observation." You're free not to like it, and express it within reason, but I have to be brutally honest here. You're not owed a completely satisfactory answer for decisions we make that you don't like, and using "well we didn't get a satisfactory answer" as an excuse for people being overly hostile is just not acceptable. So, I'm sorry, but while it may be established that it's frustrating, I don't find that to be particularly compelling for anything. We're not going to ignore questions people ask us just because some people might not like the answer. You're just going to have to live with that.

TehRealSalt said:
The fact that the gamedata exploit is literally in Releases right now, and anyone can download it, is proof enough that this system does not work.
So, I'm not sure I see the problem here. Having it so that you can set a custom gamedata also means you can mod the game to whatever extent you want and never have to worry about it. Extra characters? Done. Extra levels? Done. Reorganize the campaign? Done. Overhaul the campaign? Done. Anti-cheat here actually doubles as a method of prevention for someone just loading a wad to try and and accidentally spoiling something for themselves. I don't see having it so you can build a custom save file completely and making it an opt-in setup be an issue. It also has the side benefit of letting you fire up vanilla whenever you want with no issue.

Where I agree with you on, however, and I was convinced on through discussion in dev, was save files & ghost data for custom characters, but as I recall, that came up close to when we decided to push hard for release and that kinda fell through the cracks. We'd need a system in place to properly track that, and we don't have it.

JEV3 said:
There was a page or two that actually had very interesting and constructive discussion about what were some of the ways getting all the chaos emeralds could be made more diverse for other characters... including something about Fang riding a motorcycle. Looks like it got buried again by people still picking apart Mystic's first couple responses.
I think people were too eager to pick apart the response to actually engage with the idea presented. There was some interesting discussion there I agree we could use. It'll probably be a while before we actually get to implementing some sort of super concept though, since we're still not even 100% sure on how the abilities on the new characters have turned out, and that's something in particular we'd be looking at before putting super abilities in.
 
Game designers have no reason to spoil their players when the entire point behind an unlockable is that it's hard to get. If you can't earn it legit, you don't deserve to have it. Sure, you can just cheat to get it, but that should never be encouraged. Otherwise, the process of obtaining it legit is devalued. Doing things the right way becomes "bragging rights", which is never how something like a platformer should handle progression.
This is elitism that doesn't need to be peddled around here. A single player game does not have to tell the player they don't "deserve" something by playing the game their own way. The default game, as downloaded, will be the intended vanilla experience, and changing that (even to cheat) requires additional downloads and intentional configuration by the player anyway.

Now, turning on devmode or god in the console should disable unlocks just because most people using those are testing out something, and not trying to progress the game normally. But modding the game has more than enough purpose outside of cheating that it doesn't have to impede progress. There's a fair point that changing levels would cause problems, so I can see those as an exception (iirc changing unlockables requires an addon to set a custom gamedata anyway, and if not that could be another exception), and maybe addon authors should be able to mark their addons as "cheats" so that HMS won't unlock Pandora's Box for you by default. But a blanket prevention of saving with any mods removes some of the appeal of some of the quality-of-life-changing mods in Releases, and the current workaround of another mod being available is an admission that there's no good point to that.

Some people might not want their save file to be affected by any mods either, which is also fair, so what if there's an option for it?

I guess I'm veering off the topic of super forms, but I feel like addressing this would make it a lot easier to say "mod in whatever you want for super forms" if the player isn't being punished for doing that. (Quite frankly, it feels like the super form discussion itself is just people repeating opinions and going around in circles at this point anyway)


lmao this thread sucks past the first 2 pages
Thanks for your deep and insightful contribution to the discussion, Nev3r!
 
This is elitism that doesn't need to be peddled around here. A single player game does not have to tell the player they don't "deserve" something by playing the game their own way. The default game, as downloaded, will be the intended vanilla experience, and changing that (even to cheat) requires additional downloads and intentional configuration by the player anyway.

Now, turning on devmode or god in the console should disable unlocks just because most people using those are testing out something, and not trying to progress the game normally. But modding the game has more than enough purpose outside of cheating that it doesn't have to impede progress. There's a fair point that changing levels would cause problems, so I can see those as an exception (iirc changing unlockables requires an addon to set a custom gamedata anyway, and if not that could be another exception), and maybe addon authors should be able to mark their addons as "cheats" so that HMS won't unlock Pandora's Box for you by default. But a blanket prevention of saving with any mods removes some of the appeal of some of the quality-of-life-changing mods in Releases, and the current workaround of another mod being available is an admission that there's no good point to that.

Some people might not want their save file to be affected by any mods either, which is also fair, so what if there's an option for it?

I guess I'm veering off the topic of super forms, but I feel like addressing this would make it a lot easier to say "mod in whatever you want for super forms" if the player isn't being punished for doing that. (Quite frankly, it feels like the super form discussion itself is just people repeating opinions and going around in circles at this point anyway)

As I mentioned before, I'm entirely fine with mods that aren't cheats not blocking off progress. This is however, already how the system works. You can try it yourself by simply making a wad that does nothing but change GFZ1's music. You will see that you can still see your emblem progress (Tab on keyboard by default).

The problem is, almost all mods people make count as cheats. Character wads, level wads, unless the game has some sort of way of detecting that these things are properly balanced they could easily be used to cheese the game.

I don't really see how I'm elitist for thinking that a game should have anti-cheating systems in place. If you want to cheat that desperately without consequence, then use the modded save file instead of the vanilla one. I do agree however that a file that merely enables Super Forms for all characters and doesn't do anything else shouldn't count as a cheat, but at that point it might as well be put into the game properly so that you don't need to download a separate file from the game to toggle it on, or be distributed officially as an alternative option to whatever reward they come up with for the default vanilla experience.
 
"Super forms for all characters aren't a cheat, therefore they should be part of the vanilla game. All other mods that affect gameplay are cheats though, so it's right to prevent saving." Is this what you're saying, or am I misinterpreting? This is fallacious logic, considering super forms are literally just an overpowered way to go through the game, and is just another way of saying "my opinions on super forms should be vanilla" without providing a good reason.

Games should absolutely have anti-cheat systems in place for online multiplayer, because at that point you're ruining the experience for other people. In single-player, it makes no difference to anyone but you, so all forcing people to play the game vanilla does is restrict individual people's ability to play the game in the way that's most enjoyable to them. Clearing your save file vanilla can still be bragging rights, and that's all it needs to be. Telling people that they don't "deserve" a part of the game they didn't "earn properly" is where the elitism comes in.

As-is, if people want the unlockables without playing the game properly, there are plenty of folks willing to give out 100% savedata (either legitimate or hacked-in) so it's not like you're really stopping that.
 
"Super forms for all characters aren't a cheat, therefore they should be part of the vanilla game. All other mods that affect gameplay are cheats though, so it's right to prevent saving." Is this what you're saying, or am I misinterpreting?

You're misinterpreting. My point is not that all mods that affect gameplay are cheats. The problem is that it gets pretty overly complex trying to design in ways to detect what is and isn't a cheat when it comes to such things. For example, HMS definitely counts as a cheat, but a lot of characters that people make are actually reasonably balanced. How do you design it so the cheat system can tell which characters are okay and which characters are not? How do you make it so that the cheat system can tell if a level someone made is making it easy to cheese emblem collection or farm 1-ups or etc? Just because a custom level has a lot of 1ups in it doesn't mean they are necessarily placed in such a way as to be abusable, it might just be a long, hard level with lots of 1-ups placed along the way in risky to get to spots.

Therefore, the way the system works now is fine. It's better to be too safe than not safe enough.
 
You're misinterpreting. My point is not that all mods that affect gameplay are cheats. The problem is that it gets pretty overly complex trying to design in ways to detect what is and isn't a cheat when it comes to such things. For example, HMS definitely counts as a cheat, but a lot of characters that people make are actually reasonably balanced. How do you design it so the cheat system can tell which characters are okay and which characters are not? How do you make it so that the cheat system can tell if a level someone made is making it easy to cheese emblem collection or farm 1-ups or etc? Just because a custom level has a lot of 1ups in it doesn't mean they are necessarily placed in such a way as to be abusable, it might just be a long, hard level with lots of 1-ups placed along the way in risky to get to spots.

Therefore, the way the system works now is fine. It's better to be too safe than not safe enough.

Instead of defaulting to "It's impossible to automatically determine if something is a cheat or not, so let's ban everything", how about the mod author can choose whether their character is a cheat or not? The creator of the mod knows best, after all. And if the mod creator is wrong, then it won't get past Submissions.

Stuff like this is the whole point of having a Submissions -> Releases system.
 
Last edited:
Instead of defaulting to "It's impossible to automatically determine if something is a cheat or not, so let's ban everything", how about the mod author can choose whether their character is a cheat or not? The creator of the mod knows best, after all.

This beats the entire point of an anti-cheat system. There would be nothing stopping people from just flagging things like HMS or 1-up farming maps as non-cheats and abusing them. Think of an anti-cheat system as a security system. If anyone trying to get the past the security system could just decide they are worthy and get through without problem, you might as well not have the system to begin with and just let everything through.

Anti-cheat systems only work when they are handled internally, not by the player. The MB is nowhere close to the only place to obtain wads. People can make them themselves, get them off Discord, find links to them on youtube, or even get them from playing online matches with others.
 
Last edited:

Who is viewing this thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Back
Top