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Old 07-06-2020   #1
Frostiikin
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Default What's with all these low effort characters that've been releasing?

Something i've noticed as of late is that characters with little to no effort, the biggest offenses being WandNight, WandShy, Wanda, and Runball, with WandShy and Wanda being by far the biggest offenses. Some of you may have noticed that I left a few other low-quality characters out, and that's because I feel there's a need to make a distinction between low quality and low effort.


Things such as Walt The Cat, Rafael, Pedro, and Roblox Noob are all what most would consider "Low Quality", however, the distinction is that with those, the creators clearly poured their hearts into it, while the sprites and abilities are far from being good, there was real effort put in to them. These *deserve* to be here.


For those who think i'm being needlessly mean with the four i've selected to use as examples, let me explain why I think this way. As for runball, He's just a sphere with lines drawn on him as "legs" that just is constantly propelled forwards, with only a single angle, and no penalty if you hit a wall or something, and in the release thread he literally said it's likely impossible to beat the game with. Edit:The reasoning for my dislike of runball is that I believed that it broke rule 1 of submissions, since he's a simple geometric shape (a ball) with an extremely basic lua that I could recreate in about ten minutes. I really should've made this more clear when I initially wrote this. ̶A̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶N̶i̶g̶h̶t̶.̶.̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶p̶r̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶h̶o̶r̶r̶i̶d̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶s̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶e̶n̶c̶y̶,̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶s̶p̶r̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶t̶h̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶,̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶s̶ ̶s̶q̶u̶i̶s̶h̶e̶d̶ ̶d̶e̶p̶e̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶i̶m̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶,̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶o̶h̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶g̶o̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶.̶.̶.̶ ̶O̶n̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶,̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶l̶e̶n̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶m̶e̶c̶h̶a̶ ̶s̶o̶n̶i̶c̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶i̶n̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶m̶i̶s̶s̶i̶o̶n̶.̶ ̶A̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶u̶s̶h̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶d̶g̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶d̶.̶.̶.̶ ̶F̶r̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶S̶h̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶a̶.̶ ̶O̶h̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶g̶o̶d̶,̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶S̶h̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶a̶.̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶N̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶r̶e̶a̶d̶y̶ ̶*̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶*̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶S̶h̶y̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶d̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶N̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶o̶d̶s̶h̶o̶t̶ ̶e̶y̶e̶s̶ ̶&̶ ̶r̶e̶m̶o̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶p̶i̶n̶d̶a̶s̶h̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶E̶V̶E̶N̶ ̶W̶O̶R̶S̶E̶.̶ ̶W̶a̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶L̶I̶T̶E̶R̶A̶L̶L̶Y̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶o̶l̶o̶r̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶l̶s̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶d̶n̶i̶g̶h̶t̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶R̶E̶C̶O̶L̶O̶R̶S̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶a̶n̶n̶e̶d̶?̶
While I still don't *like* wandnight, i'll admit that I was being a bit too harsh on her sprites when I first wrote this thread, When I was writing it, all of the recolored wandnights had just released, and I was getting rather miffed about it. I still hold my sentiment about the wandnight clones being extremely lazy, and i'm glad they're all being forced into a single thread. Probably should've cooled off before writing this tbh.
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Last edited by Frostiikin; 07-06-2020 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 07-06-2020   #2
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First off, you can be much nicer. Quality is the eye of the beholder, and the fact the sprites are managable and the characters are playable is argubly good enough.

My only issue here is with the Wand characters, how there are three separate threads when they could just be combined into one thread. I can understand a complaint there, but the rest is honestly just throwing a fit because it's not up to personal standards, something we ought to move away from when it comes to allowing submissions.
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Old 07-06-2020   #3
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The fairies I get. But Runball is fine. Sure, it doesn't look good skin wise, but it accomplished what it set out to do.
But still, let's just hope the quality control doesn't revert back to its original state, aka before the 2.1 days.
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Old 07-06-2020   #4
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This is an issue that needs to be fixed. Quality control should be mandatory, or else we'll be filled with recolors, Lua thieves, and overall shit WADs.
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Old 07-06-2020   #5
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You have
SUCH a good point with that.

I'd consider Runball kinda less shitty, since its so dumb, that I've grown rather fond with it.
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Old 07-06-2020   #6
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i wont comment on the WADs themselves because i am no judge, but to say something is 'zero effort' is, in a way, untrue. i mean, the creator of the wand fairies is putting a LITTLE bit of effort into them. from what ive seen they all have artwork, and different artwork at that. also ive heard good things about runball, though i dont play with custom characters myself, so to judge a WAD purely by its appearence is absolutely bullcrap. its like complaining that a cartoon is absolutely awful just because the animation sucks.

also, dude, be a bit nicer. im all for being directly to the point in opinion posts, but youre talking about someone else's creation here. and theyre all recent! seriously, just have a little bit of decency.
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Old 07-06-2020   #7
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Sonic Robo Blast 2 modding is more about having fun and learning how to gamedev than it is about producing quality, consumable content.
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Old 07-06-2020   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrispy View Post
Sonic Robo Blast 2 modding is more about having fun and learning how to gamedev than it is about producing quality, consumable content.
But the problem with that is that if the quality stuff is lumped in with the takes-15-minutes-to-make stuff, the actual quality stuff will just get burried by an endless flood of no effort crap. Keep in mind how I said stuff like Pedro, Walt, and the noob were fine, they aren't particularly good, but the creators actually did try with them. I don't think every mod has to have hundreds of hours put in, but atleast some sort of quality barrier should be in place.
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Old 07-06-2020   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostiikin View Post
the actual quality stuff will just get burried
I encourage you and other users to rate mods you like with stars. Then, you can surface content considered high quality by the community by making use of the filter.
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Old 07-06-2020   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostiikin View Post
But the problem with that is that if the quality stuff is lumped in with the takes-15-minutes-to-make stuff, the actual quality stuff will just get burried by an endless flood of no effort crap. Keep in mind how I said stuff like Pedro, Walt, and the noob were fine, they aren't particularly good, but the creators actually did try with them. I don't think every mod has to have hundreds of hours put in, but atleast some sort of quality barrier should be in place.
nobody is born knowing how to do things. im proof of that because im literally an artist whos constantly improving day by day. sure, you can complain all you want, but if you just insult and dont actually give criticism, youre not doing anyone any favors. the judges and the entire goddamn SRB2 community are in this forum for a reason. someone submits something, the judge approves, and the community gives their thoughts about that something so the original poster can improve on it.


i mean, SURE, you can just not submit your WAD and keep working on it, but its gonna be 10x harder to improve if you only have you yourself to judge and nobody else.
thats, like, one of the main points of creating. and to say something just 'sucks' and has 'no effort' is NOT helping.
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Old 07-06-2020   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostiikin View Post
But the problem with that is that if the quality stuff is lumped in with the takes-15-minutes-to-make stuff, the actual quality stuff will just get burried by an endless flood of no effort crap. Keep in mind how I said stuff like Pedro, Walt, and the noob were fine, they aren't particularly good, but the creators actually did try with them. I don't think every mod has to have hundreds of hours put in, but atleast some sort of quality barrier should be in place.
There's a distinction here between "takes a long time to produce" and "quality"
These things are not tied, you can work a long time on a low quality product and you can produce high quality products in a low amount of time. To have releases separated by quality standards, or rejecting mods for not being traditionally appealing, would be elitist and demeaning.
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Old 07-06-2020   #12
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Wads that work properly, don't break rules, and don't contain stolen content get passed. Wads do not have to be "good" to pass. If everything had to be "good" to pass, that would close to door to a lot of newbie modders. I for one like to open that door for them and give others the chance to give them constructive criticism. (Then again, I've neglected my judge duties for years now :y)
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Old 07-06-2020   #13
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this is so messed up

gating what is and isn't acceptable in terms of quality is the same mystic-era toxicity that stifled creativity for so long; frankly, if the community wants to go back in this direction, i'll prolly bounce

please dont revert back to that. push for a new submissions system if you want (dm me suggestions about this as im prototyping a new system), but like damn. don't assume how much went into a project just because you perceive it to not be up to your own personal standards.

srb2 appeals to literal *children*... the only quality threshold that should exist is "does it function"—the act of creating something ought to be the star of the modding vibe, not some arbitrary quality bar
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Old 07-06-2020   #14
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I honestly agree on your opinion here.
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Old 07-06-2020   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ash View Post
this is so messed up

gating what is and isn't acceptable in terms of quality is the same mystic-era toxicity that stifled creativity for so long; frankly, if the community wants to go back in this direction, i'll prolly bounce

please dont revert back to that. push for a new submissions system if you want (dm me suggestions about this as im prototyping a new system), but like damn. don't assume how much went into a project just because you perceive it to not be up to your own personal standards.

srb2 appeals to literal *children*... the only quality threshold that should exist is "does it function"—the act of creating something ought to be the star of the modding vibe, not some arbitrary quality bar
im literally only making this reply to say i love your avatar but this would be out of subject so i guess i gotta make something relevant


but honestly? youre right. this kind of stuff is borderline 'cringe culture' territory - its very close to """"criticism"""" that people make towards childrens' sonic recolor ocs that they drew over a sonic x screenshot. its rude, its belittling, and it doesnt help anyone.


just be nicer to people who make WADs yall. theyre trying
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Old 07-06-2020   #16
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I was fine with wandnight when it was a single character, while I didn't like her... like, at all, it was more of just "guess i'll have to ignore this 'til it gets burried". But now with these wandnight clones, it's really showing how easy it is to abuse the current system. Again, I don't think extremely strict quality control is needed, just slight quality control to prevent literal recolors from getting into releases. I probably shouldn't have talked about runball though, that one just irked me personally if i'm being honest. Admittedly, when I made this, I was kinda getting pissed with the wandnight spam, and wasn't really thinking before posting.
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Old 07-06-2020   #17
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While reading this post, my thoughts were the same as zevirik’s. To us the Wad may seem low effort, but in reality the author could’ve felt like they put a decent amount of effort into their Wad. Plus, the author may post their Wad to receive feedback on what they have to do better, in terms of sprites, Lua and or mechanics. The author can always improve, and moreover the community gets the opportunity to help the author grow and become better.


plus Runball is really fun but that’s besides the point...
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Old 07-06-2020   #18
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I should make the role of submissions clear. Submissions to make sure that everything that goes through works as intended, and isn't stolen. This is why Wand Night for example was put back into submissions and has been put back into releases now that permission to use the code was secured from its original creator. It is not a means of quality control, if we did that then we'd wind up in a situation where people who are just getting into modding or game development may have trouble even getting their foot in the door, which encourages alternative release systems such as Gamebanana (Or the SRB2 Skybase back in the day, which also had a population of people who couldn't release wads on the official releases system at the time). Because people who put effort in, but didn't meet a pre-determined quality guideline, are still going to release their work somewhere.

The guideline that we use is (quoted verbatim from the judge guideline thread) "the purpose of judging is to prevent releases that are breaking the rules or have no redeeming value from being released. The actual quality of the file does not matter. If the author clearly tried to make something good and just failed, it should still be released so he can get feedback." and generally it's something I agree with.

I don't see an issue with a character like Runball myself though, I welcome someone making something quite silly as I feel that SRB2 modding should be about making things and having fun with it in the process. And rejecting things for a perceived low-quality boundary runs into the problem of discouraging people just getting into the hobby of modding or game design from even starting.

The one thing here that I think is worth budging on, is maybe enforcing Rrose80149's fairy characters to be in one thread instead of split across three different threads. After checking with the other judges if this is appropriate, they've agreed and I will be enforcing that. Egg on my face for not doing it before they were released really, as that was a bad call on my part. A manual submissions process is always going to have human error and for that I apologize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radicalicious View Post
This is an issue that needs to be fixed. Quality control should be mandatory, or else we'll be filled with recolors, Lua thieves, and overall shit WADs.
This is actively something we try to enforce, you might have noticed in the case of lua thieves that plagarized content generally isn't allowed in releases. But if people feel I've missed the mark and been to generous then it's good to get that feedback.

I think what would fix the fear of good characters being drowned out by bad ones is a proper search system. Earlier in the day, there was a discussion in the community discord server about implementing a tagging system for releases. And while I'm not sure that's even possible on the forums, being able to use a more refined search to find the content you want would definitely go a long way to alleviate this concern. Because then files no longer on the first page would be easier to find in future.
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Old 07-06-2020   #19
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As long as it functions and isnt outright lazy (like a recolor of Sonic with modified stats), then it can pass. A lot of these "low effort" mods are often the first mods that a user makes. They gotta learn somehow. If you feel they can do more, then please actually comment so they can improve. Make sure to use the star rating system too. The more comments they get, the more likely they ar eto improve. Just... don't be a jerk about it when you do.
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Old 07-06-2020   #20
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We really don't want to get so bad with our criticism that people start making up terms like "Glaber Syndrom" again now.
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