Do you think Aerial Garden and Azure Temple are still salvageable?

I am very much against removing lives. At most, I would want an option to turn them off as a compromise, but removing them altogether? No.
 
I think the topic and consensus has been made w.r.t. AGZ, so I'll mostly provide a discussion piece on ATZ, though I apologize if it's a bit of a retread from earlier discussion

There's a lot I like about ATZ considering I went and made a kart map in homage to it. While I think many of the setpieces can provide a fairly interesting experience and it has a neat aesthetic, ATZ's design mentality is fairly archaic in nature and runs way too much on trial and error=death gameplay. Even though it may be the final "challenge" stage, it's mechanics, risk-reward systems and setpieces are introduced to the player with the maximum amount of punish possible and often discarded after being explored just a few times. If you are getting hit in ATZ, unless it's facetanking the gargoyles in the lower tunnels you are most likely going to die, and given the nuke shield/Tails Tunnel challenge it's very much played up intentionally.

And frankly, that's not really great, because instead of the player being able to learn more immediately from a mistake, they're instead sent back to a checkpoint and have to try and jump through the hoops again. HHZ even defies this by having the yoku block sections not kill you when you mess them up as they focus so much on memorization. Cutting the player back to a previous checkpoints reduces the player's ability to actually understand where their mistake was because they're dragged away from their current environment; it also increases the linearity of the level because it prevents more upper/lower path splits from being made.

The slow, water-logged pace of the level does not help either, nor does the lack of aesthetic variation. The moments where the level does open up a bit and include seafloor and sand, it's so little and so far between because you're heading right back into the same purple corridors. I can appreciate some parts of the level for using the more cavern-esque asethetic instead of the raw temple walling/flooring though.

Do I think ATZ is salvageable? To an extent, maybe. I think it's to a point where it'd be wiser to salvage the concepts and ideas of ATZ into something else entirely. The map does have quite a few different aspects and ideas to work with, like:
  • Sets of multiple Gargoyles shooting at the player in various patterns, allowing the player to take greater risk by not stopping at safe points and not worry about air as much
  • Branching paths with puzzles vs action, though while the action path could be perceived to be faster, it is realistically possible to finish the puzzles faster on repeat playthroughs in ATZ's current form
  • Fan jumps across several stretches of open space
  • Branching upper vs lower paths with different levels of risk
  • Rooms of moving platforms with the player tasked to heading to safe spots to avoid crossfire from Gargoyles
  • Clear and apparent leading lines to direct the player with the blue arches
  • Buggles introduce a threat zone where the player needs to avoid getting too close to them - unfortunately, this is extremely hard to ascertain because of the Buggles's current behavior of just moving immediately once you hit that threat zone & 3D environments
  • Pushing Gargoyles around to open up new paths and solve puzzles

In my opinion, ATZ in it's current form has both too much monotony for each of the concepts it does explore, but fails to mesh them together for a satisfying experience. It also relies too heavily on only punishing the player with, in most cases, the maximum amount of punishment the game can traditionally dole out, which reduces the learning curve to being straight frustration at deaths instead of being able to immediately try again or a slower path to take. I would hate to see the visual aesthetic and bare concepts go straight to waste, but I think there's less merit in trying to band aid some of ATZ's abject aspects as a map and far more worth in overhauling the stage from a conceptual level.

And, honestly, maybe the whole level doesn't need to be underwater, and the 64x64 block to block jumping doesn't need to stay.
 
I am very much against removing lives. At most, I would want an option to turn them off as a compromise, but removing them altogether? No.

Yeah, exactly like how Crash 4 will do things with the two options you have regarding lives. Which could include a bonus for clearing a level in the 'modern' version within a certain number of lives.
 
I am very much against removing lives. At most, I would want an option to turn them off as a compromise, but removing them altogether? No.
I second that, removing the life system would go against the core concept of a Sonic game (like Forces did and it was only one of many wrong things about this game).


Especially since Classic Sonic game were always challenging and arcade-oriented (whereas Sega decided to make the modern one more casual-oriented).
 
I am very much against removing lives. At most, I would want an option to turn them off as a compromise, but removing them altogether? No.

Yea. If lives are removed that completely eradicates the purpose for exploring. The way lives/continues function now is already quite generous and modern, I don't think it needs to change.

Regarding AG and AT; They both feel quite dated, and the former is particularly unfun. The best parts of SRB2 is when you get that flow going as you zip through already fairly tough levels, utilizing the unique physics engine to make huge jumps and such that wouldn't be possible in other 3D platformers. Aerial Garden just does not allow this, and the platforming just isn't fun nor does it take advantage of this game's unique controls.

Azure Temple I have a bit more respect for as a challenge stage, but that also doesn't take full advantage of the game's controls.

Both need to be retooled.
 
Do I think ATZ is salvageable? To an extent, maybe. I think it's to a point where it'd be wiser to salvage the concepts and ideas of ATZ into something else entirely. The map does have quite a few different aspects and ideas to work with, like...

I think I mostly agree with your take on ATZ as someone (apparently one of the few people here) who likes the level. But as to putting it into something else entirely... I feel like it's the same difference. By the time you clean it up, it's essentially being remade. I believe most of the 2.0 stages have gotten that treatment and that the remaining outliers are going to get that treatment by the next release. But if people are asking if its salvageable I take that to mean that there's things in there that are worth keeping, and I think your list is a good example that ATZ has several ideas worth refining and keeping around.

As for whether it still needs to be underwater, I think one advantage to the underwater is it makes maneuvering less slippery so you actually can dodge the fireballs and solve puzzles a little more methodically. I think you can still make it a little less punishing or cramped so that the sluggish water movement isn't so annoying, but I think it still needs to be underwater in order to pull off the gimmicks that make it special.
 
If ATZ is going to be remade, I think it'd be neat if the level had the player start in the depths of the ocean and gradually climb up through the temple, reaching the surface and finally escaping the water just before the level ends. A moment of running around on dry land again would feel really satisfying after spending a long, difficult level submerged non-stop.
 
If ATZ is going to be remade, I think it'd be neat if the level had the player start in the depths of the ocean and gradually climb up through the temple, reaching the surface and finally escaping the water just before the level ends. A moment of running around on dry land again would feel really satisfying after spending a long, difficult level submerged non-stop.
That's a pretty good idea! I think giving a sense of progression and making it further through the temple would make ATZ feel like much less of a drag, especially if the very end is above water.
 
If that happens, it'd be cool to see the colormap change to be lighter over time, since you're getting closer to the shore.
 
I don't see any major problems with ATZ in its current state. All I think it really needs is a graphical overhaul and maybe some slopes.
 
On one hand, I really don't want content removed just because someone isn't on the team any more. I hate it when internal politics affects a project. On the other hand...

I've always HATED Aerial Garden Zone. Even before the bees. Those godawful things. I understand it's supposed to be a hard level to challenge your skills, but I always find myself running in circles, having trouble finding the way forward. Those narrow platforms over bottomless pits are so frustrating, especially when trying to get that Fang exclusive emblem. The idea of a floating temple sounds good in principle, but I think it needs an overhaul. I just don't have fun playing it.

As for Azure Temple, I think it's mostly fine. You could tweak it a little bit, but I think it mostly fine as it is. It's difficult, but I've never rage quit the level, unlike Aerial Garden. It definitely helps that there is a hidden puzzle path that lets you skip some of the more challenging platforming sections. One thing I would change, though, are those narrow hallways with those statues that shoot lasers at you. There's this one part you cannot avoid, where they fire both behind and in front of you at the same time, and I do not understand how you avoid getting hit. I usually find myself just taking a hit and using the invincibility frames to GTFO ASAP. Please, provide some place to take cover or something. I'm fine with timing based platforming, but the way it is now, it just feels like it's mostly luck. Especially with that bottomless pit right in the middle. I mean, really? Even purposefully taking a hit risks falling to my doom, if I'm too close to the edge.

Now, there are some ideas I've seen people bring up that sound pretty nice. I particularly like the idea of working your way up to the surface, with dry land as your reward at the end. That kind of relief would be second only to finding that elemental shield in the middle of the level.
 
Never liked Aerial Garden, was never part of original plans, and only in Mystic Realm. When I saw it in 2.2, I wondered why it was there... it should stay a part of Mystic Realm.

Ditto for Azure Temple. It should move to Mystic Realm as an extra stage or something.
Mystic doesn't make good single player stages. His bread and butter was always match/CTF arenas.
 
Azure Temple is boring, and I dislike the hazards coming around the corner while you're stuck trying to control your mid-air momentum gained from fans. Also, screw those cramped section with tiny pits and flame projectiles. Plus, object pushing puzzles can die in every game ever. SRB2 physics aren't made for any of these things. Mystic usually designs his levels around the physics quite well, so it confuses me how hard he could've screwed that up there.

That said, it is also the only "true" water level and one of the few stages that isn't a joke for Tails/Knux. I think it's unique and worth keeping in for that alone, maybe with some edits.


That said, I do despise the idea of something being old also automatically being "bad". The blockiness is very much intentional and part of the Arial Garden design, and while it could still use graphical updates in the form of more textures and sky-based scenery, it's actually refreshing to see a focus on pure gameplay rather than another level oversaturated with two or three quirky gimmicks.

It's main issue if anything is what it added in 2.2. The bees. I don't mean thematically, that's not as important. I mean what they do for gameplay. SRB2 has never asked you to get good at scoping out your surroundings while doing precision platforming, yet players have to learn it here under pressure. All it does is make things harder for newbies than they need to be while barely changing anything for longtime players. Maybe it's meant to screw Tails and Knux players?

With an enemy revamp and perhaps some graphical updates, AGZ still fits. I'd find it a shame to lose that level's scope and ambition.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with the bees if:

1. The hive didn't spawn SO MANY. Or...

2. The bees were automatically destroyed after destroying the hive they came out of. For this part, I don't know for sure if it's possible, if the game tracks which bees come from which hive. But if it is possible, it'd make them a lot less annoying. But what I find myself doing a lot is either gunning right after the hives to destroy them ASAP, and then having to deal with dozen bees swarming around me. Or ignoring them entirely and just running by them.

PS: I never heard of Mystic Realm, so I looked it up. So it was originally a level pack made by Mystic? It doesn't look like there's a 2.2 version of it up yet. So if the levels are removed in a future update, and Mystic is gone, those levels would be gone for good, right? I don't care much for Aerial Garden Zone, but I really want Azure Temple to stay.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with the bees if:

1. The hive didn't spawn SO MANY. Or...

2. The bees were automatically destroyed after destroying the hive they came out of. For this part, I don't know for sure if it's possible, if the game tracks which bees come from which hive. But if it is possible, it'd make them a lot less annoying. But what I find myself doing a lot is either gunning right after the hives to destroy them ASAP, and then having to deal with dozen bees swarming around me. Or ignoring them entirely and just running by them.

PS: I never heard of Mystic Realm, so I looked it up. So it was originally a level pack made by Mystic? It doesn't look like there's a 2.2 version of it up yet. So if the levels are removed in a future update, and Mystic is gone, those levels would be gone for good, right? I don't care much for Aerial Garden Zone, but I really want Azure Temple to stay.
Mystic Realm does have a 2.2 version, you can find it on mystic.srb2.org. To my knowledge, it's mostly the same as prior versions and still doesn't have slopes.
 
Yea. If lives are removed that completely eradicates the purpose for exploring. The way lives/continues function now is already quite generous and modern, I don't think it needs to change.
The game currently has a core game loop that rewards exploration with lives and rings (partial lives). Removing lives means rethinking that game loop. It's not an impossible question to answer, but it would take a lot of work -- both in design and implementation.

I agree that the game is completely functional as it is now.

Mystic Realm does have a 2.2 version, you can find it on mystic.srb2.org.
Thanks for the tip.
 
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Let's remind that Super Mario 64, the game that defined the entire 3D platformer genre, never had any precise platforming sections at all because Nintendo knew that 3D wasn't suited for that kind of thing.


This is why I think that the Null Space mod is also bad because it's not suited for SRB2.

I wouldn't go as far as to say 3D (in general) isn't suited for precise platforming, i think it more so has to do with the controls for the game and how it's constructed around them. SM64 was designed around controls similar to the "simple" style in this game, and those controls by their nature aren't designed well for precise platforming. Strafe controls on the other hand, provide control for precise platforming; the game "Cloudbuilt" was designed around strafe controls, and plays well with that given it's precise platfoming sections.

I think with SRB2, while the game originally is designed around Strafe controls (which can help make going through levels like that easier), the core of the game now has design expectations that are based around similar concepts of classic sonic games (slopes and momentum to an extent), so even with those controls, it's unreasonable to expect players to go through levels that have that as a focus. That, and since the game also has the "Simple" control scheme, levels like that are further unreasonable for those that use it.
 
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Honestly just take the names, aesthetics, music, and make a new level around them. Both levels have good potential concept wise, and it would be a shame wasting it. They aged like moldy trash anyway.
 
Never liked Aerial Garden, was never part of original plans, and only in Mystic Realm. When I saw it in 2.2, I wondered why it was there... it should stay a part of Mystic Realm.

Ditto for Azure Temple. It should move to Mystic Realm as an extra stage or something.
Mystic doesn't make good single player stages. His bread and butter was always match/CTF arenas.
Grand Eggship and Dark City were a part of your plan since the beginning of SRB2's development right? I would gladly trade those two bonus levels for real stages from the normal game honestly.


When SRB2 will finally be completed I'd be fine with seeing AGZ and ATZ being removed.
 

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