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Old 1 Week Ago   #21
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
Either way, the general consensus seems to be that Sonic with no ability would be a net negative SRB2 overall, and that a different approach should be taken to solving the thok dilemma.
Hey, you don't have to be mean about it! :'( I'm new ok!

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The Bounce Attack with horizontal momentum preservation would allow Sonic to reach higher platforms than his regular jump can reach after a few bounces, and could be used similarly to the thok in performing badnik/monitor bounce maneuvers, though with a higher emphasis on vertical rather than horizontal launching. This would give Sonic a more reliable utility to reach high up places without outright giving him Knuckles climbing or Tails flying, keeping him unique. Easier access to otherwise Tails only shortcuts would help give speedrunners the sense of speed they are looking for with Sonic.
Oh yeah I forgot about that idea of yours! By bounce attack do you mean something like the Derp's bounce?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #22
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Hey, you don't have to be mean about it! :'( I'm new ok!
You misunderstand, I was merely stating an observation.


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Oh yeah I forgot about that idea of yours! By bounce attack do you mean something like the Derp's bounce?
I haven't tried Derp's bounce, so I don't know.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #23
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You misunderstand, I was merely stating an observation.




I haven't tried Derp's bounce, so I don't know.
Yeah, I know I was just being dramatic :)

It looks like this:



This is what can be done with it:

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Old 1 Week Ago   #24
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honestly in general there's little point in removing sonic's thok or even changing it in the first place, since i've always believed the most suitable ability for him is one that lets him change direction on a dime while maintaining speed (which is partially why i like mods that implement the adventure spindash or the drop dash).
as for the shields though, they should remain usable for every character, since all of them have great uses for the shields other than sonic.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #25
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Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
It looks like this:



This is what can be done with it:

Yeah that's pretty much what I had in mind.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #26
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Yeah that's pretty much what I had in mind.
Oh! Maybe you could add the rebound dash's functionality too so Sonic can bounce or ricochet against walls as well! Like when you go into a bounce, you can also the sides of walls as well (of course this might be infuriating sometimes I think).
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Old 1 Week Ago   #27
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I don't think giving Sonic the bounce is a good idea since Fang already has a similar move.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #28
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Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
That's precisely why the thok should go. If you get rid of the thok and just give Sonic a better spindash then you don't need to deal with an OP thok.
Sonic's thok is hard to control, it requires lots of skill, is anything that requires skill and knowledge actually OP? Because I see this as the most incorrect term to apply here.
I just feel like you don't know how the thok works and how it it's used and you don't wanna see it anymore. funnily enough, you are not obligated to use it, it's just an air ability.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #29
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Wasn't the main point of removing/moving Sonic's thok over making him/the game more friendly to newcomers?
In terms of giving Sonic no ability at all, I don't think it's that good of an idea. For experienced players, it just gets rid of a real reason to play as him, locking Sonic as a sort of beginner's only character, while most of the other cast has higher skill ceilings (spinfly as Tails, etc)
Maybe a way to reduce thok's "panic button" factor would be to move it to spin key, though that opens another can of worms over shield inputs.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #30
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Originally Posted by MRoach View Post
Sonic's thok is hard to control, it requires lots of skill, is anything that requires skill and knowledge actually OP? Because I see this as the most incorrect term to apply here.
I just feel like you don't know how the thok works and how it it's used and you don't wanna see it anymore. funnily enough, you are not obligated to use it, it's just an air ability.
If it were strictly "OP/UP" then it would be easy to readjust the power of the move to accomodate the game's design. The problem runs deeper than that, in it makes Sonic overtly strong in some areas without strengthening him in areas where he needs it the most.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #31
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Why not just give him the drop dash from Sonic Mania?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #32
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The design mentality going into replacing thok in Sonic's moveset appears to be this: "It must not betray/contradict the fundamentals of gameplay and must be something welcoming to newcomers". The easiest way to accomplish this goal would be to simply replace thok with double jump, but most people seem to agree that this would be fairly boring and would fail to set Sonic apart from other platforming mascots.

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Originally Posted by PencilVoid View Post
I don't think giving Sonic the bounce is a good idea since Fang already has a similar move.
While I can agree that Fang's bounce is similar, I feel that it serves a bit of a different purpose. Still, your point is valid. If Sonic were to be given a bounce, it would need to function a bit more differently from Fang than merely what I described.

I'm not sure how to make it work with multiplayer, but in a strictly single player setting, perhaps Sonic could press double jump to spend a certain number of rings in midair in exchange for a short lived time slow? Sonic himself continues moving at full speed, but enemies, projectiles, and stage hazards are slowed down. This would function as a way to make certain challenges easier for newcomers, but with the downside of having to spend rings to do it. In terms of lore, it could be explained that time isn't actually slowing down, Sonic is just moving faster. Basically, similar in concept to certain movie scenes featuring characters moving at high speeds, including one that came out recently.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #33
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Why not just give him the drop dash from Sonic Mania?
It needs to be an ability that gives Sonic air control so that it works with the vertical level design of SRB2 (or at least the intended level design).
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Old 1 Week Ago   #34
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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
If it were strictly "OP/UP" then it would be easy to readjust the power of the move to accomodate the game's design. The problem runs deeper than that, in it makes Sonic overtly strong in some areas without strengthening him in areas where he needs it the most.
But re-balancing the bouncy jump ability would make it underpowered, uneasy to control and slow, this is the problem with overly-complicated abilities, for characters such as Sonic, he just needs to be fast and that's what the thok delivers, instantaneous speed that isn't found in other abilities.
Maybe something like F-Sonic's Dash and insta-shield and Classic momentum might do the job?

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by GeorgeMP View Post
Why not just give him the drop dash from Sonic Mania?
I've tried it, but it won't work unless people who don't use simple mode are considered and it might bring some controversy because legacy players like me, do not like simple mode.

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
It needs to be an ability that gives Sonic air control so that it works with the vertical level design of SRB2 (or at least the intended level design).
Air control is just a stat, I think tinkering with it a little bit might do the job, the problem comes when the level design is adjusted to work with the thok.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #35
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Air control is just a stat, I think tinkering with it a little bit might do the job, the problem comes when the level design is adjusted to work with the thok.
I'm sorry, I meant a mid-air ability that Sonic could use.

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Maybe something like F-Sonic's Dash and insta-shield and Classic momentum might do the job?
I've actually suggested that something like F-Sonic or Alternative Sonic's dash would be a good ability for Sonic.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #36
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I personally think that double jump works a lot better as a shield ability (which it is currently) than a default Sonic ability. Right now, Sonic can indeed double jump if you know where to find a whirlwind shield and are good at keeping it. Double jumping allows Sonic to much more swiftly get through sections designed around his ability to gain height, so it makes sense for that ability to be a power-up that you'll lose if you get hit. Shield abilities add so much interesting depth to Sonic games, not unlike, say, the feather and fire flowers from Super Mario World.

(Oh god, this is turning into another thok thread, isn't it. Maybe it's worth retreading this topic though, now that the people previously in charge of SRB2 have been booted.)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #37
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(Oh god, this is turning into another thok thread, isn't it. Maybe it's worth retreading this topic though, now that the people previously in charge of SRB2 have been booted.)
I would actually say that it's relevant regardless of the change in management. In the interest of SRB2 being the best game it can be, it is within the interest both the community and dev team alike to get the thok situation figured out.

The problem is that the best designed game isn't necessarily the most fun. Figuring out what to do with Sonic's moveset in a way that is not only practical, but enjoyable as well as welcoming to newcomers is the particular challenge of the issue. Figuring it out will require a fair amount of creativity.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #38
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I would actually say that it's relevant regardless of the change in management. In the interest of SRB2 being the best game it can be, it is within the interest both the community and dev team alike to get the thok situation figured out.

The problem is that the best designed game isn't necessarily the most fun. Figuring out what to do with Sonic's moveset in a way that is not only practical, but enjoyable as well as welcoming to newcomers is the particular challenge of the issue. Figuring it out will require a fair amount of creativity.
not to bash any new ideas but i think the thok already fits both of the required bills
think about it, it's an instant burst of momentum to help pick up speed faster than a spindash, it's a way of instantly changing direction if needs be, it's a speedrunning tool for cutting corners and maintaining speed, and it's a semi-helpful jump correction tool.
if we did give sonic something different that did admittedly fit the bare minimum requirements i don't think it could come close to the raw usefulness that is the thok (i'd be happy to be proven wrong tho)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #39
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not to bash any new ideas but i think the thok already fits both of the required bills
think about it, it's an instant burst of momentum to help pick up speed faster than a spindash, it's a way of instantly changing direction if needs be, it's a speedrunning tool for cutting corners and maintaining speed, and it's a semi-helpful jump correction tool.
if we did give sonic something different that did admittedly fit the bare minimum requirements i don't think it could come close to the raw usefulness that is the thok (i'd be happy to be proven wrong tho)
I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.

However, the data apparently exists, and they seem dead set on replacing the thok to be more welcoming to newcomers. The general consensus has been that it should stay in the game anyway, they are probably just going to shove it on another character. Either Metal or a new playable entirely (My vote is still Espio btw, but if they opt not to add an entire new character just for thok I would at least prefer they don't just turn Metal into "old sonic" and allow him to stay unique. I submitted an idea as to how this could work in the suggestions topic recently, feel free to go give it some feedback.).

With that being the case, I feel that it's best to remain open minded regarding Sonic's potential to have an ability other than thok. It's entirely possible that whatever they decide to replace it with could be even more fun to use, but to help ensure that be the case they are going to need all the ideas to work with they can get.

Last edited by time gear; 1 Week Ago at 01:26 AM.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #40
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I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
I had problems with the thok mostly because I was using a controller. It's alot easier with keyboard and mouse but it's still hard to get used to. I can understand why most people are very turned off by the thok especially people who are interested in playing the game with a controller. If SRB2 wants to be more controller and newcomer friendly, the thok has to be changed or replaced.

I also think the thok is somewhat boring but this is a personal opinion divorced from my prior statements.
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