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Old 01-08-2020   #6281
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Originally Posted by Apollyon Woman View Post
I am well aware that a thread regarding the subject was recently locked so I hope I am not breaching any rules by bringing it up lightly, but until some consensus can be reached by the developers regarding the use of Super forms, perhaps there could be a console command for multiplayer servers to allow anyone to transform regardless of character. Sure, you'd still be locked out in singleplayer, but for those who mostly play in multiplayer (such as myself) it'd be much easier than having everyone install a wad to get it done.
Im gonna go ahead and group mine with this one. I personally like this idea.
I dont think its asking for too much. I have a suggestion of my own. Im posting it again because nobody responded to it. Why not just give everyone their super forms until yall figure something out? If you really want the pro supers to shut up so badly, then this would be a good way to do it imo. I think super form blandness is such a small reason to lock away such a big thing. Plus, if there really is a silent majority of people who dont want supers, they will likely show their gripes with the universal supers. If you see anything wrong with my argument, let me know.
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Old 01-08-2020   #6282
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We're not moving the super discussion over here. Further posts about it will be infracted.
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Old 01-10-2020   #6283
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soundorg.x and soundorg.y should be exposed to Lua's sector_t list if they aren't already.

For context, the following C code isn't replicatable in Lua:
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sector_t *actionsector;
thwompx = actionsector->soundorg.x;
thwompy = actionsector->soundorg.y;
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Old 01-11-2020   #6284
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For 2.2.1 or 2.3 (assuming it gets released): watertime and spacetime S_SKIN values. These two values control how long a character can survive under water or in space respectively. For example, if spacetime was set to 35 and watertime was set to 700, the player could be in space for one second and in water for 20.


flytime S_SKIN value: Specifies how long a player can fly for (would work for flying, swimming, gliding, and floating (to make it not completely powerful)).


jumpheight S_SKIN value: Not to be confused for jumpfactor, which modifies the height of a player's jump. This will change how tall a player is when jumping (assuming SF_MULTIABILITY is set), or it could just be merged with spinheight.
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Old 01-12-2020   #6285
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Some flags I think would be useful for custom characters are ones to turn off drowning or certain kinds of damaging sectors for them. This would easily let modders create characters who can breathe underwater, or who can natively walk on lava without an elemental shield, or even things like characters who can't just walk on lava, but can swim (or even just sink and walk around in) in it (separate from being immune to it to represent characters who are so tough they can endure swimming in lava for a limited amount of time, using the same basic code as drowning except taking damage at the end instead of dying).


(yes, I know that lava is basically solid for the purpose of going through it. it's a video game!)


Also this is bizarrely specific but I'd love a "scalding water" sector effect that makes water blocks damage characters (except those already immune to heat) on contact but which can be walked/swam through with the help of a heat-resistant shield, unlike lava. That would be useful for a level that takes place in, say, hot springs/onsen, or the cooling system of an Eggman-themed level, etc.


(I'd also suggest a "freezing water" effect for water so cold it hurts, but there isn't a shield themed around ice that could protect against it in SRB2)

Last edited by Frostav; 01-12-2020 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 01-12-2020   #6286
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(I'd also suggest a "freezing water" effect for water so cold it hurts, but there isn't a shield themed around ice that could protect against it in SRB2)
Flame shield or Waterflame shield should probably do the trick, countering the cold of the water with the heat of the flames.
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Old 01-13-2020   #6287
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a Stronger Jump for Mario Mode.

A way to switch between Final demo lava, 2.0 era Lava, and Current lava. Some levels ported from the past depend on old behavior or old collisions
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Last edited by glaber; 01-15-2020 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020   #6288
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I would love to see an option to ignore super music and continue to play the current stage's regular music, maybe as an ON/OFF option in the sound options or something. I really love the game's soundtrack and having to use -default every time I decide to transform kind of takes me out of it, It was nice to listen to super music for the first few times but I keep trying to not transform just because I want to continue listening to the current zone's track.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6289
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Here is my wishlist and suggestion for 2.3 and 3.0. For 2.3, add two more zones for the main game. One normal zone and one zone for super sonic. For 3.0, add new game+. You keep all your emeralds but your lives and continues reset to 3 lives and 1 continues. New game+ will have longer and harder redesign zones. Bosses are also harder. That's my suggestion and wishlist for 2.3 and 3.0.

Last edited by Brainzshake; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:31 PM.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6290
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There are already two zones planned to come later on in the game, around Red Volcano (I think both after it actually).
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6291
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Now i'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but the only thing i want to ask for 2.2.1 is for the bridge section at the end of CEZ1 to be disabled in multiplayer, i genuinely dislike how it's forced for every player to be actively present, wouldn't it be a lot more convenient to have the other exit when people fail to make it across be open instead?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6292
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For every powerup to respawn in NiGHTS when you do a loop around the stage. In my opinion it would be great.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6293
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When you get all the emblems, you get the option to enable super forms for everyone that isnt sonic or metal. Maybe instead of having to enable it in thr pandoras box each time you start a file, it can be put in the extras and be toggle able with a option for yes or no.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6294
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Metal Sonic is somewhat overpowered in the current version on account of his hover ability, which allows him to skip vast portions of levels without fear of falling. I do actually believe this could be kept, but I do have a few ideas to make Metal more balanced without taking away too much from the "overpowered reward" feel to him.

As I mentioned in the now locked Super Forms thread, it makes sense for base Metal to drop like current Super Sonic instead of just falling slowly when his speed drops too much while hovering. As he lacks a thok, this would force players to be more careful while using him as recklessly slamming full speed into a wall while hovering could easily result in falling into a bottomless pit. This would also add incentive to collecting the Emeralds as him, as the better hover would be barred behind using his Super Form. Overall, this change would allow Metal to have that "Wow this is broken" feel of skipping over large parts of the levels without going too far with it.

My other idea pertains to Metal Sonic's breathing, or rather lack of breathing. Metal Sonic is a robot, which is expertly conveyed through his unique short-circuit animation when "drowning" and "suffocating" underwater and in a vacuum. However, it doesn't really make sense for him to be able to take in air bubbles to just magically undo whatever damage is being done to his internal hardware. As such, here are my thoughts:

While underwater, Metal could have quadruple the time before his countdown starts ticking down to him "drowning". The downside is he can't take in air bubbles, so he's still encouraged to progress through water sections quickly. The only way to feel more safe would be to take advantage of the infinite breath provided via shields such as the bubble shield.

While in a vacuum, he could have double the time on his countdown timer, dropping from 10 to 0 instead of 5. To balance this off, standing inside of a blue safe zone or back into the atmosphere rich environment of the level only causes his counter to slowly tick back up to 10 as his internal systems are working on repairing whatever internal damage has been done, forcing the player to choose whether to play it slow and safe (Much slower than as other characters) or rush through vacuum sections as quickly as possible.

Overall, I feel like these two changes to his breathing would make him feel much more unique compared to the other characters and would be consistent with the fact that Metal Sonic is, in fact, a robot and not just a shiny creature that sparks up when it can't breath.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6295
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
While underwater, Metal could have quadruple the time before his countdown starts ticking down to him "drowning". The downside is he can't take in air bubbles, so he's still encouraged to progress through water sections quickly. The only way to feel more safe would be to take advantage of the infinite breath provided via shields such as the bubble shield.
I like the thought behind the idea, but this would make it unreasonably difficult for Metal to beat Azure Temple.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6296
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I haven't seen anyone beat ATZ as Metal in under 60 seconds so yeah. I do agree it is a bit silly that Metal still needs air bubbles after the devs went the extra mile to show that Metal doesn't actually drown, but I just file that under "it is videogame"

Calling Metal "overpowered" when he's in the same game as Tails is a bit much, methinks. Though for my money, Metal should have the mid-air boost mode charge ability from Katmint's script. It fits him so much better.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
Metal Sonic is somewhat overpowered in the current version on account of his hover ability, which allows him to skip vast portions of levels without fear of falling.
Tails and Knuckles both are able to skip large swathes of level design even more frequently than Metal, due to the fact that they have the ability to ascend. The only other difference between Glide&Climb/Fly and Hover is that Hover allows Metal Sonic to stay in midair indefinitely without the player grounding himself -- even still, Knuckles can effectively do the same thing if he has a wall surface to cling onto (which tends to be the case).

You could argue that the hover stacks with his dashmode ability, but then, still, Metal Sonic lags behind Sonic and Tails when it comes to speedrun times. This could be because his meta is underdeveloped, but if he's as broken as I've heard people say he is, then the records have yet to reflect this.

This raises the question: if some characters can skip more platforming than Metal, and some characters are more effective speedrunners than Metal, then what metric are we measuring Metal Sonic's character balance with that would implicate the hover ability?

The one area where I have seen Metal Sonic do more work than most other characters is in CTF, and the reason for this is simple: it's not because he's as fast as Sonic, or as oppressive in the air as Tails, but because he is adaptable. You could also argue that being one of the only two characters which can go super is also a big boost to his playtime aggregate in coop netgames, particularly since the innate hover makes him far less of a risky choice for players with high latencies. Those are really where his balance issues start and end, however; I think it could be argued that Metal Sonic is one of the more balanced characters in the game alongside Knuckles. His current design essentially makes him "jack of all trades" character with good speedrunning, platforming, and combat tools, yet not necessarily being the most powerful character in any one category.



I'll note that I'm not necessarily arguing against changing the hover ability, but it's important to clarify what we're intending to achieve here. Are we intending to make Metal Sonic less powerful, or do we simply want him to be more challenging and/or interesting to play? We could, for instance, aim to make his hover harder to use, while also making tweaks to the dashmode to make more accessible or less dependent on the level design. After all, it is a bit ironic to me that Metal Sonic's gameplay was birthed as an attempt to make a speedrunning alternative to Sonic's gameplay, while Tails' buffs resulted in both of them being outperformed.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6298
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I like the thought behind the idea, but this would make it unreasonably difficult for Metal to beat Azure Temple.
I would say the best solution to that would just be to give Metal his own path entirely for Azure Temple, taking advantage of the fact that he can hover over vast bottomless pits. There could be very small areas between sections that aren't entirely underwater, allow Metal to reset his timer. The general design mentality would need to be that Knuckles can't attach himself to the type of walls lining Metal's path, and the pits are too long for Tails to swim across.

An alternative solution would simply be to add in a small area like this near the start for Metal to grab a shield that allows him to "breath" underwater indefinitely that the other characters can't reach. Then the challenge would be to beat the level as Metal without losing the shield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
Tails and Knuckles both are able to skip large swathes of level design even more frequently than Metal, due to the fact that they have the ability to ascend. The only other difference between Glide&Climb/Fly and Hover is that Hover allows Metal Sonic to stay in midair indefinitely without the player grounding himself -- even still, Knuckles can effectively do the same thing if he has a wall surface to cling onto (which tends to be the case).

You could argue that the hover stacks with his dashmode ability, but then, still, Metal Sonic lags behind Sonic and Tails when it comes to speedrun times. This could be because his meta is underdeveloped, but if he's as broken as I've heard people say he is, then the records have yet to reflect this.

This raises the question: if some characters can skip more platforming than Metal, and some characters are more effective speedrunners than Metal, then what metric are we measuring Metal Sonic's character balance that would implicate the hover ability?

The one area where I have seen Metal Sonic do more work than most other characters is in CTF, and the reason for this is simple: it's not because he's as fast as Sonic, or as oppressive in the air as Tails, but because he is adaptable. You could also argue that being one of the only two characters which can go super is also a big boost to his playtime aggregate in coop netgames, particularly since the innate hover makes him far less of a risky choice for players with high latencies. Those are really where his balance issues start and end, however; I think it could be argued that Metal Sonic is one of the more balanced characters in the game alongside Knuckles. His current design essentially makes him "jack of all trades" character with good speedrunning, platforming, and combat tools, yet not necessarily being the most powerful character in any one category.



I'll note that I'm not necessarily arguing against changing the hover ability, but it's important to clarify what we're intending to achieve here. Are we intending to make Metal Sonic less powerful, or do we simply want him to be more challenging and/or interesting to play? We could, for instance, aim to make his hover harder to use, while also making tweaks to the dashmode to make more accessible or less dependent on the level design. After all, it is a bit ironic to me that Metal Sonic's gameplay was birthed as an attempt to make a speedrunning alternative to Metal's gameplay, while Tails' buffs resulted in both of them being outperformed.
The reason I feel Metal's glide is overpowered is because while Tails has more vertical mobility than him, Tails grows tired after a few seconds of flying and as such has a strict limit to how far he can travel like this. Metal has no such limitation. Knuckles loses height while gliding over time. He can counter this weakness by latching onto walls as you said, but he cannot do this with every wall. Metal has none of these restrictions. As long as he can manage to reach a height somehow, he can keep it for as long as the player needs him to provided they don't lose too much speed. Even if they do, they are only punished a little bit by him losing a small amount of his height.

This effectively makes Metal's playstyle dominate over anyone else in the game in terms of general usefulness in the highest number of situations. He struggles heavily to gain as much height as Tails in most situations, but dominates in every other area, at least in regards to safety and ease of progression if not always in regards to record attack speeds.

However, I am not entirely against this. To even play as Metal, you need to clear the entire campaign at least once. As such, the superior mobility the glide gives you feels properly earned as anything it allows you to easily skip, you probably had to do the first time through legit. That's why the only major balance change I would make to it would be to limit the slow fall to his Super Form.

Overall my mindset isn't so much to necessarily make Metal less powerful so much as make him less safe, or in some situations just more unique. I actually do quite enjoy the hover as it exists now, abusing it can be a lot of fun. However, I feel like it can sometimes make things too easy due to the safety it provides, which in turn makes Metal a bit less fun to play once the novelty wears off. Skipping huge sections of AGZ as Metal with little risk for example is hilarious the first few times you play through taking different pathways, but after a while I would really rather just go through as Tails or Knuckles or if I feel especially brave, Amy.

Levels like DSZ and ERZ are where my mentality shifts away from focusing on making him less safe and more on making him more unique and in line with the concept of him being robotic. Part of the mentality is if you are going to acknowledge it with an aesthetic difference, you might as well commit fully and go full dive into it by making him play like a robot too. The other part of the mentality is that by doing this, Metal would become more unique as a standalone character because nobody else would react to these situations like he does.

Being a robot, it makes sense that he doesn't need to breath. However, it also makes sense he wasn't actually designed to function indefinitely underwater or in a vacuum, and starts to suffer internal damages as a result. His durability in these situations would likely be higher than that of the common fleshy character that needs to breath, but on the other hand all the fleshy characters need to do to recover is take a breath and they can hold it, while Metal is unable to do this. That was the concept I built my suggestion around, being careful not to make him too overpowered by introducing a drawback to his longer breath times while also being careful to make that drawback something that makes sense for him as a robot. There could be other ideas that would work better and still remain consistent with the robotic theme, but I feel like aside from situations like the current version of ATZ I took a pretty solid stab at the idea (Actually I completely forgot about ATZ when initially writing down my idea, how silly of me).
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6299
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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
Tails and Knuckles both are able to skip large swathes of level design even more frequently than Metal, due to the fact that they have the ability to ascend. The only other difference between Glide&Climb/Fly and Hover is that Hover allows Metal Sonic to stay in midair indefinitely without the player grounding himself -- even still, Knuckles can effectively do the same thing if he has a wall surface to cling onto (which tends to be the case).
Knuckles has to jump (lowest jump in the game), find a climbable surface, jump, start gliding, and still loses height at a consistent rate while doing so. Ending glide at any point forces Knuckles to start back at 0 speed.

Metal Sonic has to find a position higher than the rest of the level, jump, start hovering, and the level is effectively over. The speed at which you lose height is negligible, the air-control allows you to maintain a constant rate of speed with no loss, and is even coupled with gaining more speed on landing.

Playing as Tails requires you to mash the jump button constantly, manage your height, and has limited use.

All three of these characters can spindash.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6300
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
The reason I feel Metal's glide is overpowered is because while Tails has more vertical mobility than him, Tails grows tired after a few seconds of flying and as such has a strict limit to how far he can travel like this. Metal has no such limitation. Knuckles loses height while gliding over time. He can counter this weakness by latching onto walls as you said, but he cannot do this with every wall. Metal has none of these restrictions. As long as he can manage to reach a height somehow, he can keep it for as long as the player needs him to provided they don't lose too much speed. Even if they do, they are only punished a little bit by him losing a small amount of his height.
Metal's restriction is that he must maintain momentum. Depending on the situation, losing just a little bit of altitude can be a death warrant since Metal is not able to regain height through his ability. If we want to argue that this type of advantage can be polarizing, we can, but it's hardly any more or less polarizing than a character that is able to hang onto walls indefinitely or a character that can take diagonal-upward shortcuts through huge chunks of levels.



Quote:
This effectively makes Metal's playstyle dominate over anyone else in the game in terms of general usefulness in the highest number of situations. He struggles heavily to gain as much height as Tails in most situations, but dominates in every other area, at least in regards to safety and ease of progression if not always in regards to record attack speeds.
I agree that Metal Sonic is generally useful, but I would consider Tails to be more generally useful in the full scale of the game due to the fact that he is a more powerful speedrunner and has more opportunities to skip segments of levels in the main campaign. I would sooner nerf Tails before I touch Metal. Sonic also appears to be stronger than Metal in the aggregate when it comes to record attack.

Quote:
However, I am not entirely against this. To even play as Metal, you need to clear the entire campaign at least once. As such, the superior mobility the glide gives you feels properly earned as anything it allows you to easily skip, you probably had to do the first time through legit. That's why the only major balance change I would make to it would be to limit the slow fall to his Super Form.

Overall my mindset isn't so much to necessarily make Metal less powerful so much as make him less safe, or in some situations just more unique. I actually do quite enjoy the hover as it exists now, abusing it can be a lot of fun. However, I feel like it can sometimes make things too easy due to the safety it provides, which in turn makes Metal a bit less fun to play once the novelty wears off. Skipping huge sections of AGZ as Metal with little risk for example is hilarious the first few times you play through taking different pathways, but after a while I would really rather just go through as Tails or Knuckles or if I feel especially brave, Amy.
In fairness to your point, Metal is not the "expert character" that he is intended to play as. In fact, he is relatively easy to play. I think the reason why he feels especially powerful in the hands of most players is because his ability is one of the few platforming tools that provides instant feedback, lacks many of the use-restrictions that other characters have (most characters lack multiability, for instance), and doesn't break the flow of gameplay. I think the actual power of this ability is a bit overstated, since the majority of the current campaign has players scaling heights more often than making descents. He is undoubtedly a good character, but I think his issue is less about power balance and more about skill-indexing. I think giving Metal's hover Super Sonic-style penalties for losing speed would probably be a good counterbalance to his ease of use, since it would give floating a more prominent element of risk.


Quote:
Levels like DSZ and ERZ are where my mentality shifts away from focusing on making him less safe and more on making him more unique and in line with the concept of him being robotic. Part of the mentality is if you are going to acknowledge it with an aesthetic difference, you might as well commit fully and go full dive into it by making him play like a robot too. The other part of the mentality is that by doing this, Metal would become more unique as a standalone character because nobody else would react to these situations like he does.

Being a robot, it makes sense that he doesn't need to breath. However, it also makes sense he wasn't actually designed to function indefinitely underwater or in a vacuum, and starts to suffer internal damages as a result. His durability in these situations would likely be higher than that of the common fleshy character that needs to breath, but on the other hand all the fleshy characters need to do to recover is take a breath and they can hold it, while Metal is unable to do this. That was the concept I built my suggestion around, being careful not to make him too overpowered by introducing a drawback to his longer breath times while also being careful to make that drawback something that makes sense for him as a robot. There could be other ideas that would work better and still remain consistent with the robotic theme, but I feel like aside from situations like the current version of ATZ I took a pretty solid stab at the idea (Actually I completely forgot about ATZ when initially writing down my idea, how silly of me).
I'm a little wary that designing Metal to be specifically better in low-gravity and water sections might make his advantages more polarizing depending on the level -- but considering that Metal currently doesn't have any alternate paths to call his own, perhaps there is some merit to the idea....

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Originally Posted by Chrome View Post
Knuckles has to jump (lowest jump in the game), find a climbable surface, jump, start gliding, and still loses height at a consistent rate while doing so. Ending glide at any point forces Knuckles to start back at 0 speed.

Metal Sonic has to find a position higher than the rest of the level, jump, start hovering, and the level is effectively over. The speed at which you lose height is negligible, the air-control allows you to maintain a constant rate of speed with no loss, and is even coupled with gaining more speed on landing.

Playing as Tails requires you to mash the jump button constantly, manage your height, and has limited use.

All three of these characters can spindash.
You put in a lot of effort to make playing Knuckles sound like pulling teeth, but you failed to mention that Knuckles has a way to naturally scale heights with his ability and Metal doesn't. This is an odd omission, considering your very next point hinges on Metal finding the highest vantage point to... skip the level? Which he can't do anyway because literally none of our levels are designed to allow that. I'm in favor of exploring changes to Metal as a character, but the framing of your argument feels pretty biased.
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