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Old 08-02-2020   #61
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Originally Posted by time gear
The drop dash requires stretches of floor to operate, it works by launching you forward when you land. Bouncing only requires enough ground to stand on to launch you back up
Unless you have Fang's Aerial Garden Bunnyhopping in mind, there's not much difference. It's not difficult to jump almost as soon as Drop Dash sends you forward. And then again, jumping like this on narrow platforms would be just as hard (if not harder) than thokking (you're probably better off jumping normally).
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Originally Posted by time gear
There's not always a wall in reach for Knuckles to grab onto over a bottomless pit or lava or etc. either, yet nobody uses that as a reason why he shouldn't have the glide.
That is not the same thing. Gliding already gives you a benefit (of slower falling) while Drop Dash and Bounce don't (the former gives nothing and the latter makes you fall faster)
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Old 08-02-2020   #62
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Unless you have Fang's Aerial Garden Bunnyhopping in mind, there's not much difference. It's not difficult to jump almost as soon as Drop Dash sends you forward. And then again, jumping like this on narrow platforms would be just as hard (if not harder) than thokking (you're probably better off jumping normally).
The platforms don't need to be narrow. In fact, platforms as narrow as you are describing are quite rare within SRB2. The vast majority of the time, there should be ample space for leeway while aiming. On top of this, the added height from the bouncing would provide additional leeway by giving players more time to set up for the next platform and easier ability to cover distance. Doing this would actually be easier than using thok because the goal would be to be above where you plan to land (Which now is marked by a drop shadow) whereas you are trying to aim more horizontal with the thok.

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That is not the same thing. Gliding already gives you a benefit (of slower falling) while Drop Dash and Bounce don't (the former gives nothing and the latter makes you fall faster)
You fall faster, yes, but that's only after activation. Bouncing isn't just about the execution, but rather the setup, which takes place during gaining height and reaching the apex of your jump. This would become even easier to do after performing a bounce once as you would gain more height and so have more time to prepare for the next bounce. The player wouldn't be expected to even press the button to do the bounce until they were already above the spot they wanted to land, unless they were trying to do more tricky speedrun type tricks.
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Old 08-02-2020   #63
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(Which now is marked by a drop shadow)
Speaking of which, how often have you used drop shadow to correct your landing? Asking purely out of interest.
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Old 08-02-2020   #64
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Speaking of which, how often have you used drop shadow to correct your landing? Asking purely out of interest.
Actually, in my experiences, before 2.2.1, (when drop shadows became a thing without the usage of OpenGL) Although I captivated a lot of the 3d structures of the zones pretty well, I still had a bit of trouble trying to reach higher areas without the usage of OpenGL and or turning off the Third-Person Vertical Lock because I couldn’t really calculate in my head the distance and the momentum necessary to reach such height, or if there even is a platform where I’m aiming to go to. Once the drop shadows became a thing, It was much easier to reach higher areas because now I knew the height, where they were, and what distance I needed to start using my Thok (Sonic), Bounce (Fang), or evening Hover (Metal) to get momentum. Besides that though, I didn’t have many experiences with drop shadows as I downloaded SRB2 a couple days before 2.2.1 was released, plus I majorly play on OpenGL, but it was definitely a improvement to the whole perspective issue.

(Edit; and yes, I knew it is mostly for general platforms and ledges, but I always just had a problem with the higher platforms.)
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Last edited by Charonik08; 08-02-2020 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Clarification.
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Old 08-02-2020   #65
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Speaking of which, how often have you used drop shadow to correct your landing? Asking purely out of interest.
I never really felt like I needed it before, but I do definitely feel like it's a big help now that's it's here. Especially since I have started almost exclusively playing on controller, it feels much better.
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Old 08-02-2020   #66
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I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall.
I mean, it's possible we won't shove it behind an unlock.... It's totally possible it won't be on any character. :P

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It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
It's painfully obvious how it's problematic if you watch any new player runthrough currently on Youtube, especially if the player is using a controller. I'd also be cautious about conflating "simple" with "easy". Knuckles being more complicated than Sonic doesn't make him any harder a character to use.
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Old 08-02-2020   #67
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Thok being exclusive to mods rather than on an unlockable character would actually be more convenient for those who prefer it if the dumb "lol no saving when you have addons loaded" thing gets removed. I hope the team considers getting rid of that archaic gatekeeping.
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Old 08-02-2020   #68
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It's painfully obvious how it's problematic if you watch any new player runthrough currently on Youtube, especially if the player is using a controller. I'd also be cautious about conflating "simple" with "easy". Knuckles being more complicated than Sonic doesn't make him any harder a character to use.
I feel as though we have had this conversation before, but I would say Knuckles is harder than Sonic simply on account of having a lower jump height and as such, lower reach. The glide and climb sometimes helps, but enemies that have a height advantage to begin with are more difficult to deal with as him in general, especially flying enemies.

Don't forget that mobility through the stages is only one aspect of what makes a character easy or hard. Dealing with enemies is an important aspect too. Knuckles is easily the slowest character in regards to how he navigates, not considering shortcuts. This combined with his lower reach from jumping can lead to a bit of extra challenge.

This was a deliberate mechanic in S3K, Knuckles was the intended "Hard Mode" playthrough, with his paths often being a fair bit more challenging than the main path and his lower reach causing bosses to be harder and sometimes even requiring new patterns so he could complete them.

He's less difficult in SRB2 than he is in S3K, but I would still consider him a bigger challenge than Sonic.
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Old 08-02-2020   #69
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oh god this is basically the thok thread 2.0 lmfao

In all seriousness, as I said earlier, I think this topic is worth discussing again now that SRB2 is under new management (well, not totally new management, just that the big names that used to be in charge are gone now).

I've significantly changed my views on the thok since that old thread; I can now much more clearly see the problem people have with this ability, or at least parts of the problem. Personally, I think the best solution to the Sonic ability issue is to keep the thok's general idea (and probably also its name), but enormously rework it so that it doesn't give you a flat predefined burst of speed, but rather a variable burst of speed depending on your momentum. Maybe it would help accessibility to make it easier to release or brake the thok? I don't think it should release as soon as you let go of jump or move backwards, because that would make him kind of feel too similar to Knuckles.

Speaking of similarity to Knuckles, I'm honestly not very fond of the idea of letting Sonic bounce off walls or slightly climb them. It just feels extremely weird and gimmicky, and not something the classic games would have done. Wall interactions really feel like Knuckles' defining feature to me.
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Old 08-03-2020   #70
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Maybe Sonic could have something like the modern Sonic games' airdash - a flat dash straight forward that while not useful for gaining speed, is useful for positioning/correcting missed jumps.

A proper implementation of this would probably need something to tie it into momentum to keep it interesting for experienced players, though.
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Old 08-03-2020   #71
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Maybe Sonic could have something like the modern Sonic games' airdash - a flat dash straight forward that while not useful for gaining speed, is useful for positioning/correcting missed jumps.

A proper implementation of this would probably need something to tie it into momentum to keep it interesting for experienced players, though.
honestly that's probably the most ideal move for srb2, since the game relies so heavily on your momentum to get you to higher and better places
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Old 08-03-2020   #72
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Speaking of similarity to Knuckles, I'm honestly not very fond of the idea of letting Sonic bounce off walls or slightly climb them. It just feels extremely weird and gimmicky, and not something the classic games would have done. Wall interactions really feel like Knuckles' defining feature to me.
Hi, I'm kind of one of the few people who proposed the whole bounce idea as an alternative to the thok so I'll address this concern.

Basically, the idea isn't for a rebound dash where you can just thok into a wall. The wall bouncing is just a side effect to what would be Sonic's main ability which is just to bounce. Think the Derp's bounce but with the added effect of bouncing off walls if you choose to collide with them.
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Old 08-03-2020   #73
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Yeah, as much as I would love to have something similar to Rebound Dash in SRB2, it’s most reasonable to make the Thok more momentum based to basically curtail it to be more of a “saving your poorly timed jump” ability rather than getting unreasonable amounts of speed with it. Sonic still does need that vertical movement though... :thonk:
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Old 08-03-2020   #74
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honestly that's probably the most ideal move for srb2, since the game relies so heavily on your momentum to get you to higher and better places
I don't really think the base game really relies on your momentum to traverse the levels. When playing Sonic at least, most of the speed you get comes from your thok.

Colbalt did write a momentum script for SRB2 but it's not in the base game. The thok is crazy overpowered there though.
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Old 08-03-2020   #75
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Why Hello there old sport.

(Purple guy received an infraction for this post: Do not spam. Put actual content in your posts.)
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Old 08-03-2020   #76
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Why Hello there old sport.
If you made this account for saying the same things in every thread, might as well stop doing that, cause that's not how the mb works.
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Old 08-03-2020   #77
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I don't really think the base game really relies on your momentum to traverse the levels. When playing Sonic at least, most of the speed you get comes from your thok.
In some areas of the game it kinda does, especially when it comes to slope momentum as such. Especially with the Thok, as you can get some crazy momentum spikes and distance using the Thok up a slope in most cases.

In other news, did the literal Purple Guy just randomly appear out of no-where to post in a thread about a hedgehogís ability to fart hard enough to get incredible amounts of velocity mid-air?!
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Old 08-03-2020   #78
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In other news, did the literal Purple Guy just randomly appear out of no-where to post in a thread about a hedgehogís ability to fart hard enough to get incredible amounts of velocity mid-air?!
unfortunately he's also in skip's thread too so uh sonic's air fart isn't special smh
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Old 08-03-2020   #79
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I feel as though we have had this conversation before, but I would say Knuckles is harder than Sonic simply on account of having a lower jump height and as such, lower reach. The glide and climb sometimes helps, but enemies that have a height advantage to begin with are more difficult to deal with as him in general, especially flying enemies.

Don't forget that mobility through the stages is only one aspect of what makes a character easy or hard. Dealing with enemies is an important aspect too. Knuckles is easily the slowest character in regards to how he navigates, not considering shortcuts. This combined with his lower reach from jumping can lead to a bit of extra challenge.

This was a deliberate mechanic in S3K, Knuckles was the intended "Hard Mode" playthrough, with his paths often being a fair bit more challenging than the main path and his lower reach causing bosses to be harder and sometimes even requiring new patterns so he could complete them.

He's less difficult in SRB2 than he is in S3K, but I would still consider him a bigger challenge than Sonic.
Knuckles is not harder to play than Sonic in SRB2. I can guarantee you that the platforming assistance and shortcuts provided via glide and climb heavily outweighs any long-cuts and combat disadvantages created by the lower jump height. To my knowledge this sentiment has been corroborated multiple times from new player feedback.

The degree to which character is more combat friendly is also debatable, considering the player can accidentally kill himself by 60-fracunit instathrusting into Fang when the roof is blown off as Sonic but not as Knuckles.
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Old 08-03-2020   #80
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The degree to which character is more combat friendly is also debatable, considering the player can accidentally kill himself by 60-fracunit instathrusting into Fang when the roof is blown off as Sonic but not as Knuckles.
i agree with you, but in general i think knuckles is worse in combat. despite the fact that you can jump normally into bosses as both characters, when you thok you maintain at least some level of speed while remaining in a spinning state, but with knuckles you fly a short distance backward, completely helpless. both of these conditions can save or kill you depending on the situation, but i'm inclined to say that knuckles can get you killed more often.

or y'know i could just spindash jump into the boss maybe then i could actually clear cez3 more consistenly...
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