Are y'all intentionally ignoring the point of that entire paragraph to laser-focus on one example or
the Argument of Story is irrelevant because canonically,
As I said after my first post (and really should've emphasized in my first post - sorry), I don't really care what lore does, especially in the context of an unofficial fangame.Fuck official Sonic lore: none of it makes sense anyway, plus all storytelling is bullshit and can be selectively ignored by this fanfic game story.
I don't mean "diluting novelty" as in "diluting the novelty of super existing". I see it as "Sonic being super gives Sonic something novel, and if everyone in the game had it, it wouldn't be novel for Sonic to have it". If Sonic's super being unique to him isn't important to you, then hey, that's a fine outlook to have, but the alternative is a valid design choice too.The argument of diluting the novelty is nearly the same as super everyone reducing character diversity. A Fallacy. Super being a novel thing didn't last past Sonic 2.
Again, with Metal Sonic I can see it making sense because he's New Game + content. This specific explanation that I bring up wouldn't work with Amy, who you can get after a quick bit of exploration in the first act of the campaign, and it doesn't work quite as well with Fang because you still get him before the hardest bits of the game. The reason for those two not having super would connect to the above "Sonic being super gives him something novel" point, which Metal Sonic as post-game content doesn't contradict as badly.Plus Amy being harder than Sonic to play with, and Metal Sonic getting it too actually defeats the Reason Sonic use to be the only one to get Super as now there's a second Character who get's super, and a different character who's the hardest to play as in the base game.
Arguing over whether super benefits the characters who get it is futile. It's obvious they all do.Also Sonic 2 wasn't made with Knuckles in mind at all, yet Knuckles was still allowed to go super in Sonic 2 and was able to even benefit from his own move set in that game as well, even while super!
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Kaw1N6vK0Qvr/
This needs addressed regardless of anything to do with this argument. I personally think there's no point locking people out of progression via mods - if someone wants to get 200 emblems by loading up HMS and blasting through the levels, they should be more than welcome to - and I think it'd be a great solution to topics like this, where people endlessly argue over a design decision that doesn't have a single "correct" solution.My biggest problem with the "just mod the game if you don't like it" point that's been brought up in the past is that it disables saving & unlockables -- ever since 2.1, I basically had to ignore one of the biggest & one of my most favorite additions to the game, the emblem system, because if you add even one mod you're locked out of them (unless if you do that silly custom gamedata exploit).
Otherwise, if there were not legitimate downsides to adding a mod, I would totally agree with that :P
From a gameplay standpoint, Sonic being the only default character to go super makes sense because he's the hardest of the default characters to get through the base game with. (I said base game, not special stages. If you'll kindly note, nobody plays differently from each other in special stages in any other Sonic game either.) Tails and Knuckles have abilities that make platforming easier and Sonic doesn't. Ergo, he gets a special reward if the player manages to get through the game as him up to whatever point is required to get all the emeralds, while Tails and Knuckles just get the satisfaction of having got them.
"But why can't Amy go super despite being harder to play as than Sonic?" Super being on more characters dilutes the novelty, and if it was exclusive to an unlockable character then people who started as Sonic would feel gyped. "But then why can Metal turn super if it's easier to play as than Sonic and is a second character to unlock?" Uhhhh let's call it a New Game+ reward. Remember you have to beat the game before you can play as Metal Sonic. Also fall back on the storytelling excuse above.
"What's the motivation to get the chaos emeralds if you can't go super, then?" Does there have to be one? What's the motivation for getting a perfect bonus now that there's no emblem for it? What's the motivation for getting to the 80-ring alcove high above GFZ2 as Sonic with some sick crawla bounces? The answer is "the satisfaction of having done it". If you don't get satisfaction from doing it, then don't.
"Why not just let everyone go super, though? Do you hate fun?" If you've gotten to this point, honestly, please just go grab any one of the numerous "all characters go super" addons in Releases and play the game the way you find fun. You don't have to let the vanilla game define how you play if you don't want to. That's the beauty of an easily-moddable game!
Sonic getting super works because Sonic is harder to play as than Tails or Knuckles. It's a fair point that the special stages themselves are now the same difficulty as anyone, but the campaign you have to play through when you're not in them is most challenging as Sonic. It seems fair to reward the player who took the extra challenge with a power boost that the others don't get, so long as this fact is made obvious. (I feel like I've said this before...)My main problem with this logic is that it doesn't treat all players equally in the vanilla game. Why should players who choose to play Sonic be rewarded, but players who only want to play Tails or Knuckles not be for doing the same work? This is doubly true in online coop, as players will feel as though they worked together towards the same goal, but only those playing as a particular character will actually get the reward.
Well, technically you do get a reward for getting all the emeralds in your playthrough! An extra stage, which right now is more NiGHTS content. The difference is you meet that goal once and have it permanently, which means you don't really gain anything for doing it as someone besides Sonic, which I'll admit probably isn't a satisfying response.Why shouldn't players be given a reward for obtaining all the emeralds as any character? You mention that getting the emeralds is just for the satisfaction, but why does this need to be the case? Sure, they are optional. You aren't required to go after them at all. That's all the more reason however to reward the player for going to all the trouble to obtain them. I would even go so far as to say there is no satisfaction for collecting the emeralds as a character without a reward for doing so, because there's no longer any tangible point to the endeavor. Why should I ever feel satisfied collecting the emeralds as Tails if I get nothing for it and know full well I would have if I was Sonic instead? The feeling I get instead is having done a lot of work for nothing, and it actually feels pretty terrible.
I addressed this in a later post. I don't think addons should disable progression. Changing that would benefit much more than just the super discussion, anyway."Then grab one of the many numerous addons that are released!" This disables progression, you must restart the game without addons enabled for progression to count again. You could just use the custom gamesave addon to work around this, but at that point you are opening a whole can of worms I would rather not get into involving topics such as HMS.
Sonic getting super works because Sonic is harder to play as than Tails or Knuckles. It's a fair point that the special stages themselves are now the same difficulty as anyone, but the campaign you have to play through when you're not in them is most challenging as Sonic. It seems fair to reward the player who took the extra challenge with a power boost that the others don't get, so long as this fact is made obvious. (I feel like I've said this before...)
Well, technically you do get a reward for getting all the emeralds in your playthrough! An extra stage, which right now is more NiGHTS content. The difference is you meet that goal once and have it permanently, which means you don't really gain anything for doing it as someone besides Sonic, which I'll admit probably isn't a satisfying response.
I dunno. My solution would've been another unlockable level for everyone you got the emeralds as, but when I brought up a similar proposal before, the reason against it was that they didn't want to encourage grinding the same special stages multiple times, which is fair.
Maybe a potential solution is tying the emeralds to your gamedata instead of individual saves! Then you can get the emeralds as whoever you want, then go back and play as Super Sonic without having to gather them all over again. Considering the special stages don't change as other characters, and you can replay them in NiGHTS Attack anyway... And maybe it'd even reduce the feeling of having to grind GFZ1 for tokens if players could finish off their emerald collection in another character's playthrough instead?
I addressed this in a later post. I don't think addons should disable progression. Changing that would benefit much more than just the super discussion, anyway.finally I can dab at every emblem I pick up
How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one? This would require people to find different levels to explore for getting tokens, and wouldn't affect a typical "all emeralds in one playthrough" run at all.Tying emerald collection to global saves doesn't seem the right way to go either, as it brings up a number questions that could lead to controversy. For example, how do you prevent a player from just breezing through GFZ, getting four or five emeralds, starting a new save, and getting the remaining two or three?
It also doesn't solve the problem of players who prefer to play as Tails or Knuckles (or the unlockables aside from Metal) and don't like playing as Sonic being unable to actually use the emeralds for anything after obtaining them.
So? If someone wants to do that, why go through the trouble of stopping them? Especially if it blocks out using any and all game-modifying addons. It's a single-player game, and the only rewards you can transfer over to multiplayer are a few characters that aren't a big deal to unlock "early" if the player chooses to do that.Honestly I actually do agree with addons disabling progression, aside from things like music replacements and the like. The reason for this is simple: A lot of addons also count as cheats. Progression is linked to unlockables, and unlockables are meant to be rewards. If someone really wants to cheat to obtain everything, they shouldn't be able to do so on their vanilla save file. You only cheated yourself, yada yada outdated meme.
Then how about a "Keep Emeralds" toggle on the save screen, right above the file select? That would give people the option to play through and hunt emeralds again without making it required if people just wanna keep playing through the game. See above about GFZ-spamming, which could also be disabled if you aren't keeping emeralds.Okay, so I have to agree that Emeralds should remain tied to saves. It just would feel wrong to no longer have special stages, plus the aforementioned GFZ-spamming.
The "amount" of experience super forms give you is subjective, but I disagree that "nothing should be withheld from you due to character choice". Limiting things to specific characters gives a reason to play as that character.Character Selection should be a preference thing, with nothing being withheld from you due to character choice besides things like character paths, but even then, those enhance your experience by giving each character(or at least certain subsets of characters) something new to experience yet not only giving that character something. Each character might have a different experience, but they all have the same amount of experience. Except for Super Forms.
Why ask? Let anyone use whatever mod they want. Again, it's a single player experience. They're not ruining the game for anyone else. Maybe addons could have a way to mark themselves as "should not save", just for the sake of not messing with unsuspecting players' save files in something like a randomizer mod, but I think mod authors are responsible enough to decide that for themselves.I also agree that saving with certain mods would be neat, but then you have to ask the question of which mods should be allowed, and that's probably a whole other topic entirely
Well, because you like his play style, because his super has a hover ability that's enhanced by Sonic's Thok, Because sonic is the Title Character, because of the perception that his ending is the true ending (this is usually the case with Classic Sonic Games including Mania.)To put it another way, if everyone had super, what reason would there be left to play as Sonic? If you want to challenge yourself, Amy's more of a challenge.
How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one? This would require people to find different levels to explore for getting tokens, and wouldn't affect a typical "all emeralds in one playthrough" run at all.
That's on them. You could also argue that gatekeeping certain paths behind Knuckles only is unfair to people who don't like playing as him. It's an incentive to play a different character. And considering Sonic is impossible to design exclusive paths for, having super as his incentive seems like a fair compromise.
So? If someone wants to do that, why go through the trouble of stopping them? Especially if it blocks out using any and all game-modifying addons. It's a single-player game, and the only rewards you can transfer over to multiplayer are a few characters that aren't a big deal to unlock "early" if the player chooses to do that.
Then how about a "Keep Emeralds" toggle on the save screen, right above the file select? That would give people the option to play through and hunt emeralds again without making it required if people just wanna keep playing through the game. See above about GFZ-spamming, which could also be disabled if you aren't keeping emeralds.
To put it another way, if everyone had super, what reason would there be left to play as Sonic? If you want to challenge yourself, Amy's more of a challenge.
Why ask? Let anyone use whatever mod they want. Again, it's a single player experience. They're not ruining the game for anyone else. Maybe addons could have a way to mark themselves as "should not save", just for the sake of not messing with unsuspecting players' save files in something like a randomizer mod, but I think mod authors are responsible enough to decide that for themselves.
I don't know why this topic is 13 pages long. I'm assuming it's just people bemoaning the lack of supers that is dragging on this discussion further than it ever needed to be. I had to stop reading partway through because there was just way too much.
Plus Amy being harder than Sonic to play with
Again, with Metal Sonic I can see it making sense because he's New Game + content.
Honestly this is subjective and depends on player experience. Before 2.2 came out, I was a Sonic main. As such, I actually have a lot harder time playing as Knuckles than I do playing as Sonic. I complete stages much faster as Sonic, maintain a better "flow" state as Sonic, and in general even get hit by enemies less, because his playstyle is the one I am most used to. In this regard, I actually consider Knuckles to be the hardest character. He's heavier, clunkier, and has a shorter jump. I do enjoy playing as Knuckles, but he's nowhere near as easy to play as compared to Sonic. More recently I have actually come to be more of an Amy and Metal Sonic main, since Metal Sonic is my favorite Sonic character and Amy's timing based playstyle is incredibly satisfying.
Okay, so I have to agree that Emeralds should remain tied to saves. It just would feel wrong to no longer have special stages, plus the aforementioned GFZ-spamming.
How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one? This would require people to find different levels to explore for getting tokens, and wouldn't affect a typical "all emeralds in one playthrough" run at all.
I would be interested in what the devs come up with too, but if it excludes the basic formula instead of building off of it,, then it's not a Super form, and it won't stop another Super topic from asking why everyone can't go super.
And by the way, add me to the imaginary list of people that really likes the idea of Fang selling off the emeralds to get a motorcycle.
Yes, we know the game doesn't save when modded but that's to prevent mods as cheats, and it's an unfortunate side effect of that but at this point, that's where we are.
Disagreed, on the sole basis that Amy is easier to platform with than Sonic.
Nah, that's not enough IMO. If Metal has any reason to receive special treatment over everyone besides Sonic, it's because his playstyle for whatever reason doesn't incentivize another playthrough without being able to go Super. Metal is not hard character, so the fact that that might be the case says more about how generic and unappealing his design is than anything else. And in the end, all it does is make him play even more identically to Sonic.
I strongly disagree that Knuckles is harder than Sonic, on the basis that Knuckles is also better at platforming than Sonic is, even with his reduced jump height. That being said, I also think his playstyle and routing restrictions bring enough challenge to it, and his core gameplay work off enough of the same elements as Sonic, that it might merit a reward that is at least similar in nature to Super.
The only problem with this is that all characters play homogenously in special stages, and since we have six characters, having to replay special stages that many time could get really old. You could at least argue that with the Final Demo / multiplayer format, every character goes through those stages in different ways, but in the NiGHTS format progression is generally a lot more static.
If everyone does receive a reward for collecting all emeralds, then I believe that reward should be shared. I think the best way to go about this would be to reward the player with a universal level select with all emeralds once the player reaches the good ending on one of his save files.
For the record, I don't think emeralds should be tied to global saves until all emeralds are found. But even if we were to attempt this at the local save level, I don't think it would be a good idea. If the player continues to fail special stages, then this means that with every attempt he will run out of spaces to find tokens until he eventually collects all tokens. Even if we were to reset the tokens once this happens, the issue is that then the player is forced to struggle to figure out which emerald tokens he missed, and this could take a long time if he ever finds those tokens at all.
The issue of farming the same big ring after the game is cleared is one that's present in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but if the player is desperate enough that he feels the need to do that, then that's an issue that I think we can let slide. I think we're trying too hard to create the perfect solution here, where the important thing is simply that the player feels rewarded for completing the special stages and isn't forced into doing busy-work arbitrarily.
This doesn't feel like much of a valid argument, and to the extent that it is, I'm inclined to disagree anyway. Players want to be rewarded for their hard work in collecting all the emeralds. That is the core issue here. We'll get a topic or two asking why transformations / emerald rewards are different from the mainline Sonic games, but there is a difference between someone asking this out of curiosity and asking it because they want the standard supers on their character.
Don't worry, I think this sentiment is basically unanimous. lol
Well this was more a point that if the reward isn't what's expected, we're back to were we are on super again. Just like we were in 2006!This doesn't feel like much of a valid argument, and to the extent that it is, I'm inclined to disagree anyway. Players want to be rewarded for their hard work in collecting all the emeralds. That is the core issue here. We'll get a topic or two asking why transformations / emerald rewards are different from the mainline Sonic games, but there is a difference between someone asking this out of curiosity and asking it because they want the standard supers on their character.