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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #21
Phanthonas
 
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I've been playing around with Fang for a bit in record attack and have noticed Fang feels quite sluggish compared to other characters. His ability could have lots of speedrunning potential with the way you can gain tons of speed in ways such as bouncing off of horizontal springs and slopes/half-pipes or earning extra height by bouncing onto lower ground. I'd like for this potential to be more of a focus in Fang's gameplay, I think it could be a really fun and unique way to clearly levels quickly and keeping up with the other characters in his own way, but the issues with the bounce comes from how it has restricted control over both horizontal and vertical movement (especially the horizontal movement), and having all momentum cancelled every time you start or cancel his ability. All because of these factors, you're just better off just running and jumping normally through levels more often than bouncing your way through level segments, and the bounce is very underutilized as a result. Usually you'll only find yourself using it to reach somewhere you couldn't with a normal jump.
Often times when I attempt to use the bounce when speedrunning a level, I find myself hitting a wall or missing a platform/object i'm trying to land on whether it because of Fang not having any control over his vertical height or it being difficult to turn in another direction while bouncing.
When under these circumstances, i'm often forced to slow down and go back to bouncing at crawling speeds.

Here's my input on what i'd like to see changed about Fang's ability.

I'd suggest removing the momentum cancel, let him have no restrictions on horizontal control so he can maneuver in the air much more effectively and in place of the forced momentum cancel, maybe implement a option to descend faster by pressing the spin key in the bounce state, similar to what Tails flight has.
I think this would allow him to reach land and having more control over how high or low you'd want to bounce in a much more quick and efficient manner and would allow you to avoid smacking into obstacles and getting under low ceilings without needing to stop all speed and control.

With these changes (might need some tweaks and adjustments) I think his ability would be more versatile, more fun to use and allow for more speedrunning options and tactics for Fang to keep up with the other characters.

Last edited by Phanthonas; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:10 AM.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #22
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I don't have any real complaints with Fang's bounce, it's fun to use, the reduced air control feels smooth, bounding high over terrain and landing with the little pause between bounces feels great, and weighing up when and when not to use it in regards to speedrunning is engaging.

My one niggle is that currently I find myself trying to double jump as late as possible in a jump because it feels faster, and I'm not sure if it actually saves time or not. It would be nice if instead of double jump lowering momentum in the air, the first bounce lowered it during the landing (before the acceleration from bouncing is added, not after), but I'm aware that removes the utility the momentum loss gives to landing precision, and the low air control while in bounce state exacerbates that.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanthonas View Post
I think it could be a really fun and unique way to clearly levels quickly and keeping up with the other characters in his own way, but the issues with the bounce comes from how it has restricted control over both horizontal and vertical movement (especially the horizontal movement), and having all momentum cancelled every time you start or cancel his ability. All because of these factors, you're just better off just running and jumping normally through levels more often than bouncing your way through level segments, and the bounce is very underutilized as a result.
I believe you're missing the point here.



The momentum loss associated with entering/exiting a bounce is minimized by...not entering/exiting bounces all the time. With the existing system, every chained bounce Fang performs is essentially momentum saved that would have otherwise been lost if Fang had left and reentered his bounce state. It rewards wrangling with the more difficult control scheme during a bounce. If there wasn't a momentum penalty for entering a bounce, Fang wouldn't have any reason to pull off these chains.

Momentum isn't 'cancelled', either. If it were, there wouldn't be much reason to get a running start before starting a bounce. One just takes a small loss when starting/stopping. Fang accelerates deliberately slowly while bouncing, so it's always best to do a running start before a bounce; something that wouldn't be worthwhile if the bounce 'cancelled' momentum.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #24
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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
I believe you're missing the point here.



The momentum loss associated with entering/exiting a bounce is minimized by...not entering/exiting bounces all the time. With the existing system, every chained bounce Fang performs is essentially momentum saved that would have otherwise been lost if Fang had left and reentered his bounce state. It rewards wrangling with the more difficult control scheme during a bounce. If there wasn't a momentum penalty for entering a bounce, Fang wouldn't have any reason to pull off these chains.

Momentum isn't 'cancelled', either. If it were, there wouldn't be much reason to get a running start before starting a bounce. One just takes a small loss when starting/stopping. Fang accelerates deliberately slowly while bouncing, so it's always best to do a running start before a bounce; something that wouldn't be worthwhile if the bounce 'cancelled' momentum.
I agree with you - what if you need to stop mid-air with Fang? It sometimes occurs when platforming, you miscalculate something and the only way to save is losing most of the momentum.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #25
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Funnily enough before you posted this, i've been trying out different modifications with Fang and I tried one that had the momentum lost removed from both bounce activation/deactivation and ironically, I found it more harder to control him that way and found him even more slower and difficult to play than without said mod added. I am playing with another modification that does nerf the momentum loss on bounce activation, but keeps the deactivation momentum loss, which is very useful and a good compromise. The momentum loss helps with repositioning yourself when exiting out of bounce. With that i've started to have a more clear indictation that momentum loss upon deactivating was not the issue and is actually benefical to the gameplay, it's just sitting on top of other gripes I have with him that made me feel that way. (heck, I play a lot of Knuckles and don't even find the crouch much of a crutch and a bit helpful in a similar fashion) I have mostly an issue over the lack of a way to descend faster (This makes the pace of bouncing very sluggish most of the time), the stiffer controls over movement can be annoying when you're bouncing at quick speeds which makes it difficult to move into another direction. But I think Fang mainly needs the option to use spin key to descend faster so he can reach ground far more quicker. For instance, if he were to bounce too high and end up falling too slowly to reach a platform, or if he's bouncing and is about to hit a wall above a ceiling, he could react in time by simply holding down spin to stop going up and drop down quicker, rather than needing to make a complete stop mid-air while you slowly fall and lose all the momentum you built up.

Last edited by Phanthonas; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:37 PM.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #26
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Knuckles crouch might be disgusting - but imagine falling and just start run like nothing happened, it only happens in modern based Sonic games... Look at the first Knuckles appearance in games; Sonic 3 and Knuckles had the crouch.
I don't think Fang, Knuckles are the type of character you use to build momentum and go faster than Sonic; they have that sense of exploration - you slow down and find a new path or you are looking for emblems.
If you ask me, when I want to go fast I go for Tails, Sonic, Metal and Amy; never think of Knuckles and Fang. Maybe it's just me.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #27
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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
I believe you're missing the point here.
So the problem with this is bouncing isn't any faster than a normally running Fang. Even with a slope added in, it's much faster than if Fang just normally jumped off the slope. This is combine with the fact that every time you bounce, Fang stops for a bit to do the bounce animation. And to top it all off, you have far better movement when just running so you can take corners faster.

Trust me, I've put a ton of time into running Fang and while he isn't a complete slog, bounce literally only ever is useful as a means to get somewhere normal jumps can't or is used because he needs to have something to replace bouncing off monitors/enemies that the other 5 characters can do with ease.

Now this isn't to say Fang should be balanced like the other characters. In fact his uniqueness is part of what makes the character charming. It's just that Fang has so many little things that make him just that much worse, they all stack up and make Fang's abilities almost annoying to use.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #28
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Originally Posted by LunickTMM View Post
So the problem with this is bouncing isn't any faster than a normally running Fang. Even with a slope added in, it's much faster than if Fang just normally jumped off the slope. This is combine with the fact that every time you bounce, Fang stops for a bit to do the bounce animation. And to top it all off, you have far better movement when just running so you can take corners faster.
Fang can't jump over half the level while running. Tails doesn't go any faster while flying than he does while running, but he's still the fastest speedrun character for most of the stages.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #29
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Fang can't jump over half the level while running. Tails doesn't go any faster while flying than he does while running, but he's still the fastest speedrun character for most of the stages.
That's because Tails combines the ludicrous speed of a spin dash with the mobility of flight. Fang can't spin dash so he's already slower in that department. Add in Fang has extremely poor air mobility while bouncing and you can't take turns fast at all. And again, every time you bounce, you lose a little bit of time due to needing the animation to play out.

This means running will always be superior when just speed is involved. Bounce is only useful when there is a ledge you can't reach that bouncing trivializes.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #30
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This means running will always be superior when just speed is involved. Bounce is only useful when there is a ledge you can't reach that bouncing trivializes.
What levels in SRB2 are 'just speed'? This is a platformer, not a racer.

Edit: Looking at your speedruns, it looks like the biggest issue with the bounce is needing to cancel it to shoot Super Sneakers.

Last edited by Magnemania; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:55 PM.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #31
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I wish Fang wasn't being forgotten by Sega themselves as well...
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #32
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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
What levels in SRB2 are 'just speed'? This is a platformer, not a racer.

Edit: Looking at your speedruns, it looks like the biggest issue with the bounce is needing to cancel it to shoot Super Sneakers.
What I mean by "just speed" is running forward, turning, and basic platforming. Essentially, if there was a long runway with no jumps, regular running Fang would be bouncing Fang.

If turns are involved, running Fang leaves bouncing Fang in the dust.

If just basic platforming is involved, running and standard jumps beat out bouncing.

However if there is an enemy it monitor to bounce off, the tail bounce is of course very important, such as the ACZ1 route.

If there is a path that tail bounce helps skip, then it is faster, such as how it's used in THZ1 and THZ2. But if you notice in those stages, it's better to go out of your way to use the spring bots and I'm THZ2 the wind shield just obsoletes the bounce all together.

The point I'm trying to make isn't that I think bounce is completely terrible. It's interesting to route around, but it's definitely slower to use it than to just run whenever you don't have to. The best example of this is GFZ1. At the start you can jump up the waterfall with a spring bounce, but it's faster to jump off the 10 ring monitor platform and get up the waterfall that way. I just wish bounce had more control in the air movement so when you want to chain bounces, it allows more adjusting I'm the air. This would help Fang not be so rigid and would entice consecutive bounces.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #33
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In my personal opinion,

I think Fang is probably the worst unlockable character. Sure, he's novel, but I much would have preferred Mighty or Ray, or someone else from the Chaotix. He's a welcome addition to the roster, but I hope in 2.3 we get a new character. (Hint hint, I really like Mighty and Ray.)

I don't think Fang is very rewarding to master the gameplay of. For starters, he mostly just skips a lot of stuff with his tail bounce, but offensively, he's garbage. His gun is pitifully weak against badniks, and with bosses you can just cheese the whole thing. The bounce is too big of a tradeoff for his lack of offense.

I don't like Fang's alternate routes. They're mostly Amy's, just less fun to play.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #34
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Sure, he's novel, but I much would have preferred Mighty or Ray, or someone else from the Chaotix. He's a welcome addition to the roster, but I hope in 2.3 we get a new character. (Hint hint, I really like Mighty and Ray.)
You can still get those via mods. I don't think adding any new character in vanilla would be good if mods are already there.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #35
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but offensively, he's garbage.
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and with bosses you can just cheese the whole thing.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #36
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I get what he's saying. VS a swarm of enemies, Fang is rather worthless. However he cripples every boss since the risk of getting rushed at isn't a danger.

That being said, that's his design for a reason. Every other character fights enemies the exact same way: spinning into them. Even Amy is subject to this, somewhat. But again this makes mobs trivial.

And I still don't understand this idea that Fang skips so much with his bounce. There's a decent amount, but it's not like he's skipping whole levels like tails or knuckles.
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