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Old 08-06-2020   #161
PencilVoid
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Double jump and dropdash doesn't sound too bad, but you wouldn't be able to use the dropdash if you had a shield or if you had 7 chaos emeralds and 50+ rings.
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Old 08-06-2020   #162
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Double jump and dropdash doesn't sound too bad, but you wouldn't be able to use the dropdash if you had a shield or if you had 7 chaos emeralds and 50+ rings.

You could if you map it right. Like have it so when Jump+Spin uses Shield abilities or Super.
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Old 08-06-2020   #163
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My two cents as (someone who has been following the game for years but is still) a noob.

I like the thok. I think instead of trying to change Sonic to be more beginner-friendly, it should just be made more clear that he isn't a character for beginners. It is strange that the title character isn't who you should immediately be playing, but that's more of a problem(?) with Sonic as a character himself than with SRB2 - a very fast character is going to be difficult to control. He's not exactly the all-rounder that Mario is.

I know when I first played I thought to myself "well it's Sonic Robo Blast 2, I'm supposed to play as Sonic" even though I was more interested in Knuckles. Later on I started getting my ass handed to me, so I started a Knuckles game, and I had a much easier and more fun time. If I was getting a friend into the game I would probably recommend playing as him first.

If you're dead set on making him a simple beginner character, then I think something as simple as giving him the homing attack would be very appealing to new players who are still getting used to engaging enemies in 3D. I also like the idea of making the spindash more useful for him somehow. I remember very frequently trying to use it to get more distance out of jumps, since I'm so used to Sonic Adventure. But it's pretty useless compared to the thok, and it doesn't feel very good. The physics overhaul sounds very nice too, and I would look forward to it.
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Old 08-06-2020   #164
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it should just be made more clear that he isn't a character for beginners
All the written warnings don't seem to work at all - not everyone may bother reading them. And there can be people like me, who did read all the warnings but still chose to play as Sonic. So, unless you are implying that playing as Sonic should switch on some kind of hidden hard mode, the devs were clear as day on that.
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Old 08-06-2020   #165
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If you're dead set on making him a simple beginner character, then I think something as simple as giving him the homing attack would be very appealing to new players who are still getting used to engaging enemies in 3D.
Although the homing attack could be more beginner friendly, the SRB2 level design absolutely does not have the homing attack in mind and the team would basically have to redesign entire areas of Zones to fit Sonicís new way of gameplay. This would also hurt the pacing of the other characters in the respective levels, as now the levels not only would have to cater to the homing attack, but now also to the other characters as well, which would need a very high level of skill in terms of level designing or just simply impossible.
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Old 08-06-2020   #166
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I don't see how a slowfall ability makes sense on Sonic. Sonic is all about ground speed and his ability should reflect that. Maybe Metal could have slowfall?
Considering it's been stated that an ability that easily allows Sonic to exceed his max run speed goes against the fundamentals, what kind of ability could even assist his ground speed while also being welcoming to newcomers and appealing to veterans? Not to mention we are talking about air abilities, so that's difficult to translate into ground speed.

I also generally disagree with your statement. While Sonic is often portrayed as being all about running fast, far more often than not he's not actually capable of more speed than the other characters, his ability in the air is typically something that preserves game flow. Homing Attack, Air Dash, Double Jump, all of these serve the purpose of correcting his movement so that he doesn't fall and die or have to redo a section as often, the mentality is more preserving flow rather than speed.

A slow fall would work well at this, especially combined with a higher jump height. It would serve the practical purpose of greatly extending his midair horizontal potential to cross large gaps, while also functioning as a correctional tool to help aim where you are landing and return to a platform you jumped from if you changed your mind.
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Old 08-06-2020   #167
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I Think Cobalt's Double Jump and Drop Dash are perfect. I mean I'd take just the Drop Dash, but the Double Jump would be just cool.
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Old 08-06-2020   #168
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All the written warnings don't seem to work at all - not everyone may bother reading them. And there can be people like me, who did read all the warnings but still chose to play as Sonic. So, unless you are implying that playing as Sonic should switch on some kind of hidden hard mode, the devs were clear as day on that.
You're not wrong. I was the same way, so I'm not sure exactly what I would do. I don't really have much else to add as I think the physics overhaul and/or keeping the thok but rebalancing its speed sound like good ideas, and I'd need to wait to be able to actually try either of those out to give any further feedback.
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Old 08-06-2020   #169
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You're not wrong. I was the same way, so I'm not sure exactly what I would do. I don't really have much else to add as I think the physics overhaul and/or keeping the thok but rebalancing its speed sound like good ideas, and I'd need to wait to be able to actually try either of those out to give any further feedback.
Same here, I think giving the community a chance to try out the new physics engine would be beneficial as people can give their feedback on it to make sure itís as close to perfect as it could be.
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Old 08-06-2020   #170
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Unfortunately that's not going to happen they don't want us to know what's going on nor do they need are help.
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Old 08-06-2020   #171
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Unfortunately that's not going to happen they don't want us to know what's going on nor do they need are help.
Yeah I presumed so, meh, I could always dream. Iím just excited to see what they could come up with.

(Besides, a flame war would probably start considering how vast peopleís opinions range on this MB, not that thatís a bad thing though.)
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Old 08-07-2020   #172
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Hello! What are you talking about?
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Old 08-07-2020   #173
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Hello! What are you talking about?
To get the full picture of what this thread has become, I suggest you read all 9 pages, even though it’s a bit tiring (which I completely relate to)


In a form of a TL;DR, we have agreed that giving Sonic no ability would not only hurt him as a character and his uniqueness, but also that he wouldn’t be played as much because other characters would seem more interesting. It’s now down to what Sonic’s ability should be and or if the physics need reworking. (which is now confirmed to be in the making)

Basically Thok Thread 2.0
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Old 08-09-2020   #174
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Double jump and dropdash doesn't sound too bad, but you wouldn't be able to use the dropdash if you had a shield or if you had 7 chaos emeralds and 50+ rings.
That's true, but the same could be said for when you get a shield in Mania; so I'd say it's an even tradeoff.
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Old 08-09-2020   #175
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An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:
  • Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
  • Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
  • If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
  • If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
  • The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.

Last edited by time gear; 08-09-2020 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 08-10-2020   #176
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:
  • Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
  • Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
  • If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
  • If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
  • The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.

*Clapping* Great idea man. I love it.
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Old 08-11-2020   #177
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:
  • Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
  • Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
  • If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
  • If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
  • The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.
Although I like the idea, this would be a bit confusing to a beginner. If they skip the tutorial, they will practically have no idea how to use it and itís gimmicks. If they donít skip the tutorial where they would learn about the ability in detail, they might just not use it until they get better at the game it fear that they lose progress out of it or misuse it to take damage, etc... Other than that though, really nice idea.
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Old 08-11-2020   #178
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
An idea I had earlier today and that I finally decided was fleshed out enough to post here is something I would like to call the "Stop Thok". It works as follows:
  • Pressing jump again midair causes Sonic to stop and hold in place in a spin state. From here, the player can look around freely as they see fit.
  • Pressing Jump again will cause Sonic to thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. This puts him in a special "Thok" state which is scripted to return Sonic to basic running speed when he reaches the ground. Vertical momentum Sonic had before the stop was activated is retained, allowing it to still be used for bounces.
  • If the player instead chooses to press spin, one of two things will happen. Either Sonic will drop down to the ground, having lost all momentum, or if you have a shield, it's ability will be activated as normal and you will retain the horizontal momentum you had before stopping.
  • If the player doesn't make a decision after 5 seconds, their jump continues as normal as if they had never activated the stop. If a stop thok has not been launched or a shield ability used, the player can activate the stop thok again, but only up to a maximum of three times.
  • The player must wait about a second before they can launch the thok, so as to help avoid thok spam.

This would give the player much more aiming control over the thok, could be used to temporarily stop Sonic's momentum if he's moving towards a projectile, would allow players to use the thok as a recovery move without fear of being able to aim it properly, and allows the thok to retain it's speed without granting free ground speed to players. This would also not require any new frames of animation to be made.
Junio and Alternative Sonic already does this and it is not beginner friendly. Junio Sonic was one of the first mods I downloaded and I had no idea how to use it as a beginner. It's also not controller friendly at all.
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Old 08-11-2020   #179
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Junio and Alternative Sonic already does this and it is not beginner friendly. Junio Sonic was one of the first mods I downloaded and I had no idea how to use it as a beginner. It's also not controller friendly at all.
Actually, now that I think about it, isnít this just Alternative Sonicís moveset? Except without the speed boost that it grants you overtime? I mean, the moveset is fun and all, but like you said, itís definitely not beginner friendly.
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Old 08-11-2020   #180
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Junio and Alternative Sonic already does this and it is not beginner friendly. Junio Sonic was one of the first mods I downloaded and I had no idea how to use it as a beginner. It's also not controller friendly at all.
I've not tried Alternative Sonic, but I did give Junio Sonic a quick go to compare. I noticed a very important difference which is causing it to be more complicated and less controller friendly: It features a vertical aiming system in addition to the horizontal one. This means you are not only aiming Sonic with left and right, but also with up and down, which is probably why analog controllers aren't ideal. In my proposition, you can still look around freely (if you have vertical camera movement enabled) but Sonic will only thok in the horizontal direction he is facing. Additionally, 5 seconds is longer than you might realize. There should be no pressure for beginners to aim it properly.

The concept I am proposing should be quite intuitive, like firing a cannon but even more simple: You point in the direction you want to shoot, and then you shoot. Even if one skips the tutorial, it shouldn't take long for this concept to sink in. The fact you are given up to three times to attempt this per jump should only make learning even easier, as that's around 15 seconds per jump to figure out what you are doing. Overall, it should be much more beginner friendly than Junio Sonic.
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