Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

Well, the rest of the paragraphs introduce false information or new contradictions to solve the old ones, so there isn't really much more to talk about.
The story paragraph is unimportant since IIRC it's already been stated that any kind of story/canon has no bearing, but even then just goes the route of "the story does what it wants." Which is fine, but super isn't actually in the story at all, just the gameplay. The fact that you even call it an "excuse" in a later paragraph is equally showing of that.
 
Yeah, the whole first paragraph was assuming anyone cares about SRB2's "story". I doubt anyone does, but I figured it was worth musing over because half of the 13 pages in this thread were bickering about S3K and Mania lore to try to justify wanting everything to be super. The game design logic matters more to me.
 
the Argument of Story is irrelevant because canonically, the super Emeralds were never activated and Sonic took his chaos emeralds with him when he left Angel Island in S3&K. The same emeralds he previously collected in sonic 2. But despite this, Knuckles was still able to collect the 7 chaos emeralds that were supposedly not there anymore, become super, activate the super emeralds, become hyper, and then have to fight Mecha Sonic in base form with only 3 rings

The argument of diluting the novelty is nearly the same as super everyone reducing character diversity. A Fallacy. Super being a novel thing didn't last past Sonic 2.
Sonic 2, sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Knuckles in Sonic 2, Sonic R, Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, sonic Advance, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Riders, Sonic Rider Zero Gravity, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic 06, Sonic the hedgehog 1 mobile, Sonic Lost World, Shadow the Hedgehog (game), Sonic Mania/Plus, Sonic Forces (DLC), Sonic World Adventure/Unleashed, Sonic and Sega All Stars Raceing, Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing Transformed, Super Smash Brothers Braw, Super Smash Brothers for Wii U, Super Smash Brothers For 3ds, Super Smash Brothers Ultimate

Plus Amy being harder than Sonic to play with, and Metal Sonic getting it too actually defeats the Reason Sonic use to be the only one to get Super as now there's a second Character who get's super, and a different character who's the hardest to play as in the base game.

Also Sonic 2 wasn't made with Knuckles in mind at all, yet Knuckles was still allowed to go super in Sonic 2 and was able to even benefit from his own move set in that game as well, even while super!
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Kaw1N6vK0Qvr/
 
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the Argument of Story is irrelevant because canonically,
Fuck official Sonic lore: none of it makes sense anyway, plus all storytelling is bullshit and can be selectively ignored by this fanfic game story.
As I said after my first post (and really should've emphasized in my first post - sorry), I don't really care what lore does, especially in the context of an unofficial fangame.


The argument of diluting the novelty is nearly the same as super everyone reducing character diversity. A Fallacy. Super being a novel thing didn't last past Sonic 2.
I don't mean "diluting novelty" as in "diluting the novelty of super existing". I see it as "Sonic being super gives Sonic something novel, and if everyone in the game had it, it wouldn't be novel for Sonic to have it". If Sonic's super being unique to him isn't important to you, then hey, that's a fine outlook to have, but the alternative is a valid design choice too.


Plus Amy being harder than Sonic to play with, and Metal Sonic getting it too actually defeats the Reason Sonic use to be the only one to get Super as now there's a second Character who get's super, and a different character who's the hardest to play as in the base game.
Again, with Metal Sonic I can see it making sense because he's New Game + content. This specific explanation that I bring up wouldn't work with Amy, who you can get after a quick bit of exploration in the first act of the campaign, and it doesn't work quite as well with Fang because you still get him before the hardest bits of the game. The reason for those two not having super would connect to the above "Sonic being super gives him something novel" point, which Metal Sonic as post-game content doesn't contradict as badly.


I'm not trying to say "everyone going super would be a bad idea". Sorry if I worded things to insinuate that. Honestly I don't care either way, and if everyone could, I'd just avoid using it like I avoid using Super Sonic now and be totally unaffected. All I'm trying to do is explain why the current setup makes sense as a valid design choice, and why things like "other characters don't get anything for the emeralds" don't make it invalid.


Also Sonic 2 wasn't made with Knuckles in mind at all, yet Knuckles was still allowed to go super in Sonic 2 and was able to even benefit from his own move set in that game as well, even while super!
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Kaw1N6vK0Qvr/
Arguing over whether super benefits the characters who get it is futile. It's obvious they all do.


My biggest problem with the "just mod the game if you don't like it" point that's been brought up in the past is that it disables saving & unlockables -- ever since 2.1, I basically had to ignore one of the biggest & one of my most favorite additions to the game, the emblem system, because if you add even one mod you're locked out of them (unless if you do that silly custom gamedata exploit).

Otherwise, if there were not legitimate downsides to adding a mod, I would totally agree with that :P
This needs addressed regardless of anything to do with this argument. I personally think there's no point locking people out of progression via mods - if someone wants to get 200 emblems by loading up HMS and blasting through the levels, they should be more than welcome to - and I think it'd be a great solution to topics like this, where people endlessly argue over a design decision that doesn't have a single "correct" solution.
 
From a gameplay standpoint, Sonic being the only default character to go super makes sense because he's the hardest of the default characters to get through the base game with. (I said base game, not special stages. If you'll kindly note, nobody plays differently from each other in special stages in any other Sonic game either.) Tails and Knuckles have abilities that make platforming easier and Sonic doesn't. Ergo, he gets a special reward if the player manages to get through the game as him up to whatever point is required to get all the emeralds, while Tails and Knuckles just get the satisfaction of having got them.

"But why can't Amy go super despite being harder to play as than Sonic?" Super being on more characters dilutes the novelty, and if it was exclusive to an unlockable character then people who started as Sonic would feel gyped. "But then why can Metal turn super if it's easier to play as than Sonic and is a second character to unlock?" Uhhhh let's call it a New Game+ reward. Remember you have to beat the game before you can play as Metal Sonic. Also fall back on the storytelling excuse above.

"What's the motivation to get the chaos emeralds if you can't go super, then?" Does there have to be one? What's the motivation for getting a perfect bonus now that there's no emblem for it? What's the motivation for getting to the 80-ring alcove high above GFZ2 as Sonic with some sick crawla bounces? The answer is "the satisfaction of having done it". If you don't get satisfaction from doing it, then don't.

"Why not just let everyone go super, though? Do you hate fun?" If you've gotten to this point, honestly, please just go grab any one of the numerous "all characters go super" addons in Releases and play the game the way you find fun. You don't have to let the vanilla game define how you play if you don't want to. That's the beauty of an easily-moddable game!

My main problem with this logic is that it doesn't treat all players equally in the vanilla game. Why should players who choose to play Sonic be rewarded, but players who only want to play Tails or Knuckles not be for doing the same work? This is doubly true in online coop, as players will feel as though they worked together towards the same goal, but only those playing as a particular character will actually get the reward.

Why shouldn't players be given a reward for obtaining all the emeralds as any character? You mention that getting the emeralds is just for the satisfaction, but why does this need to be the case? Sure, they are optional. You aren't required to go after them at all. That's all the more reason however to reward the player for going to all the trouble to obtain them. I would even go so far as to say there is no satisfaction for collecting the emeralds as a character without a reward for doing so, because there's no longer any tangible point to the endeavor. Why should I ever feel satisfied collecting the emeralds as Tails if I get nothing for it and know full well I would have if I was Sonic instead? The feeling I get instead is having done a lot of work for nothing, and it actually feels pretty terrible.

"Then grab one of the many numerous addons that are released!" This disables progression, you must restart the game without addons enabled for progression to count again. You could just use the custom gamesave addon to work around this, but at that point you are opening a whole can of worms I would rather not get into involving topics such as HMS.
 
My main problem with this logic is that it doesn't treat all players equally in the vanilla game. Why should players who choose to play Sonic be rewarded, but players who only want to play Tails or Knuckles not be for doing the same work? This is doubly true in online coop, as players will feel as though they worked together towards the same goal, but only those playing as a particular character will actually get the reward.
Sonic getting super works because Sonic is harder to play as than Tails or Knuckles. It's a fair point that the special stages themselves are now the same difficulty as anyone, but the campaign you have to play through when you're not in them is most challenging as Sonic. It seems fair to reward the player who took the extra challenge with a power boost that the others don't get, so long as this fact is made obvious. (I feel like I've said this before...)


Why shouldn't players be given a reward for obtaining all the emeralds as any character? You mention that getting the emeralds is just for the satisfaction, but why does this need to be the case? Sure, they are optional. You aren't required to go after them at all. That's all the more reason however to reward the player for going to all the trouble to obtain them. I would even go so far as to say there is no satisfaction for collecting the emeralds as a character without a reward for doing so, because there's no longer any tangible point to the endeavor. Why should I ever feel satisfied collecting the emeralds as Tails if I get nothing for it and know full well I would have if I was Sonic instead? The feeling I get instead is having done a lot of work for nothing, and it actually feels pretty terrible.
Well, technically you do get a reward for getting all the emeralds in your playthrough! An extra stage, which right now is more NiGHTS content. The difference is you meet that goal once and have it permanently, which means you don't really gain anything for doing it as someone besides Sonic, which I'll admit probably isn't a satisfying response.

I dunno. My solution would've been another unlockable level for everyone you got the emeralds as, but when I brought up a similar proposal before, the reason against it was that they didn't want to encourage grinding the same special stages multiple times, which is fair.

Maybe a potential solution is tying the emeralds to your gamedata instead of individual saves! Then you can get the emeralds as whoever you want, then go back and play as Super Sonic without having to gather them all over again. Considering the special stages don't change as other characters, and you can replay them in NiGHTS Attack anyway... And maybe it'd even reduce the feeling of having to grind GFZ1 for tokens if players could finish off their emerald collection in another character's playthrough instead?


"Then grab one of the many numerous addons that are released!" This disables progression, you must restart the game without addons enabled for progression to count again. You could just use the custom gamesave addon to work around this, but at that point you are opening a whole can of worms I would rather not get into involving topics such as HMS.
I addressed this in a later post. I don't think addons should disable progression. Changing that would benefit much more than just the super discussion, anyway. finally I can dab at every emblem I pick up
 
Sonic getting super works because Sonic is harder to play as than Tails or Knuckles. It's a fair point that the special stages themselves are now the same difficulty as anyone, but the campaign you have to play through when you're not in them is most challenging as Sonic. It seems fair to reward the player who took the extra challenge with a power boost that the others don't get, so long as this fact is made obvious. (I feel like I've said this before...)


Honestly this is subjective and depends on player experience. Before 2.2 came out, I was a Sonic main. As such, I actually have a lot harder time playing as Knuckles than I do playing as Sonic. I complete stages much faster as Sonic, maintain a better "flow" state as Sonic, and in general even get hit by enemies less, because his playstyle is the one I am most used to. In this regard, I actually consider Knuckles to be the hardest character. He's heavier, clunkier, and has a shorter jump. I do enjoy playing as Knuckles, but he's nowhere near as easy to play as compared to Sonic. More recently I have actually come to be more of an Amy and Metal Sonic main, since Metal Sonic is my favorite Sonic character and Amy's timing based playstyle is incredibly satisfying.


Well, technically you do get a reward for getting all the emeralds in your playthrough! An extra stage, which right now is more NiGHTS content. The difference is you meet that goal once and have it permanently, which means you don't really gain anything for doing it as someone besides Sonic, which I'll admit probably isn't a satisfying response.

I dunno. My solution would've been another unlockable level for everyone you got the emeralds as, but when I brought up a similar proposal before, the reason against it was that they didn't want to encourage grinding the same special stages multiple times, which is fair.

Maybe a potential solution is tying the emeralds to your gamedata instead of individual saves! Then you can get the emeralds as whoever you want, then go back and play as Super Sonic without having to gather them all over again. Considering the special stages don't change as other characters, and you can replay them in NiGHTS Attack anyway... And maybe it'd even reduce the feeling of having to grind GFZ1 for tokens if players could finish off their emerald collection in another character's playthrough instead?


Honestly just a level would still kinda feel like a hollow reward compared to Super Sonic. Tying emerald collection to global saves doesn't seem the right way to go either, as it brings up a number questions that could lead to controversy. For example, how do you prevent a player from just breezing through GFZ, getting four or five emeralds, starting a new save, and getting the remaining two or three? It also doesn't solve the problem of players who prefer to play as Tails or Knuckles (or the unlockables aside from Metal) and don't like playing as Sonic being unable to actually use the emeralds for anything after obtaining them.

At least under the current system, players have to actually clear the campaign before they can just spam GFZ for emeralds.


I addressed this in a later post. I don't think addons should disable progression. Changing that would benefit much more than just the super discussion, anyway. finally I can dab at every emblem I pick up

Honestly I actually do agree with addons disabling progression, aside from things like music replacements and the like. The reason for this is simple: A lot of addons also count as cheats. Progression is linked to unlockables, and unlockables are meant to be rewards. If someone really wants to cheat to obtain everything, they shouldn't be able to do so on their vanilla save file. You only cheated yourself, yada yada outdated meme.

It also begs the question of why the developers should even take the time to put unlockables behind doing certain tasks if people are just going to modify the game to obtain them easy mode. At least on something like the custom save addon, your vanilla progress is separate and therefore still has value.

I don't consider Super Forms to be cheats, because they are a traditional game mechanic locked behind a particular task that isn't necessarily the easiest thing to accomplish for everyone, and even then is locked behind a 50 ring requirement which then turns into a countdown timer after activation. That is to say, it is a powerup in one regard, but has drawbacks when you think about it. Cheats don't have to be earned, and have no such drawbacks.
 
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Okay, so I have to agree that Emeralds should remain tied to saves. It just would feel wrong to no longer have special stages, plus the aforementioned GFZ-spamming.
Personally, I think every character should have a super form, but with different attributes and maybe extra abilities. To me the argument of Sonic being harder is silly.

Character Selection should be a preference thing, with nothing being withheld from you due to character choice besides things like character paths, but even then, those enhance your experience by giving each character(or at least certain subsets of characters) something new to experience yet not only giving that character something. Each character might have a different experience, but they all have the same amount of experience. Except for Super Forms.

This is why I am all for what Mystic said about giving each character's Super Form its own identity that meshes with what the character already is. That follows that same idea of giving different experiences but ultimately the same amount of experience.

That would give a tangible per-playthrough reward for collecting all seven Emeralds as each player. Speaking of which, not to sound like a broken record, but if a Super boss is ever added, which is something I hear talked about a lot, but with no real source on if a dev ever said anything about it or if its the power of assumption, then all playable characters should have access to it.

I also agree that saving with certain mods would be neat, but then you have to ask the question of which mods should be allowed, and that's probably a whole other topic entirely
 
Tying emerald collection to global saves doesn't seem the right way to go either, as it brings up a number questions that could lead to controversy. For example, how do you prevent a player from just breezing through GFZ, getting four or five emeralds, starting a new save, and getting the remaining two or three?
How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one? This would require people to find different levels to explore for getting tokens, and wouldn't affect a typical "all emeralds in one playthrough" run at all.



It also doesn't solve the problem of players who prefer to play as Tails or Knuckles (or the unlockables aside from Metal) and don't like playing as Sonic being unable to actually use the emeralds for anything after obtaining them.

That's on them. You could also argue that gatekeeping certain paths behind Knuckles only is unfair to people who don't like playing as him. It's an incentive to play a different character. And considering Sonic is impossible to design exclusive paths for, having super as his incentive seems like a fair compromise.



Honestly I actually do agree with addons disabling progression, aside from things like music replacements and the like. The reason for this is simple: A lot of addons also count as cheats. Progression is linked to unlockables, and unlockables are meant to be rewards. If someone really wants to cheat to obtain everything, they shouldn't be able to do so on their vanilla save file. You only cheated yourself, yada yada outdated meme.
So? If someone wants to do that, why go through the trouble of stopping them? Especially if it blocks out using any and all game-modifying addons. It's a single-player game, and the only rewards you can transfer over to multiplayer are a few characters that aren't a big deal to unlock "early" if the player chooses to do that.


Okay, so I have to agree that Emeralds should remain tied to saves. It just would feel wrong to no longer have special stages, plus the aforementioned GFZ-spamming.
Then how about a "Keep Emeralds" toggle on the save screen, right above the file select? That would give people the option to play through and hunt emeralds again without making it required if people just wanna keep playing through the game. See above about GFZ-spamming, which could also be disabled if you aren't keeping emeralds.


Character Selection should be a preference thing, with nothing being withheld from you due to character choice besides things like character paths, but even then, those enhance your experience by giving each character(or at least certain subsets of characters) something new to experience yet not only giving that character something. Each character might have a different experience, but they all have the same amount of experience. Except for Super Forms.
The "amount" of experience super forms give you is subjective, but I disagree that "nothing should be withheld from you due to character choice". Limiting things to specific characters gives a reason to play as that character.


To put it another way, if everyone had super, what reason would there be left to play as Sonic? If you want to challenge yourself, Amy's more of a challenge.


I also agree that saving with certain mods would be neat, but then you have to ask the question of which mods should be allowed, and that's probably a whole other topic entirely
Why ask? Let anyone use whatever mod they want. Again, it's a single player experience. They're not ruining the game for anyone else. Maybe addons could have a way to mark themselves as "should not save", just for the sake of not messing with unsuspecting players' save files in something like a randomizer mod, but I think mod authors are responsible enough to decide that for themselves.
 
Well, some mods might alter unlockables or add maps in a way that might bork up save files if the game allowed them. Those are what would need to be filtered, not for cheat-protection, but for game-protection.

Also, I disagree that people should need incentive to play as Sonic. I like being Sonic(though I always do Sonic and Tails, because it feels nice to have the duo). Super forms have nothing to do with that decision, preference does. I do use Super Sonic once I get it, but that has nothing to do with my decision to pick him. In fact, his select screen doesn't even mention "oh, this character can go super."

You can't even go super as Sonic in Record Attack or ringslinger/race, so by that logic, shouldn't people never use Sonic there? But I'm pretty sure they do.

Also, I feel like unique Supers wouldn't invalidate Sonic even if that reasoning was true, because Super Sonic would still stand out at that point.

To me, all limiting it to Sonic does is feel like withholding from other characters what they should all do. I have a wad in my launch parameters on steam that gives everyone else SF_SUPER, and I for one still play as Sonic, and I feel immense satisfaction at the words

KNUCKLES GOT THEM ALL
NOW KNUCKLES CAN BECOME SUPER KNUCKLES

Either way, we should see what the devs come up with. I for one, am excited at the idea of individualized Supers. As fun as just giving everyone SF_SUPER is, the thought of each character doing it differently, even a little, and seeing that message and transforming for the first time, fanfare and all, is incredible.
 
To put it another way, if everyone had super, what reason would there be left to play as Sonic? If you want to challenge yourself, Amy's more of a challenge.
Well, because you like his play style, because his super has a hover ability that's enhanced by Sonic's Thok, Because sonic is the Title Character, because of the perception that his ending is the true ending (this is usually the case with Classic Sonic Games including Mania.)

I would be interested in what the devs come up with too, but if it excludes the basic formula instead of building off of it,
rlpdzbj.png
, then it's not a Super form, and it won't stop another Super topic from asking why everyone can't go super.
 
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I don't know why this topic is 13 pages long. I'm assuming it's just people bemoaning the lack of supers that is dragging on this discussion further than it ever needed to be. I had to stop reading partway through because there was just way too much.

For all of you saying "What reason do you have to get the chaos emeralds as X", you do realize the game isn't done yet, correct? 2.2 is by no means the finished final product, and acting like the lack of super or benefits of chaos emeralds is a mere oversight is just silly. There are ideas and plans on the works, you guys should probably not assume at this point that something like this is just accidentally missing something. We're not gonna put in a feature we think has a negative impact in order to tide people over until we get the next major version out. The Final Demo days are long gone.

The more direct answer to this question is "We didn't have good ideas for supers, multiple supers that are just speed + invincible + ability aren't interesting." Fickle is 100% correct when she says that you should mod the game if that's how you want to play. Our goal is to find the best general experience. Individual mileage will vary. Yes, we know the game doesn't save when modded but that's to prevent mods as cheats, and it's an unfortunate side effect of that but at this point, that's where we are.

We do not believe that supers are core to the gameplay experience and we think they do, in fact, detract from it if they're available to everyone in current form. If and when we find a way to implement them that we like and think works, we'll do so. But I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish by arguing for it over and over and over again. 13 pages of back-and-forth on this seems like a lot much to me, especially when some of the pages are bad faith arguments or borderline vitriol.

We've made a game that you're presumably all enjoying, would it be too much to ask to dial back some of the arguing and accept that, while you may not like a decision, there might be some basis for that decision, whether or not you agree with if? I'm not saying you can't express disappointment, but this is just overly circular and unnecessarily heated over, really, something that's not all that important overall in the game.
 
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How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one? This would require people to find different levels to explore for getting tokens, and wouldn't affect a typical "all emeralds in one playthrough" run at all.


That's on them. You could also argue that gatekeeping certain paths behind Knuckles only is unfair to people who don't like playing as him. It's an incentive to play a different character. And considering Sonic is impossible to design exclusive paths for, having super as his incentive seems like a fair compromise.


So? If someone wants to do that, why go through the trouble of stopping them? Especially if it blocks out using any and all game-modifying addons. It's a single-player game, and the only rewards you can transfer over to multiplayer are a few characters that aren't a big deal to unlock "early" if the player chooses to do that.


Then how about a "Keep Emeralds" toggle on the save screen, right above the file select? That would give people the option to play through and hunt emeralds again without making it required if people just wanna keep playing through the game. See above about GFZ-spamming, which could also be disabled if you aren't keeping emeralds.


To put it another way, if everyone had super, what reason would there be left to play as Sonic? If you want to challenge yourself, Amy's more of a challenge.


Why ask? Let anyone use whatever mod they want. Again, it's a single player experience. They're not ruining the game for anyone else. Maybe addons could have a way to mark themselves as "should not save", just for the sake of not messing with unsuspecting players' save files in something like a randomizer mod, but I think mod authors are responsible enough to decide that for themselves.

"How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one?"

This would actually actively make collecting the emeralds harder than it needs to be, because every zone you have already collected an emerald in would lock you off from the multiple chances to get another. In a sense, it punishes the player for doing well, which is backwards design logic.

"You could also argue that gatekeeping certain paths behind Knuckles only is unfair to people who don't like playing as him."

If you don't like playing as Knuckles, why would you like playing on Knuckles specific pathways? They are designed around... You know, playing as Knuckles.

"So? If someone wants to do that, why go through the trouble of stopping them?"

As I mentioned before, a save file's progress has value. If you make it too easy to cheat your way to unlocking everything, there's no longer a reason from a design standpoint to even lock everything behind unlockables to begin with. You might as well just have all the unlockables unlocked from the start for everyone, because the value of unlocking them has been devalued so much. This is why most games in the genre don't have an easy "Unlock everything" cheat code or the like, but something like a Kart Racer does.

Determined cheaters are going to cheat regardless, but keeping things locked behind strict tasks with no tolerance for cheating preserves the value of completing those tasks for those who wish to do things legit.

"Then how about a "Keep Emeralds" toggle on the save screen, right above the file select?"

At this point you are just straying closer to the system we already have in place for emerald collection, which works quite well. Why would anyone ever use the "Keep Emeralds" toggle when they keep the emeralds they have already collected on their chosen character anyway, and can go back through the campaign on the same save file to find the ones they are missing? The only added benefit would be not having to collect them again when they try a new character, but I actually do see that as a sort of cheat since you no longer are incentivised to play that character properly before being given the reward.

"To put it another way, if everyone had super, what reason would there be left to play as Sonic?"

Sonic is the only one who can become Super Sonic. Super Sonic is not Super Tails, or Super Knuckles, or Super Amy. He has a unique moveset, he plays as differently from other Super Forms as base characters play from each other.

"Why ask? Let anyone use whatever mod they want. Again, it's a single player experience. They're not ruining the game for anyone else."

I answered this already in the portion in which I discuss the value of a save file and progression being designed around unlockables having strict tasks applied to them.

To address the "They're not ruining the game for anyone else" portion in specific though, this is a tired old excuse I see people make about cheating in single player games a lot. The problem is as I mentioned before, determined cheaters will cheat regardless. However, if you do not safeguard against cheating, it counts as incentive to cheat. It's basically telling the player "Hey are you having trouble unlocking that certain thing? Well why don't you just take it anyway? Nobody is looking."

Game designers have no reason to spoil their players when the entire point behind an unlockable is that it's hard to get. If you can't earn it legit, you don't deserve to have it. Sure, you can just cheat to get it, but that should never be encouraged. Otherwise, the process of obtaining it legit is devalued. Doing things the right way becomes "bragging rights", which is never how something like a platformer should handle progression.
 
I don't know why this topic is 13 pages long. I'm assuming it's just people bemoaning the lack of supers that is dragging on this discussion further than it ever needed to be. I had to stop reading partway through because there was just way too much.

There was a page or two that actually had very interesting and constructive discussion about what were some of the ways getting all the chaos emeralds could be made more diverse for other characters... including something about Fang riding a motorcycle. Looks like it got buried again by people still picking apart Mystic's first couple responses.

And by the way, add me to the imaginary list of people that really likes the idea of Fang selling off the emeralds to get a motorcycle.
 
Plus Amy being harder than Sonic to play with

Disagreed, on the sole basis that Amy is easier to platform with than Sonic.

Again, with Metal Sonic I can see it making sense because he's New Game + content.

Nah, that's not enough IMO. If Metal has any reason to receive special treatment over everyone besides Sonic, it's because his playstyle for whatever reason doesn't incentivize another playthrough without being able to go Super. Metal is not hard character, so the fact that that might be the case says more about how generic and unappealing his design is than anything else. And in the end, all it does is make him play even more identically to Sonic.


Honestly this is subjective and depends on player experience. Before 2.2 came out, I was a Sonic main. As such, I actually have a lot harder time playing as Knuckles than I do playing as Sonic. I complete stages much faster as Sonic, maintain a better "flow" state as Sonic, and in general even get hit by enemies less, because his playstyle is the one I am most used to. In this regard, I actually consider Knuckles to be the hardest character. He's heavier, clunkier, and has a shorter jump. I do enjoy playing as Knuckles, but he's nowhere near as easy to play as compared to Sonic. More recently I have actually come to be more of an Amy and Metal Sonic main, since Metal Sonic is my favorite Sonic character and Amy's timing based playstyle is incredibly satisfying.

I strongly disagree that Knuckles is harder than Sonic, on the basis that Knuckles is also better at platforming than Sonic is, even with his reduced jump height. That being said, I also think his playstyle and routing restrictions bring enough challenge to it, and his core gameplay work off enough of the same elements as Sonic, that it might merit a reward that is at least similar in nature to Super.

Okay, so I have to agree that Emeralds should remain tied to saves. It just would feel wrong to no longer have special stages, plus the aforementioned GFZ-spamming.

The only problem with this is that all characters play homogenously in special stages, and since we have six characters, having to replay special stages that many time could get really old. You could at least argue that with the Final Demo / multiplayer format, every character goes through those stages in different ways, but in the NiGHTS format progression is generally a lot more static.

If everyone does receive a reward for collecting all emeralds, then I believe that reward should be shared. I think the best way to go about this would be to reward the player with a universal level select with all emeralds once the player reaches the good ending on one of his save files.

How about disabling tokens in stages where you already successfully cleared at least one special stage after getting one? This would require people to find different levels to explore for getting tokens, and wouldn't affect a typical "all emeralds in one playthrough" run at all.

For the record, I don't think emeralds should be tied to global saves until all emeralds are found. But even if we were to attempt this at the local save level, I don't think it would be a good idea. If the player continues to fail special stages, then this means that with every attempt he will run out of spaces to find tokens until he eventually collects all tokens. Even if we were to reset the tokens once this happens, the issue is that then the player is forced to struggle to figure out which emerald tokens he missed, and this could take a long time if he ever finds those tokens at all.

The issue of farming the same big ring after the game is cleared is one that's present in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but if the player is desperate enough that he feels the need to do that, then that's an issue that I think we can let slide. I think we're trying too hard to create the perfect solution here, where the important thing is simply that the player feels rewarded for completing the special stages and isn't forced into doing busy-work arbitrarily.

I would be interested in what the devs come up with too, but if it excludes the basic formula instead of building off of it,
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, then it's not a Super form, and it won't stop another Super topic from asking why everyone can't go super.

This doesn't feel like much of a valid argument, and to the extent that it is, I'm inclined to disagree anyway. Players want to be rewarded for their hard work in collecting all the emeralds. That is the core issue here. We'll get a topic or two asking why transformations / emerald rewards are different from the mainline Sonic games, but there is a difference between someone asking this out of curiosity and asking it because they want the standard supers on their character.

And by the way, add me to the imaginary list of people that really likes the idea of Fang selling off the emeralds to get a motorcycle.

Don't worry, I think this sentiment is basically unanimous. lol
 
Yes, we know the game doesn't save when modded but that's to prevent mods as cheats, and it's an unfortunate side effect of that but at this point, that's where we are.

To go into more detail that I didn't think was necessary, until you just said this: I full-heartedly have always believed that the developers using "you can just mod it, who cares about our decision" as an excuse crumbles into tiny pieces when there are legitimate downsides to modding. I'd honestly love more than anything to just mod the game forever and never care ever again about what vanilla's doing, but you cannot ignore the downsides. The fact that the gamedata exploit is literally in Releases right now, and anyone can download it, is proof enough that this system does not work.

This is another reason why, earlier in the thread, I was saying that hearing "we're not gonna change it just cuz we like it" would be way easier to stomach than trying to justify it with reasoning that the game itself contradicts -- how the game treats modding directly contradicts with the "just mod it if you care so much" saying. Hell, Everyone Goes Super mods I'm positive only really gets used in multiplayer, because being unable to save your Chaos Emeralds reduces the utility of it, and everyone's arguing over it because the game's telling them how it "should" be!

I've always felt like no emblems, no save files, and anti-cheat measures in... hell, any offline game in general, is just the equivalent of telling a kid "you can't play with your action figures like that, you can't make Man-E-Faces fight Super Krang, that's wrong." Does anyone legitimately care if someone that they don't even know adds HMS and flies through the whole game? The people who want to preserve the challenge won't download HMS in the first place, so why should they care about what other people are doing? That'd be pretty nosy of them, y'know.

I can only see the validity of anti-cheat measures in Record Attack, and even then I still think you should be allowed to play the mode and get its emblems. Maybe even go as far to record demos; it could just have some sort of flag to mark demos that have add-ons, to keep a potential Records website fair. I mean, that's even literally what Kart does!
 
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Disagreed, on the sole basis that Amy is easier to platform with than Sonic.



Nah, that's not enough IMO. If Metal has any reason to receive special treatment over everyone besides Sonic, it's because his playstyle for whatever reason doesn't incentivize another playthrough without being able to go Super. Metal is not hard character, so the fact that that might be the case says more about how generic and unappealing his design is than anything else. And in the end, all it does is make him play even more identically to Sonic.




I strongly disagree that Knuckles is harder than Sonic, on the basis that Knuckles is also better at platforming than Sonic is, even with his reduced jump height. That being said, I also think his playstyle and routing restrictions bring enough challenge to it, and his core gameplay work off enough of the same elements as Sonic, that it might merit a reward that is at least similar in nature to Super.



The only problem with this is that all characters play homogenously in special stages, and since we have six characters, having to replay special stages that many time could get really old. You could at least argue that with the Final Demo / multiplayer format, every character goes through those stages in different ways, but in the NiGHTS format progression is generally a lot more static.

If everyone does receive a reward for collecting all emeralds, then I believe that reward should be shared. I think the best way to go about this would be to reward the player with a universal level select with all emeralds once the player reaches the good ending on one of his save files.



For the record, I don't think emeralds should be tied to global saves until all emeralds are found. But even if we were to attempt this at the local save level, I don't think it would be a good idea. If the player continues to fail special stages, then this means that with every attempt he will run out of spaces to find tokens until he eventually collects all tokens. Even if we were to reset the tokens once this happens, the issue is that then the player is forced to struggle to figure out which emerald tokens he missed, and this could take a long time if he ever finds those tokens at all.

The issue of farming the same big ring after the game is cleared is one that's present in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but if the player is desperate enough that he feels the need to do that, then that's an issue that I think we can let slide. I think we're trying too hard to create the perfect solution here, where the important thing is simply that the player feels rewarded for completing the special stages and isn't forced into doing busy-work arbitrarily.



This doesn't feel like much of a valid argument, and to the extent that it is, I'm inclined to disagree anyway. Players want to be rewarded for their hard work in collecting all the emeralds. That is the core issue here. We'll get a topic or two asking why transformations / emerald rewards are different from the mainline Sonic games, but there is a difference between someone asking this out of curiosity and asking it because they want the standard supers on their character.



Don't worry, I think this sentiment is basically unanimous. lol

I think the universal level select would work. I just don't want emeralds to not be tied to save files and thus only be collected once and never again. Especially since we now have multiple endings. I feel like emeralds should remain on a per save basis, but the unlockable level select in secrets? Sure.
 
This doesn't feel like much of a valid argument, and to the extent that it is, I'm inclined to disagree anyway. Players want to be rewarded for their hard work in collecting all the emeralds. That is the core issue here. We'll get a topic or two asking why transformations / emerald rewards are different from the mainline Sonic games, but there is a difference between someone asking this out of curiosity and asking it because they want the standard supers on their character.
Well this was more a point that if the reward isn't what's expected, we're back to were we are on super again. Just like we were in 2006!
https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=18466
 
I feel like I addressed this point of yours already, and I'm not intent on driving this argument in circles.
 

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