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Old 02-23-2020   #1
CobaltBW
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Default Metal Sonic Character Discussion

  • How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
  • Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
  • How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
  • The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
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Old 02-24-2020   #2
glaber
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  • How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
Feels pretty good and I enjoy playing as him.

  • Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
As he is now? Yes. The better you are at Metal sonic, the more enemies and spikes you can plow through with his over charge mode or whatever it's called.

  • How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
contribute: Access to the hover ability without the need to go super
Detracts: reminds us that there are still 4 other characters that can't go super without 200 emblems

  • The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
I would yes. I would recommend testing out this new play style first as a mod to get general feedback
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Old 02-24-2020   #3
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Going to (very quickly) reiterate some points I made in Suggestions a month back.

How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?

Love & hate, but mostly hate. Dash Mode, the part I love, is far overshadowed by Hover.

Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?

Level-dependent, but usually no. Dash Mode has lots of moments where it's forcefully removed from you in the level design. It's made excruciatingly obvious when using Hover is a good idea or not, no decision making involved.

How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?

Not really sure what this question's asking? If this means "how well-balanced is he in each mode": balance doesn't impact other characters (not directly, anyway) in SP/Coop, in Race he can almost rival Sonic in early maps but not really, and he doesn't have much of an advantage over anyone in Ringslinger (maybe he's better in Tag??).

How I choose to interpret this though is "how meaningful of a choice is he, compared to the other 6, when you're starting a new playthrough and are staring at the character select?" In that case, he's distinctly the worst option, hands down. You cannot take him as your first playthrough, so the soonest he'll get played is as a second playthrough. Even then, he's fighting for that spot against Fang and (potentially) Amy, which both have extensive character paths. Right now he feels like he's designed as the first unlockable character, but he's (potentially) the last! Out of all 6, he is the only one that I thought was a complete waste of time doing a playthrough of -- the thing that's unique about him is unusable outside the first zone.

The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?

Nope! Metal Sonic is the most disappointing character right now; I think he's the one who needs the most changes. I prototyped a set of changes for him with Chrome just a few days ago to sort of keep his Hover ability, but makes it far more fun by giving it limits, making Dash Mode easier to keep, and a new extra use that gives it more utility when in Dash Mode. I decided to release it because of this thread, so it's here if anyone's interested. Even if it's not exactly what gets done to him, I hope that opens the door on potential Metal Sonic changes -- he really just needs something that isn't an ability that's been around since Final Demo.
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Old 02-24-2020   #4
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Honestly... Metal Sonic feels like a character mod from Releases. I continuously forget that he's part of the base game and not one of the WADs loaded from my autoexec.cfg file.

This isn't very helpful criticism considering I have no idea how to make him feel more integrated, but it's how I feel.
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Old 02-24-2020   #5
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I feel like Silver is a good point of comparison to Metal Sonic.

Both characters are overpowered, but Silver has a wacky bag of tricks one can master to break the game completely, whereas Metal's Boost Mode is a bit awkward to activate and doesn't offer much reward, and his Hover just seems to allow him to do some Knuckles/Super Sonic things without letting him in the dedicated Knuckles sections.

If I want to play an overpowered character, I'd rather get someone from Releases that has a bunch of silly gimmicks to play around with. Metal Sonic is in a bit of a grey zone between "balanced" and "overpowered".

As TehRealSalt said, the Boost Mode is the core element of Metal Sonic that the other characters don't have, with Hover being a bit straightforward and mindless, especially if one isn't concerned with staying in Boost Mode. I'm not sure how I feel about their version of the character; it doesn't feel quite right for hover to gradually go from a hover to a glide-ey thok, but I do agree that Boost Mode could be designed around more.

The way I see it, there's two directions to go with Metal Sonic:

1. Focus on Boost Mode and tune Metal Sonic's power down a bit. Tie some of Hover's power into being in Boost Mode (perhaps it would always float down if not boosting) and make Boost Mode a bit more attainable in level design that contains lots of sharp turns.

2. Make Metal Sonic an even more overpowered reward for finishing the game. Make Hover even wackier; let the player ascend and descend diagonally with it like Silver's Psycho Boost, and/or let Metal bounce off of walls as in his boss fight. Wild, fast, chaotic.

I don't dislike Metal Sonic in his current state. I wouldn't want a complete rework of his kit, but I do think he could be polished up.
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Old 02-24-2020   #6
Gunla
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How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
Metal is by far my favorite character within the cast to play. I love how Dash Mode operates and Hover is enjoyable to utilize.

Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
As TehRealSalt mentioned, there are several levels where Dash Mode is not really feasible to attain and thus doesn't really feel as accounted for. This is more apparent within some levels in the campaign but probably most apparent in DSZ and ERZ. I felt like, for many levels, he was fun to play but felt often limited in paths since he generally lacked exclusive ability locked paths, especially later on in the campaign.

In these levels where his abilities are less restricted by the level design itself, I definitely feel like I am sincerely rewarded for retaining Dash Mode and using Hover in a smart manner to position myself well. However, when it comes to areas like DSZ, Metal feels like his toolkit isn't accounted for and his usage of Dash Mode becomes limited to spindash charging to get to a specific spot. Dash Mode in its current form often feels at odds with how the level design of later SRB2 levels is. On the other hand, Hover is pretty straightforward as an ability that allows you to traverse through hazards without the vertical gains that Tails can provide.

How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
Compared to the other unlockables, Metal is considerably more akin to a B-side album of an existing character since Dash Mode doesn't usually contribute much to alternate paths (Dash Mode can break spikes, but Amy springs marked by spikes don't do much for Metal, for instance). Despite the fact that I enjoy playing him so much, I think that Metal is in a weird position where either levels need to be more accommodating towards his gameplay as is with new paths, or something should change about him to make him more appealing when he's likely the last char you'd technically unlock.

The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
Truthfully, I would. I enjoy how Metal feels for certain fights and while I'd understand if Hover has some sort of limitation on it, I'd hope that any limitation to Hover also buffs him and does something else to make him stand out or let Dash Mode be better utilized in some levels. I do like TehRealSalt's re balance of Metal though and I think some more serious adjustments to his kit are more than likely necessary, but I think there are ways to change his kit for the better without revamping him entirely.
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Old 02-24-2020   #7
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Easily the most fun of the 6. A redesign would have to be incredibly cool for me to not be at least a little disappointed, honestly. Boost mode needs to stay in some capacity for sure. The boost mode charge value (the invisible number that increases with movement / spindash revving) shouldn't be so quick to drain to 0 once boost mode is lost. This would make it easy to take sharp turns by briefly slowing down and re-entering boost mode right after.
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Old 02-24-2020   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally? [...]
Barely at all. I'm not good enough to get to use the dash mode for more than a few seconds at a time (which is not the game's fault, except in a few slow-paced rooms (e.g. elevators)), and the hover ability is just boring to me.

You don't really do anything new with the hover, you just stop doing something (you stop falling), if that makes sense.
And rather than that being in addition to another ability (like with Super Sonic), it's in place of a different ability, meaning that the ability doesn't particularly help you get extra speed nor height (it just helps prevent you from losing height (which may also let you land on top of a platform to indirectly keep your speed instead of falling below the platform and hitting a wall), but you don't gain anything directly from the ability itself).

I, personally, would much prefer something to give you extra speed or extra height (e.g. a double jump?) on double-jumping.


The concept (and implementation) of the dash mode is fine, though, I like that a lot. But like with Amy and (to an extent) Fang, the mid-air jump ability feels pretty underwhelming.


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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
[...] Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play? [...]
Yes. The dash mode can let skilled players surge right through stages (especially big and open ones) faster than with any other character, the hover can be used to fly over long gaps and/or avoid not reaching a platform before falling, and the dash mode's extra jump height when sustained long enough makes it possible to clear some heights in just a single jump (especially when paired with upwards slopes), rather than the 2 (or sometimes more) jumps that it'd take for Sonic or other characters.


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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
[...] The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
Would I miss the dash mode? Yes. Would I miss the hover? Not at all.
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Old 02-24-2020   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
Metal is my second least favorite character. I find Tails to be more mindless and boring to play, but he has the excuse of being the easy mode character for beginners. Metal doesn't have an excuse, on top of having other issues.

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Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
See, Boost Mode is a good idea. A great idea, even. However it's a terrible fit for this level design. There's always elevators, chain swings and such that force you to wait and turn Boost Mode off. And even when you don't have to wait, there's always waterslides, rope hangs and such that forcefully turn Boost Mode off. And even when you can just run, there's always sharp turns and busy corridors and such that will slow you down just enough that Boost Mode turns off again!

The worst part however is that for some goddamn reason Boost Mode is much stricter here than it is in the game it was introduced in, Sonic Advance 2. In that game, you can't lose Boost Mode in midair, allowing you some time to recover if you crash into a wall, maybe keep the Boost a bit longer if you're lucky. Here? Tough luck pal, back to the boost-less gulag you go. It's also much more forgiving with letting you keep Boost Mode if you hit the ground at less than max speed, unlike SRB2. Granted, losing Boost Mode in SRB2 by just a thread means building it back up is quicker, but the time frame for this feature before you have to build up Boost Mode the long way is so tiny, it's worthless.

All in all, being skilled at SRB2 Boost Mode to me feels like being skilled at playing SRB2 with the DK Bongos.

Then there's the Hover. Ah, the Hover. It sucks. It's as mindless as Tails' flight but less useful. There's no skill at all involved in it, or at least not more than there is in flying - they have basically the same skill floor. The big kicker for me though is that Hover actually has a lower skill ceiling than flying does! With flying, you have decisions to make in regards to how accurate you want your landing to be and/or how much speed you want to sacrifice to get to that platform, and you have to actively keep track of any safe areas close by if you feel you're running out of air above dangerous terrain. It's not much I suppose, but it's more than what Hover has.

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How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
>SRB2
>balance
jej

I basically second what Salt said. Metal doesn't offer much of his own experience, like with Amy and Fang, and with Boost Mode not really coming into play often, he's just a Sonic with a mediocre version of Tails' ability. That's not what I should describe the big "unlockable by beating the game and also ONE OF THE BOSSES" character as!

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The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
Not at all. While, again, I do enjoy the idea of Boost Mode, I'd happily trade it away if you guys come up with something better.

If a revamp does come, I wish it did more to differentiate Metal from the others. He'll always have special abilities, sure, and little cosmetic touches like him not drowning but short-circuiting, but it could and should go further. For example, he's not physically touching the ground when he "walks" or "runs" - what if that made him unable to use the Rollout Rocks and have to look for an alternate path? Just an idea.

At the same time, Metal should be brought closer to the others. By that I mean his racing self and boss self. Playable Metal, race Metal and boss Metal share traits but they're clearly distinct from one another, more than what would be expected in the transition from NPC to PC. Race Metal can bust spikes at any time, boss Metal can go into Boost Mode from a standstill in half a second... Hell, if it wasn't for said spike-busting, you could replace race Metal with anybody except Knuckles and it'd work. The idea of playing as a boss is always a really cool one but Metal as he is here doesn't quite make it there in the same way Fang does.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
I'm back and forth with it. In certain situations he's really fun, but he's also situationally boring. Levels like Greenflower Zone and Techno Hill are great as Metal as his abilities have potential with a little thought and skill to gain access to shortcuts rather than counteract main level gimmicks. Levels with more bottomless pits and floor hazards on the other hand end up feeling like a joke as him, and remain fun only as long as the novelty of abusing his powers.

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Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
Yes and No. As I mentioned before, certain levels have a feel to them as though mastery over his abilities can bring great rewards, while others are just way too easy due to his abilities being a direct counter to their biggest gimmicks. I would probably say that's not entirely a problem with his moveset however, and more something that would need to be addressed in level design by giving him more unique paths.

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How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
For the sake of simplicity, I will compare him to the main trio and not to Fang and Amy, as I feel the game is primarily balanced around those three and as such most of the level design was probably made with them in mind first, and then added on to for others later.

His hover ability can be compared to Tails' flight and Knuckles' glide. As I mentioned in the suggestions topic, it overall feels superior to both of these abilities despite them both having certain advantages. I will explain in more detail:

Tails can gain vertical height, and a rather substantial amount at that. This situationally gives Tails an advantage over Metal when there is a particular emphesis on upward verticality within a level. However, to make up for this Metal excels at horizontal movement through the air, and indeed is the most powerful character at doing so.

Tails can only fly for so long, and loses speed trying to maintain airtime vertically through multiple flight button presses. This places Tails at a disadvantage against Metal in levels that are more horizontally designed with lots of floor hazards and bottomless pits, as Metal has no limit to how long he can hover and can keep up a decent pace with ease. His horizontal movement potential in the air is infinite, and this is barely offset by any kind of punishment for messing it up by bumping into things or making sharp turns.

Knuckles has more horizontal potential compared to Tails, but still less than Metal. He loses height at a consistent rate as he glides through the air, while Metal does not while hovering. Knuckles can grab onto certain walls and climb along them to maintain height and increase distance, but Metal can breeze through areas that lack walls Knuckles can latch onto, as well as through areas with them faster than Knuckles can. The only saving grace Knuckles has here is that when there does happen to be something he can climb, he can gain height with it while Metal is capped at the height he started at each jump.

Sonic has more immediate speed potential than Metal, able to go from 0 to top speed in the blink of an eye with his thok. He's also generally easier to keep control over than Metal. Metal makes up for this with his dash ability, V. Maximum Overdrive. It removes his speed cap and allows him to blaze through the stage so long as the player can avoid bumping into things, giving him crazy skill potential. This also doubles as a buff to his fully charged spindash.

Overall, Metal might not necessarily be the speed run king in every level, but he is the character I believe to have the easiest time clearing levels in the highest number of situations, and generally feels like much more of a "Jack of all trades" well rounded character than Knuckles. His ability feels like a superior compromise between Tails' flight and Knuckles glide, and he generally has the speed to keep up with Sonic in the right hands.

I feel as though in his current state he's a positive addition to the game, but he could use some tweaks to make him slightly more different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
Yes and No. Part of me would miss abusing his moveset in levels that become a joke because of it, but I feel like the benefit would outweigh this. I don't really feel like his entire moveset needs to be changed though, just tweaked. Some big changes would be nice, such as altering how he behaves underwater and in a vacuum compared to other characters. His hover ability on the other hand I feel like is fine with the exception that while in base form it should drop like a rock when you lose too much speed, rather than falling slowly. This combined with his lack of a thok to gain speed back easily would allow it to stay powerful while offsetting that with a heavy risk, making it more of a risk vs reward playstyle.

If major changes were necessary however, I feel like making him reflect his boss battle in gameplay a bit more could be a really fun reward for players who unlock him, even if this means the requirements to do so are made harder. In particular, I would give him something resembling true flight but for a limited time like Tails, as well as projectiles he can charge up and shoot at enemies while in the air.

I would also tweak his dash move to replace spindash entirely, time it based on how many walls he has collided with, and have him bounce off walls when he collides with them. The ability to control which direction he is moving during this state would be minimal, and as such it could be risky to try to use to skip huge gaps with. He would be able to use it in the air as well as on the ground, charging it up for longer would allow him to bounce off more walls before it ends and make it move faster. He could not enter this state while running.

Last edited by time gear; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:59 AM.
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