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Old 01-15-2020   #1
Whackjood
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Default The OLDC - and what to do in future

It's been over a month since SRB2 2.2 was released now, and it feels like almost every day someone asks on the official Discord server if the OLDC is coming back myself included. Well, instead of waiting around for an OLDC, why not become the change you want to see. I'd be willing to have an attempt at hosting something similar, but take a look.

ULDC - Unofficial Level Design Contest
It turns out judges aren't members of STJR, so whatever I host would be pretty unofficial actually. But if I were to copy the format of the OLDC of old it would be pretty simple. Every 3 months maps that have not been released on the forums would be submitted, and then compiled into a single file to be loaded, then people could write their reviews and rate the maps.

The benefit of this system is that it's straight forward. There are no restrictions and no barriers to entry, people are free to submit any of their levels for each contest. The only difference between this and the old OLDC is that I would recommend we host it every 3 months instead of every 2 months, to space it out some more and to try and avoid the burn out that the community seemed to experience during the 2.1 era. A downside to this though is that it doesn't give mappers a prompt to work from, and by default it means new mappers who have just figured out the basis of Zone Builder will be competing against experienced mappers with years of knowledge behind them.

I personally think that isn't an issue, and comparing the difference between a new modders stage and a veterans stage is a great way to learn how to improve. (I say as someone who didn't win either of the two OLDCs I entered, but learned a lot from looking at how the map that did win was well-received compared to my own! Learning what they did differently was a good experience for me.)

With that out of the way, here's a few ideas I want to open up to discussion in this thread.
Contest themes
When the topic of the OLDC comes up on the Discord, sometimes the idea of running a themed contest is also brought up instead. This could range from something as simple as "Every level must have a snow theme" to something more like "Make the most difficult level possible". I'm not sold on this idea myself, I think one of the strengths of the old OLDC was that people could just submit whatever they were working on and at it's prime that gave us a huge boon because the unrestricted creativity that no prompts gave led to some very interesting or unique levels that wouldn't have found a home otherwise. But the idea still has merit and is definitely worth discussing.

Joint Vanilla and Kart contest
This could also run in line with an Unofficial kart track contest as well. So every 3 months there would be a vanilla SRB2 contest, 3 months after that an SRB2 Kart mapping contest, then repeat. So two contests of each per year, because I wouldn't want the two to run at once myself. While I'm not entirely convinced of this idea myself, I think it's interesting so I want to throw it out for discussion while I'm here.

New mappers vs experienced mappers
As I brought up earlier in the post, I don't think this is a problem. But when talking about the idea of me hosting a new level design contest in the discord server this was brought up. So I will leave this open if people have any ideas on it. I do however think that splitting the contest between new and experienced mappers in two separate categories is a bad idea though. How do you define the difference between a new and an experienced mapper exactly is something that would need to be agreed on for this.

Prizes
The prizes for winning the ULDC would be minimal, perhaps even nothing more than a feeling of self-accomplishment. The real end game of a level design contest would be the opportunity for near-guaranteed feedback and community interaction. If anything comes out of this in an official capacity, at most I'd suggest the old prize of 'you get a golden username on the forums and a Contest Winner title until the next winner is decided'. Back in 2015 there was a prize of "The best map submitted in the year gets to be added to SRB2 Vanilla" but that just didn't happen, as the OLDC died out during that time frame, and quite frank that sounds like a silly idea anyway to me, considering that the developers were often picked out of people who made the best maps for the OLDC anyway.

Me thinking that prizes aren't necessary brings us onto the next point.

Voting
If a voting system is implemented, I think it should definitely use the system where maps in the contest were ranked in order from best to worst. Ranking the maps against each other like that seemed to work out better than a 1-10 rating system where nobody could agree on what each number meant. But the best part about the OLDC as far as feedback goes was the reviews, so I don't think voting really matters that much. I honestly wouldn't mind voting being gone entirely and I think making the ULDC more about a community mapping showcase more than a competition would be great as well. It means the players get a collection of maps to play every few months, and the mappers get guaranteed feedback and community interaction, which is what the OLDC boiled down to in the end anyway.

In summary, I want there to be some feedback on the following
  1. Contest themes, whether or not they are appropriate and if so what themes would be a good idea.
  2. Is running a Kart contest between the Vanilla SRB2 contests also a good idea
  3. New mappers vs experienced mappers, is this worth doing. If so, how would the two categories be decided, how does someone be considered 'new' or 'experienced' exactly?
  4. Voting to decide a winner, is it necessary? Or should the focus just be on writing reviews and having a community discussion about the maps released each time this rolls around?
I think so long as people come in with the expectation that they won't be getting maps that are on par with the incredibly high standards of 2.2's single player campaign, this should be fine. Right now interest in SRB2 mapping seems high after all, and provided no forum staff tell me cut this out I'll be interested in trying to host something like this after getting some feedback and having a discussion about it.

So let me have it.
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Old 01-15-2020   #2
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I'm very into this idea. Ever since OLDC's cancellation in 2015, it felt like SOMETHING was missing in the community. Sure, SUGOI and its sequels brought a really fresh take on the table, but it didn't have the same...vibe? I guess??? That one was more of a leisurely stroll, while the OLDC itself is sort of a gallery exhibition, where you want to be at your best.

That being said, here are my takes on the few ideas presented.

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Contest themes
I would be willing to go along with this, provided the themes aren't too restrictive. Making an OLDC around "every map is snow" is not only overly monotone for the mappers, but it would be equally as boring/drab for the playerbase. Having more abstract concepts, however, could be very interesting. If I may borrow a page from SMBX's Make a Good Level Contests, keywords such as "Place, Enemy, Adjective" provided to each competitor, or something more vague like "make levels without using Lua" should definitely be considered.

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Joint Vanilla and Kart contest
I'm not much of a Kart fan, so I don't have strong opinions on this, though I would rather have them 2 months by 2 months if this idea is accepted. 4 months should still be enough to make a map, right?

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New mappers vs experienced mappers
Hard "No." from me. Experience is very ill-defined. Many people can make amazing first maps, while some people (me) can barely scrape together something workable after 4 years in the community. And especially since this contest's biggest reward is the feedback each map will get, not being able to win against "the big boys" is not a problem.

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Prizes
Agree. As mentioned earlier, the prize is the interactions you get from entering. Sure, having a golden name would be kinda cute, but if that's your sole incentive for entering a contest, then I may have to ask "Why?".

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Voting
I'm on the side of keeping voting entirely optional, the only requirement being that if someone votes on one map, they vote on all maps. You have a certain order that you like the maps in? Great, love to hear about it! But if you don't, that's perfectly acceptable too. If anything, I'd rather make feedback absolutely mandatory. Helping participants improve should be the community's goal, if possible.

So yeah, I'm definitely down for the idea. Hope it shapes up to be something of a "Casual OLDC".
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Old 01-15-2020   #3
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It occurs to me now that if contest themes are implemented. Then it could alternate between a contest with a theme, and a contest without a theme restriction the following time. And repeat. Which might just get the best of both worlds there.
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Old 01-15-2020   #4
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1. As you already said, one contest per year could be themed, and the other not.

2. Yes, a Kart contest between Vanilla contests.

3. The only separation I think might be valuable is a separate prize for first-time mappers, similar to how The Game Awards has a separate prize for an indie studio's first game, or how some book awards have a category for an author's first novel. It might inspire first-time mappers to enter the contest knowing that they have a chance a to win some award.

4. Yes, there should be voting. The fun of competition is that someone wins!
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Old 01-15-2020   #5
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Said on Discord that I'd help you out running this if there was anything I could do, but repeatin' it publically so people know. I can't take point on anything cuz life is A Thing, but even "just shitposting in a server about theme concepts that'd be fun to keep it original" at bare minimum would be something I'd be happy to be in the loop on.

It's funny, though - I'm a Kart developer but I'm completely uninterested in custom Kart maps. Perhaps because there's so many of them already, perhaps because I've been spoiled by the main (plus fickle hearts) selection and don't need to seek anything extra out. As such, I probably would take the Kart months off (unless if they were battle, but then all the map creators would take those months off instead). :V
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Old 01-16-2020   #6
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On/off themes could be fun. Perhaps the community could hold a vote for the theme ahead of time!
It would be nice if the prize could be something more than a gold name. Perhaps winners do get gold names, but the person who makes the overall best map in a year could be sent some sort of physical prize, like some Sonic merch, an article of clothing, or a Steam gift card.
I have nothing else to add at the moment.
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Old 01-16-2020   #7
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My worry with bringing back mapping contests is that previous contests had a big problem with toxicity from some voters, who would make it a point to tear apart entries (especially competitors) rather than focus on constructive feedback. I say this as someone who was a big part of that problem.


Things like SUGOI are nice because the lack of pure competition makes the atmosphere around it friendlier, and it also helps that the final product has a bit of structure and progression that gives the pack some staying power, as opposed to OLDC packs which were for the most part completely ignored once voting is over. It does suffer from a lack of people giving feedback, though, since there's no good structure to encourage it.


I've thought about a structure where people submitted maps like a SUGOI event, and then got broken up into (hopefully, roughly even) teams that were tasked with putting those maps together into packs that would be put against each other in contest form. It'd give the mappers a mandatory period where they critique each other's maps and improve on them (that last point is missing from all other contest formats done so far), and also add a bit of competition aspect while encouraging some creativity into putting a small pack together. The main problem with that, of course, is that managing those teams would be a logistical nightmare, and it'd require long-running commitment that would be prone to mid-event dropouts causing undue pressure on the rest of their team.
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Old 01-16-2020   #8
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Originally Posted by SeventhSentinel View Post
On/off themes could be fun. Perhaps the community could hold a vote for the theme ahead of time!
That's actually a very good idea, if on/off themes go ahead I will probably have a vote for the next theme running on the side during each non-themed contest then.
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It would be nice if the prize could be something more than a gold name. Perhaps winners do get gold names, but the person who makes the overall best map in a year could be sent some sort of physical prize, like some Sonic merch, an article of clothing, or a Steam gift card.
As funny as it would be to send someone a trophy of SRB1 Sonic for, say, winning a contest themed around "Make a map based off of an SRB1 level". I'm going to say its a hard no on physical prizes. That runs into issues of what prizes to pick, acquiring the winner's personal information to send it and unpredictable monetary costs (The winner might be in another country to me, adding a shipping or import cost on top of whatever I get them). I'll put some thought into a small digital prize but don't expect much if anything.
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My worry with bringing back mapping contests is that previous contests had a big problem with toxicity from some voters, who would make it a point to tear apart entries (especially competitors) rather than focus on constructive feedback. I say this as someone who was a big part of that problem.
I might be naive in thinking as a community we've moved on from that in the past 5 years since we last hosted a level design contest. But you are right in that the competition part really should be secondary to the aspect of getting together and just having fun mapping, so I'll propose this:

During each contest, there could be a separate thread at the same time called 'Contest WIP and discussion: Feb-April 2020' for example. Where the very specific intention is to see what other people have been working on and actively help and encourage them. The idea here would at least be to try and foster community interaction and goodwill by trying to prod them in the direction of helping each other out instead of viewing them as just competitors. This is a big part of why I wondered if prizes and voting were even necessary for my opening post.
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Things like SUGOI are nice because the lack of pure competition makes the atmosphere around it friendlier, and it also helps that the final product has a bit of structure and progression that gives the pack some staying power, as opposed to OLDC packs which were for the most part completely ignored once voting is over.
I think part of what made the OLDC become ignored after voting was their discoverability, once voting was over they were somewhat out of the way in their own thread and several of the contestants would just post their entries in releases afterward so they could be found and played again.

One idea I thought of last night was that contests could be bundled together and released as a releases pack after the contest was over. Or perhaps after a certain number of contests have passed. For example, after a year's worth of contests I could compile the single-player entries together into a single file and release them as a sort of level pack to get around this problem. (This would not have the production values of SUGOI though! If I were to do this, it would just be a simple pack where the levels load in the order of theme or difficulty. TehRealSalt did an incredible job with the SUGOI trilogy but that is completely beyond my ability!)
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I've thought about a structure where people submitted maps like a SUGOI event, and then got broken up into (hopefully, roughly even) teams that were tasked with putting those maps together into packs that would be put against each other in contest form. It'd give the mappers a mandatory period where they critique each other's maps and improve on them (that last point is missing from all other contest formats done so far), and also add a bit of competition aspect while encouraging some creativity into putting a small pack together. The main problem with that, of course, is that managing those teams would be a logistical nightmare, and it'd require long-running commitment that would be prone to mid-event dropouts causing undue pressure on the rest of their team
To be fair, that could make for an interesting contest theme. I wouldn't want to do that long term, but if we can think of a way to mitigate the trouble that is mid-event dropouts or people not doing the fair share of their teams' work it's something worth considering as a one-off for this sort-of-OLDC I'm proposing.

Actually, this is shaping up to be less and less competition focused. I might need to think of a better name at some point huh. toaster suggested "Joodge the maps" last night though and that was pretty good.
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Old 01-16-2020   #9
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I think a theme could be great if pulled off correctly. I think if there were themes they should be vague enough to not make all the maps seem similar but similar enough to still feel connected. Something like "Make a level based off of another game's level." or "Dark toned levels" so all the submitted levels don't look the same

Personally I'm not a big Kart player but if people want a contest for that then I don't see why not.


Separate categories for how experienced the mapper isn't the best idea. Skill and stuff is developed at different paces. People could consider me experienced because I have made tons of maps, but I also could be considered newish because I haven't made recent maps or very good maps.



I think voting is important. I like the little reviews too but the 0-10 scale works best. It might be good to try and define what a 0 is, what a 5 is, what a 10 is ,etc. so there is some sort of basis for the community to base their vote off of.
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Old 01-16-2020   #10
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If you're looking to encourage map creation, I don't think the OLDC really works as a format anymore because making a map is just so much more involved than it used to be. There's a reason why most of the big entries took more than 2 months and were just entered in when they were done.

If you're looking for a "contest" design that might be fun, one idea that was passed around a while ago was making a speed mapping contest instead of focusing on making big, epic things. Give entrants a custom object to build around at the start of the contest and give everyone a small period of time, say 8 hours, to make something using it. Nobody's going to have time to refine anything and it'd be a simple test of how cleverly the author can use the object and come up with something quick but fun.
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Old 01-16-2020   #11
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the time limit thing sounds good, but I would give a week instead of 8 hours to account for people who have work or school.
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Old 01-16-2020   #12
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I wonder if there's inspiration to be taken from the Cacowards for this.
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Old 01-16-2020   #13
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I have serious reservations about the "level contest" format. Its focus on mapping is antiquated to what we are capable of doing with the game now. It also naturally assumes that people will be creating standalone levels in X amount of time, when many of our best level designers require months or even years to create a quality level. The reason we had to cancel OLDC in the first place is because there was such low turnout, and I think the atomized structure of the contest contributed greatly to this.

It makes far more sense to incentivize group structures, as these would allow us as a community to combine the strengths of individuals to create a quality mod much faster and much more consistently than anyone is capable of doing on their own. While SUGOI is still a little bit more indivualized as far as level creation goes, its emphasis on everyone pitching into a unified campaign means that there is a much greater sense of community focus, and I'd say this at least partially explains its consistently astronomical submissions turnout with every successive iteration of the series.

This is not to say that there isn't value to allowing people to do their own thing if they want, but at the same time, it is very strange to me that we consistently try to organize group projects that don't actually involve group development beyond top-level contest organizing and external community feedback. I understand that this would require us to have people who are confident at managing smaller team projects, but at this stage of our community's lifespan I imagine we have enough people who would be willing and able to step up to those responsibilities.
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Old 01-16-2020   #14
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Well, with the experience I have with taking part in other level making contests, here's my thoughts about it:

Timeframe:
I would say that maybe two months would be better if a contest is themed. Although I wouldn't object to it being a three month long thing.

Contest Themes:
Most level making contests I've taken part in have had themes to them, so I would say that would be a good idea to consider. Although maybe have two potential themes which can be chosen between so as to give a bit of variety when it comes to Vanilla maps - one for SP maps, and one for MP maps.

Joint Contest:
Personally, I feel that the UKTC would be its own thing seperate from the ULDC, but having them run in stages - where Kart and Vanilla takes turns - would be a good idea. Although another idea is that the ULDC during one period is for SP maps and Match/CTF maps, and then the next period would have Kart maps and maybe a Vanilla Circuit contest with a similar theme.

New vs Experienced Mappers:
I also agree that it may be a bad idea to have new mappers be in their own catergory. Unless voting is scrapped and it's just reviews on the maps.

Prizes:
I would also agree to this. Although I would maybe add in the ability for the winner to 'feature' a single map pack or mod they had created, having it pinned until the end of the next ULDC or UKTC. Other than that, just bragging rights and the potential for STJr / Kart Krew to approach you and maybe take you onboard if you do well enough is fine by me.

Voting:
I would say that the ranking system could be implemented, but I also feel like there could be a few Judges who play through each stage and give points based on a few factors. This would contribute maybe 40% of the final score, with the remaining 60% coming from the community votes. IF the rating system was reintroduced for voting, I would say that scores of 3 or lower, or 7 and higher, need feedback to explain why the voter gave that score.
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Old 01-16-2020   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
If you're looking to encourage map creation, I don't think the OLDC really works as a format anymore because making a map is just so much more involved than it used to be. There's a reason why most of the big entries took more than 2 months and were just entered in when they were done.
I don't think maps necessarily need to be at that exceptionally high standard though. While it's fantastic when people do make very high-quality maps that took several months to develop, I really don't think that should be considered the average standard that is to be expected on everyone's map. The SUGOI trilogy encouraged levels to be made in under a month and there were some fantastic levels to come out of that pack after all.

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If you're looking for a "contest" design that might be fun, one idea that was passed around a while ago was making a speed mapping contest instead of focusing on making big, epic things. Give entrants a custom object to build around at the start of the contest and give everyone a small period of time, say 8 hours, to make something using it. Nobody's going to have time to refine anything and it'd be a simple test of how cleverly the author can use the object and come up with something quick but fun.
A fun idea, but I think there's enough issues that come up when considering timezones and trying to catch a day when everyone who wants to be involved is free to make me question the practicality of that. Of course, we could just ask people to take no more than 8 hours and just trust them not to cheat, and give them a week total to make the map instead, which could work out if nobody takes longer and just claims they only spent 8 hours working on the map instead.

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I wonder if there's inspiration to be taken from the Cacowards for this.
Yes but maybe not for a project like I'm suggesting here. I think we could do something similar to the Cacoawards, but it would be best suited as awards given out to mods that have been put in releases over the past year instead in my opinion.

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It makes far more sense to incentivize group structures, as these would allow us as a community to combine the strengths of individuals to create a quality mod much faster and much more consistently than anyone is capable of doing on their own. While SUGOI is still a little bit more indivualized as far as level creation goes, its emphasis on everyone pitching into a unified campaign means that there is a much greater sense of community focus, and I'd say this at least partially explains its consistently astronomical submissions turnout with every successive iteration of the series.
I was hoping to introduce community focus with a thread dedicated to posting WIPs and receiving feedback and general discussion about what people were working on in a given contest. But that still runs into the issue of it being a collection of individually made maps in the end. Did you have a specific way in mind to get people together for group projects like you are suggesting here? Because I'm not entirely sure how to go about achieving what you want to have happen right now.

Also thank you to everyone who's responded to my points in the opening post so far, it's given me some more direction on this project.
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Old 01-16-2020   #16
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I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I think adding multiple different virtual trophies for different categories to the Contest, much like the Sonic Hacking Contest, would be a really good idea. Like there would be trophies for Best Music, Best Scripting, Best Boss Battle, Best Visual Design, Best Level Design, and Best Overall. Doing stuff like this would allow for more winners, and as such encourage more people to join the Contest.
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Old 01-16-2020   #17
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A Steam gift card for the winner would be a nice idea to motivate people to participate. :)

...if we're keeping the competitive aspect. If not, and you're going the "the power of frien-- i mean the reviews were the prize all along" route, there should probably be some manner of incentive for people to spend time reviewing the maps. I don't know what it could be myself, but if the idea is to get as much feedback and interaction as possible, then there should be something to reel in people other than the ones that would review the maps regardless. Also, in the past, CobaltBW mentioned having a Lua category - that's maybe overkill, but it could be an idea for a theme.

And +1 to the idea of bundling together entries and releasing them as a pack. I'm sure it'd get more people to play them as a single "2020 ULDC SP levels pack" file rather than a whole bunch of individual WADs.
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Old 01-16-2020   #18
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If you're looking for a "contest" design that might be fun, one idea that was passed around a while ago was making a speed mapping contest instead of focusing on making big, epic things.
I like the idea of speed mapping as a potential category
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Old 01-16-2020   #19
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It's not really possible but an in-game level browser for would be cool to easily try out as many levels as possible for the contest. That would require some pretty extensive source code changes though.
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Old 01-16-2020   #20
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It's not really possible
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That would require some pretty extensive source code changes though.
Actually...
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