SRB2 Message Board  

Go Back   SRB2 Message Board > Sonic Robo Blast 2 > SRB2 Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1 Week Ago   #41
NAR the Fox
Self-taught Lua Amateur
 
NAR the Fox's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
I had problems with the thok mostly because I was using a controller. It's alot easier with keyboard and mouse but it's still hard to get used to. I can understand why most people are very turned off by the thok especially people who are interested in playing the game with a controller. If SRB2 wants to be more controller and newcomer friendly, the thok has to be changed or replaced.
The entire reason why SRB2 is geared towards people who play with a keyboard and mouse is actually because it's based off of Doom Legacy, which is a source port of DOOM (The 1995 version, not the 2016 one). In DOOM, the only way to control Doomguy was with the keyboard and mouse. See where this is going?
Basically, SRB2 wasn't originally made with controller support in mind, and even though they added it a bit down the line, it's still not perfect. Personally, if you're having problems with controls, you may need to get used to them before practicing the thok.
__________________
You can just call me "NARbluebear"
My YouTube Channel
NAR the Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #42
SilverVortex
 
SilverVortex's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
I had problems with the thok mostly because I was using a controller. It's alot easier with keyboard and mouse but it's still hard to get used to. I can understand why most people are very turned off by the thok especially people who are interested in playing the game with a controller. If SRB2 wants to be more controller and newcomer friendly, the thok has to be changed or replaced.

I also think the thok is somewhat boring but this is a personal opinion divorced from my prior statements.
i think the reason you and many beginners who aren't a fan of the thok is because it's not overall the best tool for the first few levels, or at least until the player gets to grips with the controls, because usually the first time through a sonic game, especially a 3d one like srb2, one would just take it slow and process everything in the levels. the thok is made for high speed gameplay, which, yeah, is what sonic is, but like i said, people who take it slow initially would probably get turned off by the thok.
if the thok were to be temporarily or permanently replaced though it would break up the speedrunning community because of how useful the move is in speedruns (for reasons i mentioned earlier).
i'd personally suggest the devs do what they think could be the right move, but personally i'd like something along the lines of pointy sonic's double jump; since its speed is determined by pre-existing momentum it would be useful for correctional jumps for beginners but also for speedrunners as a way to cut corners without losing speed.
really if you think about it it's just a momentum based jump thok lmao
SilverVortex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #43
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAR the Fox View Post
The entire reason why SRB2 is geared towards people who play with a keyboard and mouse is actually because it's based off of Doom Legacy, which is a source port of DOOM (The 1995 version, not the 2016 one). In DOOM, the only way to control Doomguy was with the keyboard and mouse.
Yeah I know. The point is that SRB2 is more than just Doom Legacy (at least that's how I think you guys view it); either it has moved on from that or has never been that conceptually in the first place. The issues of floatiness, slippery controls, and, until recently, no slopes were/are considered to be problems that SRB2 needs to overcome, not something it resigns itself to.

I also don't have an issue with the controls, I do have an issue playing with a controller and, if I didn't have plenty of FPS experience on PC, I probably would've been disoriented playing the game (this is if I were completely new to SRB2). There's a reason why there is data that the thok is hard to control for newcomers.

---------- Post added at 03:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverVortex View Post
i think the reason you and many beginners who aren't a fan of the thok is because it's not overall the best tool for the first few levels, or at least until the player gets to grips with the controls, because usually the first time through a sonic game, especially a 3d one like srb2, one would just take it slow and process everything in the levels. the thok is made for high speed gameplay, which, yeah, is what sonic is, but like i said, people who take it slow initially would probably get turned off by the thok.
The issue isn't that people start slow (I personally played it like a sonic game and tried to speedrun it on my first try), the issue is that the thok is basically a burst of speed or a midair dash. This seems easy for newcomers on the surface since we already have plenty of examples of such a thing in 2D games but you have to remember that, in 2D games, you can visually see the full trajectory of your dash. This means that distance can be easily taken into consideration when preforming a dash move. All the conditions that could effect the success of the dash move are observable on the screen.

Since SRB2 is 3D, you need to feel out the thok, how far it can go, predict whether or not you'd actually land on the platform you're dashing towards. Combined with the floatiness of the movement it's clear why newcomers are intimidated by Sonic and prefer much more safer characters like Tails or Knuckles.

Quote:
if the thok were to be temporarily or permanently replaced though it would break up the speedrunning community because of how useful the move is in speedruns (for reasons i mentioned earlier).
i'd personally suggest the devs do what they think could be the right move, but personally i'd like something along the lines of pointy sonic's double jump; since its speed is determined by pre-existing momentum it would be useful for correctional jumps for beginners but also for speedrunners as a way to cut corners without losing speed.
really if you think about it it's just a momentum based jump thok lmao
You could give the thok to a different character or create a new one entirely.
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #44
Charonik08
No Charks in this pool!
 
Charonik08's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
Yes, although Thok in concept is simple and pretty-straightforward in terms of how to use it, in my opinion, the skill gap between newcomers and more advanced players is way too big due to how the recklessness of the Thok’s viability is hard to get used to, therefore making it difficult for newcomers to adapt to the more advanced side of things.

The player should be able to figure out the versatility of the Thok by experimenting, not by watching some guide of a speedrunner who’s played the game for far longer than the player has just to get some idea of how to do such advance maneuvers, but worse yet, struggle realizing that the way they most likely used the Thok (I.G spamming it to get great amounts of speed) is not (or at least, in a most areas of the game) the most efficient way of passing through said levels.

This might seem like a good thing, but that only raises the skill gap even more, as now, players instead of learning the ability and using it on the fly to find new and exciting ways the beat the levels, is now memorizing everyplace where the Thok can be taken advantage of without experimenting and finding the true potential of the Thok by themselves. This exact same experience happened to me and even though I’ve played a bunch of SRB2 before 2.2 was released, I still couldn’t wrap my head around the 4-5 months of using Sonic and practicing all the different zones. Even now after being a bit more experienced with the gimmicks and versatility, I find myself struggling in certain sections to realize the full potential of the Thok. This in turn, frustrating newcomers and leading them to play another character.

Trust me, I’m a fan of the Thok too, and I love the idea of moving it to someone else. (preferably a new character as I think Metal should stay unique with his hover ability) Although taking Sonic’s ability completely away from his is definitely not the correct choice, something like the SA2 Bounce or Derp’s Bounce or even my personal favorite, the Rebound Dash, are all abilities that have great vertical versatility and most importantly, feel great in motion. I’ve played with all three of these and unlike the Thok, I found myself improvising a lot more and being rewarded for using my knowledge of the ability correctly.

Sonic in general needs that vertical moment, and staying with the Thok (although I love it so much) is just not the right move.
__________________
What are you doing? Wait, stop, donít boop us! We arenít boop resistant!
Charonik08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #45
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charonik08 View Post
something like the SA2 Bounce or Derpís Bounce or even my personal favorite, the Rebound Dash, are all abilities that have great vertical versatility and most importantly, feel great in motion. Iíve played with all three of these and unlike the Thok, I found myself improvising a lot more and being rewarded for using my knowledge of the ability correctly.
Side note, is there a way to combine the bounce with the rebound dash? I've mentioned this before in the thread (I didn't know the name of the ability though).
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #46
Goldenhog
Wandering Protagonist
 
Goldenhog's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
Most people are gonna want their instant gratification. They'll likely skip the tutorial cuz ain't nobody's got time for that, they'll want to play as Sonic because he's the cool guy and also in the game's title and also the first option in the Character Select screen, and they'll want to use the thok because haha fast sonic go thokthokthokthok. Maybe I'm just a cynical old man yelling at the clouds but that's how things seem like to me. Thus, moving the thok to another character is totally warranted, IMO.

My vote for what Sonic's ability should be is still the Arc Jump from Katmint's rebalancing mod - it's a double jump, but with increased air control, slowfall if you hold the button, and can chain into shield abilities so it doesn't obsolete the Whirlwind Jump. But the devs are apparently working on a complete revamp to the game's physics, maybe they'll come up with the definitive ability along the way.

Why Espio? Vector was the one with the thok-like move in Knuckles Chaotix...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi Asagiri
I need power over the people! The stupid, STUPID people!
Goldenhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #47
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenhog View Post
Why Espio? Vector was the one with the thok-like move in Knuckles Chaotix...
From a character standpoint, he makes the most sense to me. Espio is a ninja, and ninja's are commonly depicted as speedy characters who strike enemies quickly and re-gain distance just as quick. As such, the thok fits the theme quite nicely.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #48
Boost
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenhog
and also the first option in the Character Select screen
Correction: the first option in Character Select screen is Sonic&Tails
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenhog
Why Espio? Vector was the one with the thok-like move in Knuckles Chaotix...
Whatever happened in Chaotix, stayed in Chaotix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear
Espio is a ninja, and ninja's are commonly depicted as speedy characters who strike enemies quickly and re-gain distance just as quick.
Eh, this one is questionable... Sure, ninjas are depicted like that, but that is entertainment. Surely the audience wouldn't be excited watching a random guy in dull clothes waiting for hours for something to happen.
Espio himself was known to have wall/ceiling cling and "Ninja Arts: Camouflage!".
Quote:
What if we gave Sonic no ability?
Frankly speaking, it would be awful. We want Sonic to be easier to play as, not harder. With that said I don't think I can add anything of value to this discussion. Sure, getting used to thok is difficult, experimenting and stuff...
Nothing prevents you from not spamming thok as if jump was the only button in the game, right? You thok in the first stage, you fall into a pool of water or something, you climb out of it, you should be able to avoid the same mistake, right?
Boost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #49
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
Nothing prevents you from not spamming thok as if jump was the only button in the game, right? You thok in the first stage, you fall into a pool of water or something, you climb out of it, you should be able to avoid the same mistake, right?
Newcomers do not operate in that sort of systematic way and there's more to thok than just not spamming it. Hell, even what you're saying (i.e. using it at the right time) requires tons of practice to figure out because you need to know how far the thok can take you, it's trajectory, etc.

And this is assuming that a newcomer would recognize that they can't spam thok, pause the game, and think about how to use it instead of just quitting the game since they can't get a handle on how it's supposed to work. If your game needs newcomers to sit and think really hard about the right way to use an ability, that's a high skill floor.

So you have to ask yourself, do you want SRB2 to be that sort of game? Or, rather, do you want Sonic to be that sort of character? Sonic, the guy who newcomers would view as the pick-up-and-play sort of character. Do you want Sonic to be the character which requires meta analysis of the game? Why not give that to some other character that can only be played after you're guaranteed that the player has mastered the fundamentals of the game?
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #50
Charonik08
No Charks in this pool!
 
Charonik08's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
Side note, is there a way to combine the bounce with the rebound dash? I've mentioned this before in the thread (I didn't know the name of the ability though).
I havenít tested this out, but it may be possible to use both addons at the same time. (talking about SA2 Bounce sense Derp is a separate character unless someone makes a custom Lua for Sonic using said ability) If youíd want it more to be just an air ability instead of a Shield and Air button ability than it could get more complicated than that, as it would then have to trigger the Rebound Dash... Dash whenever it registers your position to be next to a wall. I havenít delved into coding much myself, but it seems challenging enough and may not be so intuitive for newcomers who wouldnít notice at first glance that you can bounce off walls if youíre right next to them. Though I do think this would be so cool to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
Frankly speaking, it would be awful. We want Sonic to be easier to play as, not harder. With that said I don't think I can add anything of value to this discussion. Sure, getting used to thok is difficult, experimenting and stuff...
Nothing prevents you from not spamming thok as if jump was the only button in the game, right? You thok in the first stage, you fall into a pool of water or something, you climb out of it, you should be able to avoid the same mistake, right?
I guess, but I feel like Sonicís main motive should be going fast (obviously) and having an air ability that speeds him up is good... but then you start using it recklessly and once you learnt that most of the time when you use the Thok you fail miserably because you donít have enough experience, youíll not continue using it for the fear of Thokíing into a bottomless pit or anything else really. Thatís why I offer the solution of giving him a ability that feels good in motion and is really fluid mid-gameplay, like the SA2 Bounce, or the Rebound Dash, or the Arc Jump, or any of the many abilities already mentioned on this thread.
__________________
What are you doing? Wait, stop, donít boop us! We arenít boop resistant!
Charonik08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #51
Unknownlight
 
Unknownlight's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
I'm a thok fan myself. I've been outspoken for quite some time about how I not only don't see a problem with it, but I would rather it didn't get shoved behind an unlock wall. It still mystifies me how they apparently have sufficient data that suggests that it's problematic to newcomers, as it's so simple in concept and should be common sense not to use it recklessly near bottomless pits.
You can watch playthroughs on youtube and see. MegaGWolf even has an episode called "BEGONE THOK" which is the point in his playthrough where he concludes that the thok hurts him more than it helps him.
Unknownlight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #52
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charonik08 View Post
I havenít tested this out, but it may be possible to use both addons at the same time. (talking about SA2 Bounce sense Derp is a separate character unless someone makes a custom Lua for Sonic using said ability) If youíd want it more to be just an air ability instead of a Shield and Air button ability than it could get more complicated than that, as it would then have to trigger the Rebound Dash... Dash whenever it registers your position to be next to a wall. I havenít delved into coding much myself, but it seems challenging enough and may not be so intuitive for newcomers who wouldnít notice at first glance that you can bounce off walls if youíre right next to them. Though I do think this would be so cool to see.
The way the Derp's bounce works at least is that you have to trigger the bounce. My idea is for you to be able to bounce or ricochet off walls while you're in "bounce mode".
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #53
Boost
Default

Quote:
SA2 Bounce
There is a tiny problem that Bounce move shares with Drop Dash: it requires a floor to operate. And this is not always available in the same "Tricky jumping over a pit" situation that was discussed so many times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345
If your game needs newcomers to sit and think really hard about the right way to use an ability, that's a high skill floor
If the newcomers are ragequitting because the game wants them to think before doing something stupid, that's called low brainpower, not high skill floor.
Boost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #54
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
If the newcomers are ragequitting because the game wants them to think before doing something stupid, that's called low brainpower, not high skill floor.
How would they know that they're doing something stupid? How are they supposed to know, without any sort of sign from the game, the correct way of using the thok? Why should SRB2 be the sort of game that requires a full on tutorial on how to properly use an ability for the basic mascot character of the game?

It is a high skill floor. "Low brainpower" isn't a factor here at all. Thinking isn't linear, it's lateral. You don't just assume people will dedicate time and energy into understanding how to think about using thok in a video game out of all places.

Quote:
There is a tiny problem that Bounce move shares with Drop Dash: it requires a floor to operate. And this is not always available in the same "Tricky jumping over a pit" situation that was discussed so many times.
This is why pairing it with something like the rebound dash is a good idea. There are always walls to bounce off of.
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #55
Charonik08
No Charks in this pool!
 
Charonik08's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
The way the Derp's bounce works at least is that you have to trigger the bounce. My idea is for you to be able to bounce or ricochet off walls while you're in "bounce mode".
Hmm I see. I can envision the gameplay for this and itís sounds great for Sonicís vertical movement while also maintaining the fast paced gameplay that Sonic as the fastest character on the cast is supposed to have. How does the Ricochet Dash sound? :í) Bad names aside, I do like the concept you bring to the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
How would they know that they're doing something stupid? How are they supposed to know, without any sort of sign from the game, the correct way of using the thok? Why should SRB2 be the sort of game that requires a full on tutorial on how to properly use an ability for the basic mascot character of the game?
This is also considering that the classic games also didnít have tutorials and let the player experiment with Sonicís high speeds. In there, the level design was fit for fast pace gameplay, while also allowing you to explore the zones and experiment with the speed. Like youíve said, the Thok isnít fit for this more fluid motion that all abilities should have. Therefore the mentality of thinking before doing an action with the Thok (a.k.a not going fast) feels forced rather than something you can come up with on the fly (like Sonic is portrayed to do). So I can definitely agree with you on this one.
__________________
What are you doing? Wait, stop, donít boop us! We arenít boop resistant!
Charonik08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #56
Boost
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345
How would they know that they're doing something stupid? How are they supposed to know, without any sort of sign from the game, the correct way of using the thok?
I mean, you'd probably be able to tell you're doing it wrong if you keep thokking into the same death pit over and over...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charonik08
This is also considering that the classic games also didn’t have tutorials and let the player experiment with Sonic’s high speeds
Yes and no. Classic games (pre-mania at least) have rather strict speed caps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345
This is why pairing it with something like the rebound dash is a good idea
Rebound Dash by itself can already achieve the goal you'd need bounce for: gaining height from bouncing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OP345
My idea is for you to be able to bounce or ricochet off walls while you're in "bounce mode"
Well, SRB2's levels are quite open but if you're thinking of something like the Ball ability from Kirby's Adventure/Nightmare in Dream Land (Turn into a ball that bounces from everything), it might have some difficulties with walls.

Last edited by Boost; 1 Week Ago at 07:52 PM.
Boost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #57
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
I mean, you'd probably be able to tell you're doing it wrong if you keep thokking into the same death pit over and over...
The problem is that it isn't the same death pit over and over. People, when playing SRB2, instead of experimenting with the thok just don't use it. They use it sometimes when they are absolutely sure that it'll work (which is not how it's supposed to be used nor is it how you get the skills necessary to exploit it) or when there is literally no other option.

So people just stop using the thok. They don't bother with it beyond times where they can't solve a problem without it. As a result, there is no experimentation. Even if they did experiment, there isn't any guarantee that they would think about it the way they're supposed to.
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #58
Charonik08
No Charks in this pool!
 
Charonik08's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
I mean, you'd probably be able to tell you're doing it wrong if you keep thokking into the same death pit over and over...
But then it becomes the problem of now, the player doesnít want to use the ability in fear of dying more trying to use the Thok. Like Unknownlight said, thereís play-throughs on YouTube that show players that use Sonic, realize that the Thok does more damage to them than not using it at all.
__________________
What are you doing? Wait, stop, donít boop us! We arenít boop resistant!
Charonik08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #59
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
There is a tiny problem that Bounce move shares with Drop Dash: it requires a floor to operate. And this is not always available in the same "Tricky jumping over a pit" situation that was discussed so many times.
The drop dash requires stretches of floor to operate, it works by launching you forward when you land. Bouncing only requires enough ground to stand on to launch you back up. Unless the ground is slanted in a way to specifically prevent you from bouncing in a direction that is helpful, it should be just as useful and more as just jumping regularly.

There's not always a wall in reach for Knuckles to grab onto over a bottomless pit or lava or etc. either, yet nobody uses that as a reason why he shouldn't have the glide. It could be used to help reach a bit of ground that might be out of reach with the jump, but the same could be said of the bounce.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #60
OP345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost View Post
Rebound Dash by itself can already achieve the goal you'd need bounce for: gaining height from bouncing.
No because it requires a wall to do so. The point isn't to just gain height, it's to give Sonic an ability that let's him have midair viability. Only allowing him to do so against walls would make him less viable.

Quote:
Well, SRB2's levels are quite open but if you're thinking of something like the Ball ability from Kirby's Adventure/Nightmare in Dream Land (Turn into a ball that bounces from everything), it might have some difficulties with walls.
I'm talking about something more like the Derp's ability if you've played him. Basically it's sort of like a "ground pound" but you bounce as a result of it so it's perfectly compatible with the rebound dash and what not.
OP345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.